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VWcrazy
Guest
Wow! This really does sound like describes the LDS!
The Apostle John, The Three Nephites and the "Great Apostasy"
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chasjohn
Guest
I’m sorry the link didn’t work for you. I tried it just now and it worked for me. The reference is from the book “Duties and Blessings of the Priesthood”, Part A, History and Organization of the Priesthood, Chapter 2: The Priesthood from Adam to the Restoration, page 9, published by the LDS Church
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Brad_Haas
Guest
Thanks, I’ll have a look.
I’ve had trouble linking articles from there before. I think it uses cookies to keep track of the article you were viewing, but the frames tend to goof up an attempt at a direct link.
I’ve had trouble linking articles from there before. I think it uses cookies to keep track of the article you were viewing, but the frames tend to goof up an attempt at a direct link.
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zerinus
Guest
The link doesn’t work for me neither. It brings up the frames, but no articles found in it.
zerinus
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chasjohn
Guest
Trying moving [dragging] the frames to reveal the article underneath.
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zerinus
Guest
I have tried that already. This is the message that appears in the lower frame:
Search Results
There is currently no active search. After you perform a search, the resulting list of documents will be displayed here.
And this is the message in the top frame:
Church Publications
Searchable Database
Code:
Welcome to the Church publications available in HTML format. Publications currently available include curriculum materials and Church magazines in English from January 1971 through February 2007. You can access content by using:
The Search button above this browser window. You can search for a specific subject, concept, or phrase. You can also limit your search to a specific portion of the material (such as the New Era).
The table of contents in the navigation frame on the left side of this browser window. You can browse for content using this comprehensive, expandable index.
The Advanced Search page (click on the tab near the top-center of this browser window). You can choose from several powerful and content-specific searching options.zerinus
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chasjohn
Guest
Try this link:
Homepage - The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Discover a service-oriented, globally-connected Christian church that is led by a prophet of God and seeks to follow Jesus Christ and His restored gospel.
www.churchofjesuschrist.org
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zerinus
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chasjohn
Guest
I have the article in PDF format that I could
e-mail to you, if you have an e-mail address.
e-mail to you, if you have an e-mail address.
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zerinus
Guest
That is alright, I have found it. This is the link to the PDF:
lds.org/gospellibrary/materials/dutiesA/Start_Here.pdf
zerinus
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Catholic_Dude
Guest
Thanks for this link, yes it does work. I dont have much time to read it now but I went to page 10 as instructed and it mentioned the 6 other apostasies…I didnt realize all of them took place between Adam and the Apostles with the Apostle one being titled “The Great Apostasy”
That was pretty much just a glance so far, I hope to read more tomorrow.
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Catholic_Dude
Guest
I found time to look through that link but I was kind of disappointed in the level of detail that was given, there was about 2 pages worth on the Great Apostasy and I never saw John mentioned as still being alive.
I have read through the responses given so far but I dont think the questions of the OP have been answered sufficiently.
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Chris-WA
Guest
Great question. Why indeed was the authority to run the church given not to another living Apostle after Peter died? Why didn’t one of them step in and take over? The answer is simple. Not only was Peter the chief Apostle, but he was also the bishop of Rome. And when he died, the authority as shepherd of the church was given to Peter’s successor. The bishop of Rome sits in the chair of Peter and holds all the keys. He is the “prime minister” of the kingdom, with all authority to act on behalf of the King, Jesus Christ. It is through the office of bishop, not Apostle, that authority is transferred from one generation to the next. And because Peter was bishop of Rome, then the bishop of Rome has supremacy over all others as Peter’s successor. This is clearly seen and taught in the earliest known church historical documents dating back to the first century.
If you haven’t read any of the Church Fathers, than you don’t know what you’re missing. Many Protestant ministers have given up their livelihoods as pastors and converted to the Catholic faith as a result of discovering the wealth of history available in these documents. Your typical Mormon has never heard of nor read the early Church Fathers, and therefore has a very skewed idea of what the early Christian Church was really like. They only know what they’ve been taught all their lives in the LDS church–that the early church was so corrupt that all authority was lost. This is only a convenient way of dismissing the authority of the Catholic Church in order to justify some other modern authority. I challenge you to read the early documents of the church and discover the truth of the matter.
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zerinus
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Others have already given good answers to your questions. This is just a bit of additional information to the answers that have been given.
