The Amish?

[Sepharad]

Amish live near me, I have worked with them in deals and such. They are very strict, some are too radical, like dis-owning someone for having a different barn (this is true, but very hard to explain) and such things.

They are nice people, just different. I like them, they farm like I do.

They disown people for breaking their Ordnung (which is like their Canon law.)

Doesn’t the Catholic church also excommunicate their members when they violate certain rules as well?

 

[Katie1723]

If I could choose a way of life, it would be Amish.

Kathy

 

[DebChris]

Church discipline, for Mennonites and other Anabaptists, is intended to free the erring brother or sister from sin and return him or her to right relationship with God. Persistence in sinful behavior without repentance to the congregation’s admonition leads to suspension. The “ban” recognizes that person’s having separated themselves from the Body of Christ. (See 1 Corinthians, ch. 5).

 

[Sepharad]

If I could choose a way of life, it would be Amish.

Kathy

If I were not a Jew, and wanted to be a Christian, I’d be Amish. The only problem I have is with some of their food!—not very healthy)

 

[TriuneUnity]

The Pacifist view comes from allegiance to God over allegiance to country. Peace is the will of God. Therefore, they refuse military service seeing the church as “God’s holy nation.”

We are citizens of both kingdoms. We still have a responsibility to the City of Man as well as the City of God. Peace is the will of God… He uses the governments of man to punish those who violate His Law.

Those who benefit from the protections our government affords them should have the responsbility of willingness to give the same benefit to their neighbor via military service.

 

[mercygate]

They disown people for breaking their Ordnung (which is like their Canon law.)

Doesn’t the Catholic church also excommunicate their members when they violate certain rules as well?

Excommunication does NOT mean that people have to leave the house, that we cannot eat at table with them. It is a disciplinary exaction related to ecclesial issues. Shunning is FAR more extreme. You can’t even write the person a letter.

 

[dandn5000]

Excommunication does NOT mean that people have to leave the house, that we cannot eat at table with them. It is a disciplinary exaction related to ecclesial issues. Shunning is FAR more extreme. You can’t even write the person a letter.

And I don’t remember - is shunning permanent? With excommunication in the Catholic Church, if you repent of your sins you can be let back in, no problem. I don’t remember if you can do that with the Amish and regain your family and such.

 

[1234]

Here in Ohio we have the largest Amish community in the country. If you ever get a chance you MUST try their food. It’s absolutely amazing. Their pies are heavenly.

Having said that…I have nothing good to say about their theology. Even their pacifistic ways are misguided. The forgiveness they showed after the shooting was awesome, brought tears to my eyes…but unfortunately, they don’t live that Christian attitude out in the world. They stay locked in their communities. It’s inherently the same problem Luther saw with monasticism. It’s easier to stay shut inside one’s own community, alone with nothing but your own thoughts. Then it becomes easy to criticize the outside world and the “evils” of the modern age. “Sanctification” is easy under such conditions. It’s contact with the outside world, the service to neighbor and enemy where true Christian living is, not behind the walls of the monastery or behind the walls of the quaint country farmhouse.

Vis a vie their pacificism…It’s incredibly obnoxious to receive the benefits this country offers and yet refuse to bleed for it.

The Amish don’t accept social security or medicare or any state assistance. They insist on paying all their own medical bills themselves. They are very self-reliant.

They suffered hideously under the Catholics, which were the church in power when they were forming. They were routinely burned alive, mothers in front of their children. An artist of the time recorded their sufferings in one of the most horrible collections of woodcuts that I have ever seen–(I have a friend who is an Amish scholar, who had a copy of these).

The Amish deep these memories alive, by singing songs about their martyrs. They staill have martyrs in the US in modern times. Some Amish men who refused to enlist for WWI died in prison of exposure and pneumonia. The little girls who were targeted and murdered recently.

They are good people.

Get off your high horse.

 

[TriuneUnity]

The Amish don’t accept social security or medicare or any state assistance. They insist on paying all their own medical bills themselves. They are very self-reliant.

They are still here, and thus enjoy the other benefits of being here.

They suffered hideously under the Catholics, which were the church in power when they were forming. They were routinely burned alive, mothers in front of their children. An artist of the time recorded their sufferings in one of the most horrible collections of woodcuts that I have ever seen–(I have a friend who is an Amish scholar, who had a copy of these).

Name a group that hasn’t? The Catholics under the English, the Irish, the Africans, the Jews, etc.

The Amish deep these memories alive, by singing songs about their martyrs. They staill have martyrs in the US in modern times. Some Amish men who refused to enlist for WWI died in prison of exposure and pneumonia. The little girls who were targeted and murdered recently.

They are good people.

Get off your high horse.

No high horse here. If you live here, you should be willing to serve and die for the right to do so. Especially for those of us who have.

 

[mercygate]

And I don’t remember - is shunning permanent? With excommunication in the Catholic Church, if you repent of your sins you can be let back in, no problem. I don’t remember if you can do that with the Amish and regain your family and such.

Yes. An Amish person who is shunned may be restored to fellowship.

 

[dandn5000]

Yes. An Amish person who is shunned may be restored to fellowship.

