The Allure of Mormonism-Get Under the Surface

[iepuras]

OK - so exploring the PR vs reality a bit…

I have a friend from work here - he’s very fully LDS. We have lunch at times together. The warm and fuzzy vernier was stripped off when I relayed an experience where something somewhat miraculous happened dealing with my now-adult past foster child. My past foster child is still a mess - frequently in jail, but I was expressing to my Mormon friend how odd it was the God seemed to go to great lengths to help my past foster child out of a potentially harmful situation. I asserted that God must have a big plan for this person, and I looked forward to seeing how that will unfold. My Mormon friend said that the real reason my past foster child was given any help was only so that God later could rub it in his face. “See!” my friend said that God would say to my past foster child, “I tried to help you and you just threw it all away!” My friend’s demeanor changed dramatically during this episode, but it did at least let me know what he thinks about the true nature of God.

Would you say this is a common theme, then? The appearance of a wonderful experience, but then later find out God is mostly vengeful? Does this vengeful God scare people into behaving a certain way??

Many Mormons will appear nice and friendly but they can be judgmental (although this is not unique to Mormonism). Or they lose interest in friendship if you make it clear you are not interested in converting.

There is a certain standard or expectation of behavior, and if someone is different, there is something wrong with that person. There is a reason why the per capita suicide rate in Utah is so high. Anti-depressant usage is also very high in Utah. As a woman, it can be difficult to live up to the expectations of being the perfect stay at home wife and mother. Heaven forbid a woman wants to be educated, not get married by age 21, and work outside the home! I was an old maid at age 22 and shunned as a working mom in a suburban ward.

Mormons talk a good game about families and tout eternal families, but the price is high. Church leaders, especially the bishop are kept away from their families doing pastoral work for the ward on top of his day job. In order to be sealed in the temple as an eternal family, one is required to pay 10% of income, no matter how great the hardship. If anyone in the family is not a faithful Mormon, that person is excluded from the eternal family in the celestial kingdom. Apostacy is the greatest sin and "apostate " family members are excluded. Eternal families also means eternal polygamy and eternal pregnancy with spirit babies. Most Mormons refuse to acknowledge that reality of their doctrine. I love my children but would not want to share my husband and be pregnant all the time.

There are many good Mormons but their goodness has nothing to do with Mormonism. All my family are very much Mormon. They are good people and I love them. My leaving Mormonism has caused a rift in our family. I am lucky in that our relationship is relatively good, but is has not been easy. I know many ex Mormons who have lost their families due to unbelief in Mormonism.

There is a reason why Mormons are all about milk before meat. The leaders don’t want anyone scratching the surface because when they do, they leave.

 

[LivingWaters7]

As I understand it the hospital is not allowed to contact anyone regarding your hospital stay. HIPAA rules are rather stringent about these issues aren’t they?

Indeed. We try not to even give too much information over the phone.

But I just thought his mentioning this was weird. It was obviously mentioned to demonstrate some sort of contrast between the LDS, who showed up to offer a blessing, and the Catholics, who didn’t show up even though they put Catholic on the paperwork, whatever he thinks that’s supposed to do. But what’s odd is that, if he was Catholic at this point, why didn’t he contact his parish priest and request Anointing of the Sick (although I’m sure once he told his priest the situation, he would immediately come over anyway, as any good priest would), as his beliefs would dictate (I know my Catholic parents would have done so immediately if I became sick when I was young)?

A review of the entire book will be done within 2 weeks.

 

[LivingWaters7]

If you haven’t seen it…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=464370&highlight=Shuster

Oh this looks like it’ll be amusing.

 

[in_servitude]

There is a reason why the per capita suicide rate in Utah is so high. Anti-depressant usage is also very high in Utah. As a woman, it can be difficult to live up to the expectations of being the perfect stay at home wife and mother. Heaven forbid a woman wants to be educated, not get married by age 21, and work outside the home! I was an old maid at age 22 and shunned as a working mom in a suburban ward.

This is something that is not understood by people outside the Mormon culture. It is remarkably well hidden, frankly.

Mormons talk a good game about families and tout eternal families, but the price is high. Church leaders, especially the bishop are kept away from their families doing pastoral work for the ward on top of his day job. In order to be sealed in the temple as an eternal family, one is required to pay 10% of income, no matter how great the hardship. If anyone in the family is not a faithful Mormon, that person is excluded from the eternal family in the celestial kingdom. Apostacy is the greatest sin and "apostate " family members are excluded

It is for this reason that I hold Mormon converts to Christianity in the highest esteem.