The ministry of John was withdrawn from the people because of the apostasy. When a people decide to apostatize, God has given them the freedom and the right to choose to do so. He is not going to intervene to prevent them from doing so because that would override the freewill of man, which God has freely granted to all mankind. But they will suffer the consequences of their actions by being cut off from the presence and Spirit of the Lord—hence the withdrawal of the ministry of John from then as a consequence of their apostasy. God will not intervene to override the freewill of man to prevent them from apostatizing for the same reason that He would not intervene to prevent a criminal from committing a serious crime. If I turned criminal one day and decided to pick up a gun and go to the local school and shoot twenty pupils dead, more than likely God is not going to intervene to prevent me from doing it because that is how the world is made. But I will be held accountable for my actions and will suffer the consequences thereof when the day of reckoning comes. The same principle applies to the Apostasy.
No, it did neither. God withdrew his ministry from among them because they had apostatized from the gospel that he had delivered to them.
See above.
He could not have preserved them in the church that had already apostatized. But we know that they have in fact been preserved and kept safe. They have been preserved by the power of God to come to light in a time and place of His own choosing when He considers the inhabitants of the world (and of the Church) to be worthy and prepared form them.
Peter and James, as has been mentioned already, had been resurrected. John was a translated being; and translated beings have the same enhanced powers as angels do to be able to transport themselves from one place to another at will.
This question has already been answered. God had given them a different mission to fulfil.
Same answer as above.
zerinus
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Chris-WA
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The very idea that the Apostle John is somewhere lurking about the earth incognito is the most rediculous thing I have ever heard. If John were alive and among us, he would be preaching the gospel, pure and simple. If the church had apostacized during John’s time, he would have done everything in his power to preach the truth, including marching right back to Rome and confronting the leaders of the church there. This idea that John has been “withdrawn” from his ministry is completely without scriptural or historical foundation. It is a complete fabrication and a desperately lame one at that.
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Nan_S
Guest
According to the Early Church Fathers, John the Apostle died a natural death in Ephesus around the year 100 AD, during the reign of the Roman Emperor Trajan.
Actually, the legend I heard many years ago was that the so-called immortal man walking the earth was Lazarus, not John, because Jesus resurrected Lazarus.
I’ll second this. According to Tertullian’s testimony (De praescript., xxxvi), John had been thrown into a cauldron of boiling oil before the Porta Latina at Rome without suffering injury. So it’s very hard to imagine that John would NOT continue to publicly preach the gospel if he were still among us.
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zerinus
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That is an interesting comment Nan. Any ideas why John should be spared the attempt to kill him, when all the other Apostles succumbed to the ordeal, and died at the hands of their Gentile persecutors by cruel and unusual means? Peter is said to have been crucified upside down (at his own request) and thus met his fate. Paul is said to have been beheaded (probably because he had been a Roman citizen, crucifixion would have been considered too undignified for his status as a Roman). Other Apostles according to tradition are believed to have died by various other cruel methods. John is the only one that is known in Christian tradition to have survived a cruel attempt to put an end to his life. In fact, the tradition states that he emerged from the cauldron of boiling oil looking better and younger than when he went in! Don’t you think that that might have something to do with the promise the Lord had made to him that he should not see death? Did you know that there is a close parallel between the story of John in Christian tradition, and the story of the three Nephite disciples in Book of Mormon? Let me quote you some passages which might interest you. First, the exact promise that the Lord made to them that they should not taste of death:
3 Nephi 28:
7 Therefore, more blessed are ye, for ye shall never taste of death; but ye shall live to behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of men, even until all things shall be fulfilled according to the will of the Father, when I shall come in my glory with the powers of heaven.
8 And ye shall never endure the pains of death; but when I shall come in my glory ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortality to immortality; and then shall ye be blessed in the kingdom of my Father.
9 And again, ye shall not have pain while ye shall dwell in the flesh, neither sorrow save it be for the sins of the world; and all this will I do because of the thing which ye have desired of me, for ye have desired that ye might bring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall stand.
This was the promise that was made to them; and interestingly, the same unsuccessful attempts were made by the unbelieving Nephites to kill them with cruel and unusual means as had been the case with John:
3 Nephi 28:
19 And they were cast into prison by them who did not belong to the church. And the prisons could not hold them, for they were rent in twain.
