the actual body of Christ.

[xmydreamsfadex]

i was up early yesterday morning watching some guy talk about the reformers and how great their work against transubstantiation was. the same guy at the end of the show started talking about accepting Jesus as your personal saviour and all that, and talked about how the Holy Spirit has the power to change people on the inside, comparing it to someone making a pot from clay.
so, my question is, why do protestants believe that the Holy Spirit has the power to “mold” people into something better, but can’t change a piece of bread or some wine into the ACTUAL Body and Blood of Christ? how or why is it a symbol?
growing up, i don’t remember ever hearing about this subject. at my baptist church, it was usually something against Mary.

 

[someotherguy]

i was up early yesterday morning watching some guy talk about the reformers and how great their work against transubstantiation was. the same guy at the end of the show started talking about accepting Jesus as your personal saviour and all that, and talked about how the Holy Spirit has the power to change people on the inside, comparing it to someone making a pot from clay.
so, my question is, why do protestants believe that the Holy Spirit has the power to “mold” people into something better, but can’t change a piece of bread or some wine into the ACTUAL Body and Blood of Christ? how or why is it a symbol?
growing up, i don’t remember ever hearing about this subject. at my baptist church, it was usually something against Mary.

Why does the body of Christ need to keep being re-sacrificed when the Bible says that He was already sacrificed, once and for all?

 

[Johndigger]

Why does the body of Christ need to keep being re-sacrificed when the Bible says that He was already sacrificed, once and for all?

Straw man. Christ is not re-sacrificed.

I will gladly recant my point, however, if you show me the Catholic source from which you got this.

Of course, Christ was sacrificed once and for all. Just once. And that one time has enough grace to sanctify the whole world a million million times over.

Not all of this grace is having an effect on the world, though, as people refuse it through sin and disbelief.

The Mass is all about offering up our petitions and praise through Christ on the cross, as he is made truly present.

JD

 

[someotherguy]

Straw man. Christ is not re-sacrificed.

Then why does CCC 1365 say that the eucharist is a sacrifice?

Of course, Christ was sacrificed once and for all. Just once. And that one time has enough grace to sanctify the whole world a million million times over.

That’s what I thought until I read CCC 1365.

The Mass is all about offering up our petitions and praise through Christ on the cross, as he is made truly present.

Christ is on the cross at your mass?

 

[joeybaggz]

Why does the body of Christ need to keep being re-sacrificed when the Bible says that He was already sacrificed, once and for all?

Don’t know how many times I’ve said this in how many threads, but the Mass is a “re-presentation” of the sacrifice of Christ.
We don’t kill Jesus again.

There are two things Protestant preachers have to deny about Catholic belief, one the Primacy of Peter and the apostolic priesthood of the Catholic Church, and two, the validity of the Catholic Eucharist. Admit either one is true, correct, or valid, and the Protestant position is in deep doo-doo.

 

[someotherguy]

Don’t know how many times I’ve said this in how many threads, but the Mass is a “re-presentation” of the sacrifice of Christ.
We don’t kill Jesus again.

OK, I was just going by what your own source said.

 

[jmcrae]

Then why does CCC 1365 say that the eucharist is a sacrifice?

Bread and wine is sacrificed on the Altar. It goes up to Heaven and is exchanged for the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ in His eternal sacrifice on the Cross.

Christ is on the cross at your mass?

His Sacrifice on the Cross, which is eternal, is made present at the moment of time that we call the Mass, yes.

 

[someotherguy]

Bread and wine is sacrificed on the Altar.

I thought you believed that the bread and wine was the literal body of Christ.

His Sacrifice on the Cross, which is eternal, is made present at the moment of time that we call the Mass, yes.

So, even though Christ was resurrected and ascended into Heaven, you put Him back on the cross in your mass? Why?

What scripture do you have to support this?

 

[Johndigger]

Then why does CCC 1365 say that the eucharist is a sacrifice?

Because it’s the same sacrifice. Not a new one. That same sacrifice transported through time.

So, even though Christ was resurrected and ascended into Heaven, you put Him back on the cross in your mass? Why?

Christ resurrected and ascended are also present as the Eucharist.

We are transported to the foot of the cross in Mass. Heaven meets earth, it is truly a wonderful and beautiful experience.

In terms of scriptural backing, there is plenty. I’ll get the ball rolling with this.
Luke 22:19:

This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me.

Christ’s says the bread IS his body. It will be given to us on the cross. And we are called to remember it.

We are not just called to remember Christ ascended and glorified, but also his body that is “given for us.”