Eternal families also means eternal polygamy and eternal pregnancy with spirit babies. Most Mormons refuse to acknowledge that reality of their doctrine. I love my children but would not want to share my husband and be pregnant all the time.

Hmmm… That is certainly interesting. I knew of the basic concept, but had not formulated the reality like that.

There are many good Mormons but their goodness has nothing to do with Mormonism. All my family are very much Mormon. They are good people and I love them. My leaving Mormonism has caused a rift in our family. I am lucky in that our relationship is relatively good, but is has not been easy. I know many ex Mormons who have lost their families due to unbelief in Mormonism.

There is a reason why Mormons are all about milk before meat. The leaders don’t want anyone scratching the surface because when they do, they leave.

They have quite a few defense mechanisms built into the faith. I’m aware that families take turns standing up in front of the ward and take their turn in affirming their belief that the LDS faith is the one true faith. Once a person makes that kind of stand, it is difficult to turn back on it.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Indeed. We try not to even give too much information over the phone.

But I just thought his mentioning this was weird. It was obviously mentioned to demonstrate some sort of contrast between the LDS, who showed up to offer a blessing, and the Catholics, who didn’t show up even though they put Catholic on the paperwork, whatever he thinks that’s supposed to do. But what’s odd is that, if he was Catholic at this point, why didn’t he contact his parish priest and request Anointing of the Sick (although I’m sure once he told his priest the situation, he would immediately come over anyway, as any good priest would), as his beliefs would dictate (I know my Catholic parents would have done so immediately if I became sick when I was young)?

A review of the entire book will be done within 2 weeks.

re: Anointing of the Sick, a lot of Catholics believe this is only for one time in your life, as Last Rites, for someone who faces imminent death.

 

[gazelam]

Actually, becoming aquainted with God is the real allure of Mormonism…

From a talk entitled “The Refiner’s Fire” located at: lds.org/general-conference/1979/04/the-refiners-fire?lang=eng

Some years ago President David O. McKay told from this pulpit of the experience of some of those in the Martin handcart company. Many of these early converts had emigrated from Europe and were too poor to buy oxen or horses and a wagon. They were forced by their poverty to pull handcarts containing all of their belongings across the plains by their own brute strength. President McKay relates an occurrence which took place some years after the heroic exodus: “A teacher, conducting a class, said it was unwise ever to attempt, even to permit them [the Martin handcart company] to come across the plains under such conditions.

“[According to a class member,] some sharp criticism of the Church and its leaders was being indulged in for permitting any company of converts to venture across the plains with no more supplies or protection than a handcart caravan afforded.

“An old man in the corner … sat silent and listened as long as he could stand it, then he arose and said things that no person who heard him will ever forget. His face was white with emotion, yet he spoke calmly, deliberately, but with great earnestness and sincerity.

“In substance [he] said, ‘I ask you to stop this criticism. You are discussing a matter you know nothing about. Cold historic facts mean nothing here, for they give no proper interpretation of the questions involved. Mistake to send the Handcart Company out so late in the season? Yes. But I was in that company and my wife was in it and Sister Nellie Unthank whom you have cited was there, too. We suffered beyond anything you can imagine and many died of exposure and starvation, but did you ever hear a survivor of that company utter a word of criticism? Not one of that company ever apostatized or left the Church, because everyone of us came through with the absolute knowledge that God lives for we became acquainted with him in our extremities.
“‘I have pulled my handcart when I was so weak and weary from illness and lack of food that I could hardly put one foot ahead of the other. I have looked ahead and seen a patch of sand or a hill slope and I have said, I can go only that far and there I must give up, for I cannot pull the load through it.’” He continues: “‘I have gone on to that sand and when I reached it, the cart began pushing me. I have looked back many times to see who was pushing my cart, but my eyes saw no one. I knew then that the angels of God were there.

“‘Was I sorry that I chose to come by handcart? No. Neither then nor any minute of my life since. The price we paid to become acquainted with God was a privilege to pay, and I am thankful that I was privileged to come in the Martin Handcart Company.

 

[LivingWaters7]

re: Anointing of the Sick, a lot of Catholics believe this is only for one time in your life, as Last Rites, for someone who faces imminent death.

