The Anti-Catholic ABCs - "Anything But Catholic"

[Atemi]

It would be a vast improvement if all Protestants became Orthodox tomorrow, I’d warrant.

Oy.

So you would prefer non-Catholics convert from a church they recognize can err and thus still become Catholic to a church that they have to believe cannot err and thus not become Catholic?

That is senseless.

And BTW, it must be noted that true followers of Christ are to be evaluated by waaaaaay more than the mere laundry list of doctrines they nod to.

This is utterly basic.

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[Stephen_C]

Oy.

So you would prefer non-Catholics convert from a church they recognize can err and thus still become Catholic to a church that they have to believe cannot err and thus not become Catholic?

That is senseless.

And BTW, it must be noted that true followers of Christ are to be evaluated by waaaaaay more than the mere laundry list of doctrines they nod to.

This is utterly basic.

…

Oh Wow! So now us Catholic’s, and I guess Orthodox too, Worship doctrine and not Jesus. Gee I did not know that. So now I can add that to my title…I am a Mary, Pope, statue, and DOCTRINE Worshiper. Oh yes, I must not forget I am a vain repetitive sayer or prayers too. Thanks Atemi, with out folks like you I would not have known that.
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[Jestocost]

So you would prefer non-Catholics convert from a church they recognize can err and thus still become Catholic to a church that they have to believe cannot err and thus not become Catholic?

They would have a greater portion of the truth, and all seven sacrements. No more Sola’s, private interpretation, OSAS, or dispensationalism. Weighing against that, they wouldn’t follow the pope and wouldn’t believe some of the more recently defined doctrines. Sounds like a big gain to me.

 

[Teflon93]

Oy.

So you would prefer non-Catholics convert from a church they recognize can err and thus still become Catholic to a church that they have to believe cannot err and thus not become Catholic?

That is senseless.

And BTW, it must be noted that true followers of Christ are to be evaluated by waaaaaay more than the mere laundry list of doctrines they nod to.

This is utterly basic.

…

What is utterly basic is that the primitive Church the fundamentalists claim to seek subsists more in Orthodox and Catholic Churches than in the Protestant.

This is utterly basic.

But keep trying to explain away the intervening 1,500 years. The contortions entertain.

A living patriarch and a living Pope is to be preferred to the yoke of long-dead heretics.

 

[po18guy]

They would have a greater portion of the truth, and all seven sacrements. No more Sola’s, private interpretation, OSAS, or dispensationalism. Weighing against that, they wouldn’t follow the pope and wouldn’t believe some of the more recently defined doctrines. Sounds like a big gain to me.

Amen! It would mean much less error, and that is good. Christianity would then be much closer together and we could focus on Christ, instead of the men and women whose egos lead many away from His fullness.

Christ’s peace.

 

[Atemi]

A living patriarch and a living Pope is to be preferred to the yoke of long-dead heretics.

In case you forgot, your church has lovingly branded that “living patriarch” a heretic as well…all the playing footsies aside…

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[Teflon93]

In case you forgot, your church has lovingly branded that “living patriarch” a heretic as well…all the playing footsies aside…

…

In case you forgot, Atemi, the thread topic is “Anything But Catholic”.

Perhaps you could give an exposition on the topic, rather than simply continue to amply demonstrate the behavioral tics of the ABCs, such as less-than-coherent defense of the Orthodox whenever you feel it suits your own ABC position.

Since the Orthodox are a) not being attacked and b) more than capable of defending themselves, we have Exhibit A in the ABC playbook—“the enemy of my enemy is my friend”.

You may want to consider the various Orthodox criticisms of fundamentalism before proceeding in that vein.

Until then, why not expound upon the phenomenon known as “Anything But Catholic?” You have some insight into it to share, surely.

 

[heisenburg]

To take a step back for a second…

Let’s say for example that we are not looking at how the Catholic Church does or does not View the EO Church(es).

Just for argument.

What doctrines do many protestants have issues with, Atemi, you have mentioned that some of the things you find issues with (and please correct me if I misrepresent you) But I have heard things like your opposition to Purgatory, Pray with the Saints, How the CC views Baptism, the Eucharist, Papal Infallibility, That the Church does NOT teach Faith alone or Scripture alone, and statues.

I may have missed some, and there may be some mentioned that you don’t have a problem with. But lets start with this list as a frame work.

It does seem that Almost all protestants in general if you said Catholic or EO, you will get an almost in unison: EO.