20 And they were cast down into the earth; but they did smite the earth with the word of God, insomuch that by his power they were delivered out of the depths of the earth; and therefore they could not dig pits sufficient to hold them.
21 And thrice they were cast into a furnace and received no harm.
22 And twice were they cast into a den of wild beasts; and behold they did play with the beasts as a child with a suckling lamb, and received no harm.
Did you know that ministry of the three Nephite disciples was eventually withdrawn form among the Nephites precisely because of their apostasy and wickedness:
Mormon 1:
13 But wickedness did prevail upon the face of the whole land, insomuch that the Lord did take away his beloved disciples, and the work of miracles and of healing did cease because of the iniquity of the people.
16 And I did endeavor to preach unto this people, but my mouth was shut, and I was forbidden that I should preach unto them; for behold they had wilfully rebelled against their God; and the beloved disciples were taken away out of the land, because of their iniquity.
zerinus
Continued . . . /
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zerinus
Guest
/. . . Continued
The ministry of John the Beloved was also withdrawn from the early Christian church for precisely the same reason, because they had apostatized form the truth, and the faith and miracles and the healings ceased because of the wickedness of the people. That is why John could not remain among them to revitalize the church by reconstituting the quorum of the Twelve Apostles and the full organization of the church which the Lord had originally established. Their apostasy had made it impossible for him to even remain among them, never mind to revitalize the church. Did you know that the Apostles knew that some of them should not die, and Paul actually mentions that in his writings? Here is the quote:
1 Corinthians 15:
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep {i.e. die}, but we shall all be changed,
Notice he describes it as a “mystery”. In other words, the knowledge was not readily divulged to everyone; and he uses very guarded language to refer to it.
D&C 7:
1 And the Lord said unto me: John, my beloved, what desirest thou? For if you shall ask what you will, it shall be granted unto you.
2 And I said unto him: Lord, give unto me power over death, that I may live and bring souls unto thee.
3 And the Lord said unto me: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt tarry until I come in my glory, and shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people.
4 And for this cause the Lord said unto Peter: If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?
And the same promise was made to the three Nephite disciples:
3 Nephi 28:
24 And now I, Mormon, make an end of speaking concerning these things for a time.
25 Behold, I was about to write the names of those who were never to taste of death, but the Lord forbade; therefore I write them not, for they are hid from the world.
26 But behold, I have seen them, and they have ministered unto me.
27 And behold they will be among the Gentiles, and the Gentiles shall know them not.
28 They will also be among the Jews, and the Jews shall know them not.
29 And it shall come to pass, when the Lord seeth fit in his wisdom that they shall minister unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them.
30 And they are as the angels of God, and if they shall pray unto the Father in the name of Jesus they can show themselves unto whatsoever man it seemeth them good.
31 Therefore, great and marvelous works shall be wrought by them, before the great and coming day when all people must surely stand before the judgment-seat of Christ;
32 Yea even among the Gentiles shall there be a great and marvelous work wrought by them, before that judgment day.
33 And if ye had all the scriptures which give an account of all the marvelous works of Christ, ye would, according to the words of Christ, know that these things must surely come.
So they will indeed preach publicly and prophesy, but in the time and place of the Lord’s own choosing, not according to our wishes.
zerinus
The ministry of John the Beloved was also withdrawn from the early Christian church for precisely the same reason, because they had apostatized form the truth, and the faith and miracles and the healings ceased because of the wickedness of the people. That is why John could not remain among them to revitalize the church by reconstituting the quorum of the Twelve Apostles and the full organization of the church which the Lord had originally established. Their apostasy had made it impossible for him to even remain among them, never mind to revitalize the church. Did you know that the Apostles knew that some of them should not die, and Paul actually mentions that in his writings? Here is the quote:
1 Corinthians 15:
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep {i.e. die}, but we shall all be changed,
Notice he describes it as a “mystery”. In other words, the knowledge was not readily divulged to everyone; and he uses very guarded language to refer to it.
First of all, who are you to say? God determines these things, we don’t. Secondly, the promise was indeed made to him that he would prophecy and preach, but in the time of the Lord’s own choosing:
D&C 7:
1 And the Lord said unto me: John, my beloved, what desirest thou? For if you shall ask what you will, it shall be granted unto you.
2 And I said unto him: Lord, give unto me power over death, that I may live and bring souls unto thee.
3 And the Lord said unto me: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt tarry until I come in my glory, and shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people.