That is very true. However, I think the situation described in the book is different from your everyday Catholic (who may or may not know the development in the use of the sacrament, as well as its distinction from Last Rites (i.e. the group of sacraments)) for two reasons:

1. He makes it a point to demonstrate his and his wife’s “Catholic credentials”, meaning, that they weren’t just Mass for an hour on Sunday and that’s it Catholics, but had Catholic families, were involved in Catholic life, his wife has an undergrad degree in Catholic theology, etc.
2. Even if they thought Anointing of the Sick was only if the person is facing imminent death (he says their child contracted viral meningitis and was seriously ill, however), it still is odd that they didn’t contact their priest, their pastor, in this serious situation. Then, they readily accepted a religious ritual from a faith not theirs.

It really doesn’t make sense to me, and I don’t see it as a valid subtle critique, since that’s why he brought the issue up anyway (the Mormons came, the Catholics didn’t, even though we checked off the Catholic box on the paperwork).

Anyway, I don’t want to labor the point, since it’s relatively minor in the greater work. I just felt like pointing it out to show how I’m not impressed by it from the very beginning.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Actually, becoming aquainted with God is the real allure of Mormonism…

Catholics would say the same thing (and presumably members of other faiths), wouldn’t they? So I personally don’t see that as something distinct.

 

[in_servitude]

Not one of that company ever apostatized or left the Church, because everyone of us came through with the absolute knowledge that God lives for we became acquainted with him in our extremities.

But, why would any Mormon need any other experience than the burning in the bosom? Once they pray for it, and receive it, what need of any other sign is there?

Why do people “apostatize” today? I presume that they also have had the indelible memory of their bosom burning, so it wouldn’t make much sense that they would ever leave.

 

[TexanKnight]

Actually, becoming aquainted with God is the real allure of Mormonism…

maybe…but not the TRUE God…the lds god was once a sinful man…new members never hear about that…if honesty prevailed, joining would be rare. No, the true allure is what I said it was.

as to your story…most of those were unaware of the truth…unaware that js was a convicted con man, unaware of the bank scandal, the polygamy, or the wife-swapping. It is sad that your church depends on dishonesty to be alluring…
.

 

[RebeccaJ]

That is very true. However, I think the situation described in the book is different from your everyday Catholic (who may or may not know the development in the use of the sacrament, as well as its distinction from Last Rites (i.e. the group of sacraments)) for two reasons:

1. He makes it a point to demonstrate his and his wife’s “Catholic credentials”, meaning, that they weren’t just Mass for an hour on Sunday and that’s it Catholics, but had Catholic families, were involved in Catholic life, his wife has an undergrad degree in Catholic theology, etc.
2. Even if they thought Anointing of the Sick was only if the person is facing imminent death (he says their child contracted viral meningitis and was seriously ill, however), it still is odd that they didn’t contact their priest, their pastor, in this serious situation. Then, they readily accepted a religious ritual from a faith not theirs.

It really doesn’t make sense to me, and I don’t see it as a valid subtle critique, since that’s why he brought the issue up anyway (the Mormons came, the Catholics didn’t, even though we checked off the Catholic box on the paperwork).

Anyway, I don’t want to labor the point, since it’s relatively minor in the greater work. I just felt like pointing it out to show how I’m not impressed by it from the very beginning.

Actually, I didn’t mean that as a defense of the authors. You’d think someone who is presenting credentials as an educated Catholic, would know the Sacraments. Their meanings, their usage, their history, etc.

However, Catholics who are pre-VII in their catechesis, and have not kept up with all things Catholic (ie, lapsed or apostate) may not be familiar with the usage of the Sacrament of Anointing as more than available at Last Rites.

At any rate, the audience for this book is an LDS audience, and the majority of LDS members will be none the wiser. The authors could claim anything they like about being Catholic, and the LDS audience will soak it up.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Actually, becoming aquainted with God is the real allure of Mormonism…

From a talk entitled “The Refiner’s Fire” located at: lds.org/general-conference/1979/04/the-refiners-fire?lang=eng

Some years ago President David O. McKay told from this pulpit of the experience of some of those in the Martin handcart company. Many of these early converts had emigrated from Europe and were too poor to buy oxen or horses and a wagon. They were forced by their poverty to pull handcarts containing all of their belongings across the plains by their own brute strength. President McKay relates an occurrence which took place some years after the heroic exodus: “A teacher, conducting a class, said it was unwise ever to attempt, even to permit them [the Martin handcart company] to come across the plains under such conditions.

“[According to a class member,] some sharp criticism of the Church and its leaders was being indulged in for permitting any company of converts to venture across the plains with no more supplies or protection than a handcart caravan afforded.