Further more, almost every protestant that has issues with Catholicism, seem to have very little problems with the EO.

Not a trap, but lets continue.

Why is it OK to become EO, but NOT Catholic?

Very simple question…

EO believe in Everything mentioned here, except the infallibility of the Pope, though some branches agree on the Primacy of the Chair of Peter.

So, why is it OK to be EO and NOT Catholic? Theologies are EXTREMELY close. Also keep in mind that the CC views the EO in Schism and not Heresy. There is a difference.

Why can an EO pray with the saints, and not Catholics?
Why can an EO be Baptized in the Catholic Understanding, but not Catholics?
Why can an EO believe in the Eucharist, but Not Catholics?
Why can an EO believe in purgatory, and Not Catholics…
Why is the EO bible OK, but not the Catholic bible. (keep in mind, some have even MORE books)

I could go on if you want…

But the point is this…

If any protestant says you can be EO, but not Catholic is doing one of the following three…

1. They do not know what the EO church actually teaches
2. The ONLY problem they have with the Catholic Church is the Infallibility of the Pope, (but not the idea that there may be a First among equals). All other doctrines like Purgatory, Praying with the saints, etc, are OK
3. Are simply bound by Hate… Anything… But Catholic… and anyone that holds to the its OK to be EO, understands what they teach, but does NOT agree with praying with the saints, purgatory etc, And STILL says “but being Catholic is wrong”, there is no other option left but Hate and Pride for there is no other reason that one would say its ok to EO, understand what she teaches and still saying being Catholic is wrong…

I reiterate… Anyone that says it is OK to be EO, but NOT Catholic for any other reason than (1) or (2) can only be saying it out of Hate and nothing else

In Christ

 

[Atemi]

Until then, why not expound upon the phenomenon known as “Anything But Catholic?” You have some insight into it to share, surely.

I did.

There is no "phenomenon."

It is a fantasy as that kind of thinking is rampant among Roman Catholics as well. Heck, some ex-RCs go years before ever telling devout family members that they left your church…if they tell them at all. This is conveniently forgotten in this thread so the “phenomenon” angle can be pushed.

**“Anything but Baptist!”

“Anything but Fundamentalist!”

“Anything but Evangelical!”**

This can be even seen in your own posts all over this thread…as one day your own child may shock you by revealing that they are leaving Catholicism. What will immediately ring through your own mind will probably be some of the exclamations above.

No phenomenon. Nothing particular to Catholicism. Everything particular to humanity, however, but that doesn’t make it special for the victim classes anymore.

…

 

[homewardbound]

I did.

There is no "phenomenon."

It is a fantasy as that kind of thinking is rampant among Roman Catholics as well. Heck, some ex-RCs go years before ever telling devout family members that they left your church…if they tell them at all. This is conveniently forgotten in this thread so the “phenomenon” angle can be pushed.

**“Anything but Baptist!”

“Anything but Fundamentalist!”

“Anything but Evangelical!”**

This can be even seen in your own posts all over this thread…as one day your own child may shock you by revealing that they are leaving Catholicism. What will immediately ring through your own mind will probably be some of the exclamations above.

No phenomenon. Nothing particular to Catholicism. Everything particular to humanity, however, but that doesn’t make it special for the victim classes anymore.

…

I’m leaving the Baptist denom and my mom told me she’d rather I be any denomination but Catholic. Mainly because, like most Protestants, she believes all the myths about what Catholicism teaches and doesn’t bother to actually find out the truth.

All Protestants I know are Anything But Catholic. They’re fine with each other and the differences. Fine with worshiping at different churches. But not Catholics. For some reason they’re seen as different.

Also, if I ever have a child who leaves the Church for some other faith I will not be “Oh Anything But …” I will grieve for them for leaving God’s Truth and be sad no matter where they go. No one denomination is worse or better than any other. I’m sure I’d be more afraid for my children if they left for say Islam or Buddhist…but again no one religion outside of Christianity is worse or better than any other IMO.

So in my case anyway, you’re wrong.

In my own experiences, Protestants are more hateful towards Catholics than anyone else. Protestants, in my experience, are more hateful towards Catholics than non-Christians. I have non-Christian friends I can actually discuss my faith with and respect each other’s different beliefs. I have yet to come across a Protestant I can discuss anything with without being attacked with hatred and ignorance.

The whole issue of ABC is something I am personally struggling with a lot right now. Its my cross to bear to follow God where He has led me to be.