This is what we do at Holy Mass. It’s not sacrilegious. It’s not idol-worship. It’s the Lord.

But please, don’t take my word for it. Go to your nearest Catholic Church, attend a Mass and see for yourself!

God bless!

JD

 

[someotherguy]

Because it’s the same sacrifice. Not a new one. That same sacrifice transported through time.

JD

I see. So then, you’re not making a new sacrifice, you’re just redoing the old one over and over?

 

[Nancyannheath]

It IS the actual body of Christ, the wine is the actual blood of Christ.
zenit.org/article-12933?l=english

 

[Gamera]

Then why does CCC 1365 say that the eucharist is a sacrifice?

That’s what I thought until I read CCC 1365.

Christ is on the cross at your mass?

Let’s not paraphrase.

1. Because it the the memorial of Christ’s Passover, the Eucharist is also a sacrifice. The sacrificial character of the Eucharist is manifested in the very words of institution: “This is my body which is given for you” and “This cup which is poured out for you is the New Covenant in my blood.” In the Eucharist Christ gives us the very body which he gave up for us on the cross, the very blood which he “poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”
2. The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: “The victim is one and the same; the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different.” “In this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner.” (emphasis in original).

 

[jmcrae]

I thought you believed that the bread and wine was the literal body of Christ.

No. What we believe is that the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ has the appearance of bread and wine.

 

[someotherguy]

No. What we believe is that the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ has the appearance of bread and wine.

Really??? A Roman Catholic who doesn’t believe that the bread and wine are the literal flesh and blood of Christ?

Well, that’s certainly different from what I was taught.

 

[someotherguy]

Let’s not paraphrase.

1. Because it the the memorial of Christ’s Passover, the Eucharist is also a sacrifice. The sacrificial character of the Eucharist is manifested in the very words of institution: “This is my body which is given for you” and “This cup which is poured out for you is the New Covenant in my blood.” In the Eucharist Christ gives us the very body which he gave up for us on the cross, the very blood which he “poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”

And why is Christ giving you His body?

1. The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: “The victim is one and the same; the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different.” “In this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner.” (emphasis in original).

If it’s “one single sacrifice”, then why are you doing it every week?

 

[Gamera]

I see. So then, you’re not making a new sacrifice, you’re just redoing the old one over and over?

No, not ‘redoing.’ Re-presenting.

 

[Johndigger]

I see. So then, you’re not making a new sacrifice, you’re just redoing the old one over and over?

Not quite. If you got into a time-machine and went to watch and pray at Our Lord being crucified and you offered up prayers at the foot of the cross.

Would that be the same thing as you re-sacrificing him?

Well, this is exactly what happens at Mass, except it’s Christ that is transported to us. It’s not a re-sacrifice. It’s the same sacrifice made present in our times.

It is an incredible and beautiful thing.

JD

 

[jmcrae]

Really??? A Roman Catholic who doesn’t believe that the bread and wine are the literal flesh and blood of Christ?

After the Consecration there is no bread and wine anymore. It’s Jesus, but He just looks, tastes, and smells like bread and wine.

Well, that’s certainly different from what I was taught.

I have no way of knowing what you were taught, or how old you were at the time. If you were a child, you may have inferred that the bread and wine simply “took on” Jesus at some point, and there are Catechists out there who teach as though this were the case, but the actual teaching of the Church is that the bread and wine is gone, to be completely and exactly replaced by Jesus Himself.

 

[Gamera]

Really??? A Roman Catholic who doesn’t believe that the bread and wine are the literal flesh and blood of Christ?

Well, that’s certainly different from what I was taught.

You missed what he said. You keep asking whether we believe “the bread and wine” are Christ’s body and blood. Once consecrated, the items no longer are “bread and wine” at all. So no, we don’t believe that bread and wine “are” Christ’s body and blood.

 

[someotherguy]

Not quite. If you got into a time-machine and went to watch and pray at Our Lord being crucified and you offered up prayers at the foot of the cross.

Would that be the same thing as you re-sacrificing him?

In all my years attending mass, I don’t recall ever getting into a time machine. In fact, I’m pretty sure each mass was a new and seperate event from the last one.

Well, this is exactly what happens at Mass, except it’s Christ that is transported to us. It’s not a re-sacrifice. It’s the same sacrifice made present in our times.

So then, even though the Bible tells us that Christ rose from the grave and ascended to Heaven, you’re telling me that He’s stuck in some sort of Star Trek-like infinite loop, destined to remain on the cross?