“An old man in the corner … sat silent and listened as long as he could stand it, then he arose and said things that no person who heard him will ever forget. His face was white with emotion, yet he spoke calmly, deliberately, but with great earnestness and sincerity.

“In substance [he] said, ‘I ask you to stop this criticism. You are discussing a matter you know nothing about. Cold historic facts mean nothing here, for they give no proper interpretation of the questions involved. Mistake to send the Handcart Company out so late in the season? Yes. But I was in that company and my wife was in it and Sister Nellie Unthank whom you have cited was there, too. We suffered beyond anything you can imagine and many died of exposure and starvation, but did you ever hear a survivor of that company utter a word of criticism? Not one of that company ever apostatized or left the Church, because everyone of us came through with the absolute knowledge that God lives for we became acquainted with him in our extremities.
“‘I have pulled my handcart when I was so weak and weary from illness and lack of food that I could hardly put one foot ahead of the other. I have looked ahead and seen a patch of sand or a hill slope and I have said, I can go only that far and there I must give up, for I cannot pull the load through it.’” He continues: “‘I have gone on to that sand and when I reached it, the cart began pushing me. I have looked back many times to see who was pushing my cart, but my eyes saw no one. I knew then that the angels of God were there.

“‘Was I sorry that I chose to come by handcart? No. Neither then nor any minute of my life since. The price we paid to become acquainted with God was a privilege to pay, and I am thankful that I was privileged to come in the Martin Handcart Company.

Doesn’t change the fact that a HUGE mistake was made, and that someone is liable for that mistake.

Go ahead and run across an interstate highway tonight with your entire family, wearing all black. It’s OK, some of you may die, but God will protect some, and those who survive will come through with greater faith.

 

[PaulDupre1]

If you haven’t seen it…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=464370&highlight=Shuster

What that thread showed me is that Shuster knows very little about Catholicism or Mormonism. This guy keeps repeating the same old LDS canards about the Catholic Church rejecting the notion of continuing revelation after several very good explanations of the Catholic position from the CCC and cites from the bible. This smacks of lying for The Lord.

Truly pathetic, but the usual thing from Mormons.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

 

[gazelam]

But, why would any Mormon need any other experience than the burning in the bosom? Once they pray for it, and receive it, what need of any other sign is there?

Why do people “apostatize” today? I presume that they also have had the indelible memory of their bosom burning, so it wouldn’t make much sense that they would ever leave.

You seem very sincere in your question, in_servitude. The best answer I can give comes from the Good Book.

In Matthew 24:24, Jesus tells us that the last days that some of the very Elect of God of God will be deceived by signs and wonders.

(KJV) For there shall rise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The Lord’s explanation of the Parable of the Sower is also very insightful in explaining that some will fall away because of persecution, tribulation, personal offense, or too many cares of the world.

Matthew 13:18-22 (KJV)

18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.

19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

Also, I would note that Peter became stronger over time. Even thought Peter was frequently in the presence of Jesus, The Savior still spoke of a future time when Peter would be converted.

Luke 22:32 (KJV) But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

I hope this helps.

 

[Porknpie]

Catholics would say the same thing (and presumably members of other faiths), wouldn’t they? So I personally don’t see that as something distinct.

LW - is there not a difference here? LDS having a level of knowledge but not a deep, personal relationship?

And which God from a LDS perspective? Does this imply the Father but not the Son and Holy Spirit?

 

[TexanKnight]

You seem very sincere in your question, in_servitude. The best answer I can give comes from the Good Book.

In Matthew 24:24, Jesus tells us that the last days that some of the very Elect of God of God will be deceived by signs and wonders.

And that, in one sentence, explains the lure of Mormonism. The good people in the lds church are deceived.

(KJV) For there shall rise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

and that, in one sentence, defines js. a convicted conman who designed a god that was once a sinful man

The Lord’s explanation of the Parable of the Sower is also very insightful in explaining that some will fall away because of persecution, tribulation, personal offense, or too many cares of the world.

and that, in one parable, explains how the lds people have fallen away from the True God

 

[Petaro]