 

[Atemi]

I’m leaving the Baptist denom and my mom told me she’d rather I be any denomination but Catholic.

Kinda like the Catholics in this thread that would like Christians to be Orthodox but anything but Evangelical.

Sigh…and so the dance continues.

Take your situation with your mom and turn it around and you will know what many feel like in their Catholic homes. Your experience is neither special or limited to Roman Catholics. I know that is not good for PR though.

…

 

[Teflon93]

I did.

There is no "phenomenon."

It is a fantasy as that kind of thinking is rampant among Roman Catholics as well. Heck, some ex-RCs go years before ever telling devout family members that they left your church…if they tell them at all. This is conveniently forgotten in this thread so the “phenomenon” angle can be pushed.

**“Anything but Baptist!”

“Anything but Fundamentalist!”

“Anything but Evangelical!”**

This can be even seen in your own posts all over this thread…as one day your own child may shock you by revealing that they are leaving Catholicism. What will immediately ring through your own mind will probably be some of the exclamations above.

No phenomenon. Nothing particular to Catholicism. Everything particular to humanity, however, but that doesn’t make it special for the victim classes anymore.

…

Atemi, you are the living embodiment of the phenomenon.

And thanks for your concern. Should my son elect to leave our faith, “Anything but Fundamentalist” or “Anything but Baptist” or “Anything but Seventh Day Adventist” won’t even factor into it. My “Anything But” happens to be atheism.

Too bad you can’t say the same.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Kinda like the Catholics in this thread that would like Christians to be Orthodox but anything but Evangelical.

Sigh…and so the dance continues.

Take your situation with your mom and turn it around and you will know what many feel like in their Catholic homes. Your experience is neither special or limited to Roman Catholics. I know that is not good for PR though.

…

It’s because the Eastern Orthodox have Apostolic Succession and 7 Sacraments. Most Protestant Churches lack it

 

[anthony022071]

When my wife and I first considered crossing the Tiber, the response we had from her Methodist mother when we began getting a bit evasive on the subject of where we were going to church was priceless: “Anything but Catholic.”

I think we see quite a few posts on the boards which bear this knee-jerk reaction out.

In the past few weeks, we’ve seen:

1. Protestants who have a newfound respect for the Orthodox Church, even insinuating that the Orthodox were right all along with the Great Schism, even though the Nicene Creed most Protestants possess contains the Filioque and not the Orthodox form which contributed to the Schism.

There are several reasons why Protestants are attracted by the Orthodox Church. The Orthodox Church has deep traditions,true sacraments,but without the monarchial authority of the papacy, and the belief in papal infallibility. With the Orthodox it is the councils that are the final authority in matters of doctrine,and that is something that can appeal to people who value conciliar government institutions and democracy. The Orthodox Church is made up of regional autocephalous churches,which again appeals to people who are accustomed to multiple denominations and “free churches”. The Orthodox,like the Protestants,are not strict about birth control. The Orthodox,like the Protestants,do not stress the importance of works in salvation and do not believe in purgatory or the satisfaction of sins. The Orthodox hold in the highest regard the “experiential” part of religion in hesychasm;and this is what many people today are looking for – an inward “God experiece”,mysticism,spiritualism – apart from God’s demand for self-giving,works of charity,repentance,and forgiveness.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

It’s an excellent point. The fundamentalists who evince respect for Orthodox Christianity seem to do so only insofar as she opposes Catholicism.

Moreover, if they really did agree with the Orthodox view, one would expect them at minimum to reject the Nicene Creed with the filioque clause which has been so controversial between Orthodox and Catholic. It is a curious position that the Catholic Church had this right but that the Orthodox Church was right on everything else.

It would be a vast improvement if all Protestants became Orthodox tomorrow, I’d warrant.

I should say so. But then, I’m a former Protestant (didn’t have much good to say about the Latin church until I became Orthodox).

Yes, I always find it strange to see Protestants, so opposed to tradition, defend the filioque. They confess it, but can’t say why.

I have to say, talking with Romanian Protestants, that their counterfoil is the Latin church, not the Romanian Orthodox Church, which is odd (90% of Romania is Orthodox). They have nary an idea about the Orthodox, except it’s like the Latins. Odd.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Oy.

So you would prefer non-Catholics convert from a church they recognize can err and thus still become Catholic to a church that they have to believe cannot err and thus not become Catholic?

That is senseless.

And BTW, it must be noted that true followers of Christ are to be evaluated by waaaaaay more than the mere laundry list of doctrines they nod to.