4 And for this cause the Lord said unto Peter: If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?
And the same promise was made to the three Nephite disciples:
3 Nephi 28:
24 And now I, Mormon, make an end of speaking concerning these things for a time.
25 Behold, I was about to write the names of those who were never to taste of death, but the Lord forbade; therefore I write them not, for they are hid from the world.
26 But behold, I have seen them, and they have ministered unto me.
27 And behold they will be among the Gentiles, and the Gentiles shall know them not.
28 They will also be among the Jews, and the Jews shall know them not.
29 And it shall come to pass, when the Lord seeth fit in his wisdom that they shall minister unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them.
30 And they are as the angels of God, and if they shall pray unto the Father in the name of Jesus they can show themselves unto whatsoever man it seemeth them good.
31 Therefore, great and marvelous works shall be wrought by them, before the great and coming day when all people must surely stand before the judgment-seat of Christ;
32 Yea even among the Gentiles shall there be a great and marvelous work wrought by them, before that judgment day.
33 And if ye had all the scriptures which give an account of all the marvelous works of Christ, ye would, according to the words of Christ, know that these things must surely come.
So they will indeed preach publicly and prophesy, but in the time and place of the Lord’s own choosing, not according to our wishes.
zerinus
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Nan_S
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It’s a pretty big jump to go from “we shall not all sleep” to concluding that Paul was speaking to or of the Apostles, (he wasn’t) and that “we” means one - John.
Jesus Himself says that the ones who will be taken up without dying are the ordinary people living ordinary lives at the time of the Second Coming.
Mt 24:40-42 Then two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left. Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. (See also Luke 17:34-35)
Your statement would be accurate if Paul was writing an Old Testament book, using “mystery” according to its Old Testament definition. The Old Testament used the word mysterion as an equivalent for the Hebrew word sôd, “secret.”
Paul, however, is writing in the New Testament, after Christ has been revealed. In the New Testament the word “mystery” is applied to the revelation of the Gospel, to the Incarnation and life of the Saviour, and to His manifestation through the preaching of the Apostles.
In its strict New Testament sense a mystery is a revealed supernatural truth, one that of its very nature lies above the finite intelligence of man and man’s human reasoning capability. In conformity with the usage of the inspired writers of the New Testament, theologians give the name mystery to revealed truths that surpass the powers of natural reason.
D&C 7:1 And the Lord said unto me: John, my beloved, what desirest thou? For if you shall ask what you will, it shall be granted unto you.
2 And I said unto him: Lord, give unto me power over death, that I may live and bring souls unto thee.
3 And the Lord said unto me: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt tarry until I come in my glory, and shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people.
4 And for this cause the Lord said unto Peter: If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?
zerinus
According to the introduction to D&C section 7, this is a “Revelation given to Joseph Smith and Oliver Crowdery at Harmony, PA, April 1829…The revelation is a translated version of a record made on parchment by John and hidden up by himself.”
I don’t suppose anyone knows how Joseph Smith got this parchment, nor what happened to it, since the History of the Church, Vol 1, Verses 66-67 which covers April 1829, makes no mention of it.
This revelation to Joseph Smith is an interesting combination of the Gospel according to John and the Book of Revelation, with a few details added.
Note that Rev 10:11 says “prophecy about” and not “prophecy to”:
Rev 10:10-11 And I took the little scroll from the hand of the angel and ate it; it was sweet as honey in my mouth, but when I had eaten it my stomach was made bitter. And I was told, “You must again prophesy about many peoples and nations and tongues and kings.”
Also note that Jn 21:23 makes it clear that Jesus is saying to Peter, “It’s none of your business” and NOT “he will not die.”
Jn 21:21-23 When Peter saw him [the disciple whom Jesus loved], he said to Jesus, “Lord, what about this man?” Jesus said to him, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? Follow me!” The saying spread abroad among the brethren that this disciple was not to die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he was not to die, but, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?”
This is not an example of a bible verse which has been abridged by the Early Church Fathers. The Gospel provides more interpretive information than D&C 7, not less.
I also checked the Joseph Smith translation and found that Jn 21:21-23 has nothing added to it by Joseph Smith.
Nan
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Montalban
Guest
Catholics will answer this differently. It assumes that the Catholic stance about the Papacy is correct. Orthodox don’t believe Linus was given to head the entire church, so your understanding of church history is very influenced by Protestant objections.
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