I have had many a happy hour discussing their religion with a number of young, well dressed young men on their yearly evangelization tour over here in Australia. They are often lovely Americans who are very ardent and well versed in set piece theology. They have even brought films for me to watch. I love to offer them a coffee and cake. (I am so bad!) But for all their weird religion and the wealth behind it (Always suspect a religion that wants 10% of your income); they are terribly naive. I feel very protective of them and wish I had their evangelical zeal. I only debate them for hours to stop them from meeting my neighbours. But they are so ardent, there is something very likeable about them.
One year I was advertising for an office worker. I was called by a recruitment company that gave free references for their applicants. They were from the Mormon Church and were helping their people who had a few problems. They never told me as an employer of these problems and I found I employed a schizophrenic. He was a great bloke but eventually went off his meds and ended up in a mental hospital. I had a copy of the Book of Mormon so I took it along when I visited him in hospital . Unfortunately he was in an acute stage so I was not permitted to see him . I met him years later, still an outpatient. However that is another story.
But their attempt to help a bloke that would probably find it difficult to get employment impressed me, in spite of their obvious duplicity. Who am I to judge given most employers refusal to employ the mentally ill.
I look at Stephen Smith; Angel Maroni revelation etc, the peculiar view on women and marriage and sigh. However, as I have said before, who am I who believe in Transubstantiation to judge others’ belief? No their strength lies in their social cohesion and support; a virtue lacking from most Catholic parishes I have been associated with.
Good Men and women who deserve our prayers.

 

[TexanKnight]

You seem very sincere in your question, in_servitude. The best answer I can give comes from the Good Book.

In Matthew 24:24, Jesus tells us that the last days that some of the very Elect of God of God will be deceived by signs and wonders.

(KJV) For there shall rise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The Lord’s explanation of the Parable of the Sower is also very insightful in explaining that some will fall away because of persecution, tribulation, personal offense, or too many cares of the world.

Matthew 13:18-22 (KJV)

18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.

19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

Also, I would note that Peter became stronger over time. Even thought Peter was frequently in the presence of Jesus, The Savior still spoke of a future time when Peter would be converted.

Luke 22:32 (KJV) But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

I hope this helps.

not hard to figure out that, since Jesus was talking to the original Christians, that his warnings were about people like js and ellen white, etc

 

[RebeccaJ]

OK - so exploring the PR vs reality a bit…

I have a friend from work here - he’s very fully LDS. We have lunch at times together. The warm and fuzzy vernier was stripped off when I relayed an experience where something somewhat miraculous happened dealing with my now-adult past foster child. My past foster child is still a mess - frequently in jail, but I was expressing to my Mormon friend how odd it was the God seemed to go to great lengths to help my past foster child out of a potentially harmful situation. I asserted that God must have a big plan for this person, and I looked forward to seeing how that will unfold. My Mormon friend said that the real reason my past foster child was given any help was only so that God later could rub it in his face. “See!” my friend said that God would say to my past foster child, “I tried to help you and you just threw it all away!” My friend’s demeanor changed dramatically during this episode, but it did at least let me know what he thinks about the true nature of God.

Would you say this is a common theme, then? The appearance of a wonderful experience, but then later find out God is mostly vengeful? Does this vengeful God scare people into behaving a certain way??

Original Sin is a doctrine that Mormonism has rejected, so while all of Christianity understands sin and suffering as undesirable, we understand that God allows sin and suffering and will use both for His own good. We don’t believe God creates sin or suffering just to test us. We also believe that God never ceases calling to us, even in our sin and suffering, God is there. Mormonism teaches that in sin and suffering, God leaves the building, abandoning the person(s) because of their sin. How they reconcile this to the Cross, and scripture (Christ died for us while we were still sinners) I have never figured out.

Mormonism teaches that all suffering in this life is a test, where one passes or fails according to how faithful one remains to God. Those who pass become gods in the next life. To a Mormon view, your foster child was being tested, and failed. These tests are designed by their God.

There is often a double bind that can be seen in the Mormon view and experience of things.

 

[Stephen168]

President McKay relates an occurrence which took place some years after the heroic exodus: “A teacher, conducting a class, said it was unwise ever to attempt, even to permit them [the Martin handcart company] to come across the plains under such conditions.
“[According to a class member,] some sharp criticism of the Church and its leaders was being indulged in for permitting any company of converts to venture across the plains with no more supplies or protection than a handcart caravan afforded.
“An old man in the corner

Has anyone ever read “Catholic Roots, Mormon Harvest” by Eric Shuster? I’m reading it, and I’ll definitely be doing a review of it. I’m only at the beginning, and already things don’t really make sense, and don’t seem to be providing a compelling reason for a Catholic to become LDS.

For example, in the beginning, they (Shuster and his wife) share their conversion story. One odd part was when their son got seriously sick and went to the hospital.

Is it a pattern in Mormonism to tell feel good tall tales?