This is utterly basic.

…

I became Catholic when I embraced Orthodoxy.

 

[Atemi]

Atemi, you are the living embodiment of the phenomenon.

Ahhh. Personal attacks. What else is new?

Not only is there no magical “phenomenon,” but I do not embody any such fantasy either.

Please stay on task instead of the inevitable personal attack. You want your position to have some gravity, don’t you?

Should my son elect to leave our faith, “Anything but Fundamentalist” or “Anything but Baptist” or “Anything but Seventh Day Adventist” won’t even factor into it. My “Anything But” happens to be atheism.

Good to hear, though it is hard to tell by how you speak of such people in this thread alone.

Too bad you can’t say the same.

Again, you are making invented accusations.

I grew up Catholic and most of my closest family members and loved ones are devout Catholics.

I was Catholic for 30 years.

I am not one to ever say “anything but Catholic”…nor will you find me saying that anywhere in any of my posts on any board anywhere on the Net.

I explained why earlier: I am not one to judge a Christian by examining the laundry list of doctrines they merely nod to on Sundays.

But what is the truth when there are arguments to make and platitudes about phantom victimhoods that must be pedalled?

Like I said, such a thought does not make for good RC cheerleading and back-patting. I apologize that this truth adds no fuel to your anti-Protestantism.

…

 

[Atemi]

I became Catholic when I embraced Orthodoxy.

Not here you didn’t. The only “Catholic,” according to the folks here, is one who believes exactly as they do.

Heck, most of the people in their own church are not even “Catholics.”

…

 

[Teflon93]

Ahhh. Personal attacks. What else is new?

You still need to look up the definition of “personal attack.” You may want to note that crititicizing one’s behavior is not a personal attack. For someone who decries the culture of victimization, you sure seem to play the victim often enough.

Evidence, please?

Easy enough to refute—say something nice about the Pope.

Please stay on task instead of the inevitable personal attack. You want your position to have some gravity, don’t you?

You seem to equate repetition with truth. My position has whatever gravity it has because I engage arguments, produce counterarguments, and provide evidence. I have not once see you do any such thing. One can only presume it is because you have no evidence for what you believe.

Good to hear, though it is hard to tell by how you speak of such people in this thread alone.

Kindly leverage the hyperlink button to highlight those posts which prove your point, or quote them. Otherwise, nothing but air.

Again, you are making invented accusations.

All accusations are invented. They must be formulated before presentation. It is this kind of sloppiness which undermines whatever argument you have buried in your purple prose.

I grew up Catholic and most of my closest family members and loved ones are devout Catholics.

I grew up Protestant and most of my closest family members and loved ones are devout Protestants.

I was Catholic for 30 years.

You are Catholic still. You are simply disobedient.

I am not one to ever

say “anything but Catholic”…nor will you find me saying that anywhere in any of my posts on any board anywhere on the Net.

Atemi, every post is an anti-Catholic screed. I’ll dig up a “Best of Atemi” with some of your greatest hits if you’d like.

I explained why earlier: I am not one to judge a Christian by examining the laundry list of doctrines they merely nod to on Sundays.

Wow, this passage sure is nonjudgmental.

But what is the truth when there are arguments to make and platitudes about phantom victimhoods that must be pedalled?

Another nonjudgmental gem. The nice thing about your arguments is their self-refuting nature.

Like I said, such a thought does not make for good RC cheerleading and back-patting. I apologize that this truth adds no fuel to your anti-Protestantism.

…

I’m a Coke man myself, but cheer for RC Cola as you will. And when you define Protestantism for me, which as I recall you’ve previously claimed does not exist, I’ll be glad to tell you if I’m pro- or anti-.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Teflon93]

I should say so. But then, I’m a former Protestant (didn’t have much good to say about the Latin church until I became Orthodox).

Yes, I always find it strange to see Protestants, so opposed to tradition, defend the filioque. They confess it, but can’t say why.

I have to say, talking with Romanian Protestants, that their counterfoil is the Latin church, not the Romanian Orthodox Church, which is odd (90% of Romania is Orthodox). They have nary an idea about the Orthodox, except it’s like the Latins. Odd.

I was going to posit it might be a function of geography, but your Romanian example blew that right out of the water.

Perhaps its simply the historical baggage of the Reformation carried over?

I will certainly root for the Romanian Orthodox Church to make converts of the Romanian Protestants in the meantime.