I thought so - I remember hearing as much from an episode of Cold Case dealing with an Amish girl killed during Rumspringa. I just figured I’d check anyway, though, because we all know about how trustworthy those shows can be.

 

[SDA2RC]

We are citizens of both kingdoms. We still have a responsibility to the City of Man as well as the City of God. Peace is the will of God… He uses the governments of man to punish those who violate His Law.

Those who benefit from the protections our government affords them should have the responsbility of willingness to give the same benefit to their neighbor via military service.

I agree to a point with what you have said. I also believe that the reason the men and women in our military die is to preserve the freedom to obey your religious convictions, even if those include pacifism. Seventh-Day Adventists traditionally (although not as much any more) were non-combatants. However, they still believed in helping where ever it didnt conflict with their religions beliefs… so many served as nurses, medics, doctors, chaplains etc. In fact, Desmond Doss, a non-combatant SDA was given the Medal of Honor for his service to his country, although he never picked up a gun. A little about him can be found here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_Doss

What I mean is that it should be possible for a person to shun violence and still support their country.

 

[TriuneUnity]

I agree to a point with what you have said. I also believe that the reason the men and women in our military die is to preserve the freedom to obey your religious convictions, even if those include pacifism. Seventh-Day Adventists traditionally (although not as much any more) were non-combatants. However, they still believed in helping where ever it didnt conflict with their religions beliefs… so many served as nurses, medics, doctors, chaplains etc. In fact, Desmond Doss, a non-combatant SDA was given the Medal of Honor for his service to his country, although he never picked up a gun. A little about him can be found here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_Doss

What I mean is that it should be possible for a person to shun violence and still support their country.

I agree. In principle one doesn’t need to serve in a combat role within the military. Separatists, however, will not even do that. Nor contribute much else to the society in which they live.

The military men and women who die to protect the rights of pacifists deserve the credit for dying for others’ rights, not the pacifists!

 

[DebChris]

And I don’t remember - is shunning permanent? With excommunication in the Catholic Church, if you repent of your sins you can be let back in, no problem. I don’t remember if you can do that with the Amish and regain your family and such.

There is always a way back as with the man in 1 Corinthians 5.

 

[1ke]

As cruel as their shunning is, its the same basic idea as Catholic and Eastern Orthodox excommunication

This is a mischaracterization of excommunication.

 

[1ke]

They suffered hideously under the Catholics, which were the church in power when they were forming.

This was a product of the times. All groups suffered in one place or another.

They were routinely burned alive, mothers in front of their children.

Routinely? Really? Care to back that up with some data?

An artist of the time recorded their sufferings in one of the most horrible collections of woodcuts that I have ever seen–(I have a friend who is an Amish scholar, who had a copy of these).

That couldn’t *possibly *have been propaganda.

The little girls who were targeted and murdered recently.

They were not targeted *because *they were Amish.

 

[ibkc]

I can’t find any info on instances of Catholics persecuting Amish specifically, but the Amish’s parent movement, the Anabaptists, were persecuted by both the Catholic Church and their fellow Protestants. The persecution didn’t occur in a vacuum, either - the original Anabaptists were a social as well as a political movement, extremely radical and prone to violence themselves.

The Reformation was just an ugly time no matter how you look at it. Any one group chosen to be seen as heroic or as victims quite surely has a villainous side as well.

 

[DebChris]

I can’t find any info on instances of Catholics persecuting Amish specifically, but the Amish’s parent movement, the Anabaptists, were persecuted by both the Catholic Church and their fellow Protestants. The persecution didn’t occur in a vacuum, either - the original Anabaptists were a social as well as a political movement, extremely radical and prone to violence themselves.

The Reformation was just an ugly time no matter how you look at it. Any one group chosen to be seen as heroic or as victims quite surely has a villainous side as well.

4,000 Anabaptists were martyred in the 16th century. When questioned about their faith, Anabaptists recited the Apostle’s Creed which they also referred to as the 12 Articles of Faith. Some people were accused of being Anabaptist simply because they stopped cursing and getting drunk.
The important point made in this post is the reality that the Reformation was a cruel time in which Christians persecuted Christians. This is not how we are called to treat one another.
CCC818…All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.
CCC819 Furthermore many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements…

 

[1234]

This was a product of the times. All groups suffered in one place or another.

Routinely? Really? Care to back that up with some data?

That couldn’t *possibly *have been propaganda.

They were not targeted *because *they were Amish.

I love the way Catholics stand on their heads to deny their own history. I would be ashamed to belong to a church that has inflicted such suffering on other people as the Catholic church has.

The sufferings of the Anabaptists and their hideous tortures are common knowledge, at least to people who have an education.
The little girls were targeted because of their vulnerability and to a certain extent because of their ‘purity’. It seems pretty clear that the killer was intending to rape them. It was their isolation, as Amish, that made them targets.

If they were Catholics, believe me, you’d be calling them ‘martyrs’ and ‘saints’ and praying to them.

Look it up for yourself.

 

[ibkc]

The sufferings of the Anabaptists and their hideous tortures are common knowledge, at least to people who have an education.

Er, a simple reading of history shows that the original Anabaptists were radicals who had no qualms about using violence to achieve their ends.