D
De_Maria
Guest
Well, as InJesus said, we can debunk those articles if you want to open an new thread about each of those prophecies.
What signs? The alleged revelation to Mohammed has been wholly absent of signs.
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H
hamba2han
Guest
It is often the simple signs that we see everyday that are the most telling.What signs? The alleged revelation to Mohammed has been wholly absent of signs.
005:075
Christ the son of Mary was no more than an apostle; many were the apostles that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how God doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!
B
Booklover
Guest
Really! And you continue to believe the word of a man that approved of lying!It is often the simple signs that we see everyday that are the most telling.
005:075
Christ the son of Mary was no more than an apostle; many were the apostles that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how God doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!
Vickie
I
inJESUS
Guest
It is often the simple signs that we see everyday that are the most telling.
no one is questioning God’s signs. We were talking about Muhammad’s signs.
Christ the son of Mary was no more than an apostle; many were the apostles that passed away before him.
H
hamba2han
Guest
The point here really is not that Jesus and Mary (pbut) ate food but rather that they ate EVERYDAY of their lives.no one is questioning God’s signs. We were talking about Muhammad’s signs.
so he passed away as well since he was “no more” than an apostle. If he did not pass away, it means he is more than an apostle.
in other words, Jesus and Mary are cannot be divine since they ate food. Pretty deep theological reasoning.
If Jesus (pbuh) was divine, then why on earth was it necessary for him to eat food everyday of his life?
They are indeed disbelievers those who say, ‘God is the third of three’, gods, that is, He is one of them, the other two being Jesus and his mother, and they [who claim this] are a Christian sect; when there is no god but the One God. If they do not desist from what they say, when they declare a trinity, and profess His Oneness, those of them who disbelieve, that is, [those] who are fixed upon unbelief, shall suffer a painful chastisement, namely, the Fire. (Tafsir al-Jalalayn)
Christians often accuse Muslims of not even knowing what the Trinity is, pointing out that the Qur’an sets it up as Allah the Father, Jesus the Son, and Mary his mother. While veneration of Mary has been a figment of the Catholic Church since 431 when she was given the title “Mother of God” by the Council of Ephesus, a closer examination of the verse in the Qur’an (5:116) most often cited by Christians in support of their accusation, shows that the designation of Mary by the Qur’an as a “member” of the Trinity, is simply not true.It should have been wiser if Allah refuted the correct teaching, not one that we are not sure if it existed or not, and if it did, it was so few that it had no impact when the real impact is for correct teachig of Father, Word, Spirit. How did Allah miss this in his foreknowledge?
While the Qur’an does condemn both trinitarianism (the Qur’an 4:17) and the worship of Jesus and his mother Mary (the Qur’an 5:116), nowhere does it identify the actual three components of the Christian Trinity. The position of the Qur’an is that WHO or WHAT comprises this doctrine is not important; what is important is that the very notion of a Trinity is an affront against the concept of One God.
The following is an excerpt from a webpage:
a) The word “Trinity” appears in the Holy Qur’an in verses 4:171 and 5:73. In these two verses the name of Mary is not mentioned as “the third Person of the Holy Trinity”. Not withstanding that as an argument, here are the observed facts.
b) The carved or molten images and/or statues of Jesus Christ and his mother Mary, in various sizes and shapes, are to be found in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, all around the world.
c) Most of these Sacred Statues or Images are placed in the prominent places of the Prayer Halls of these Christian Churches for the purpose of venerating and worshipping of these entities.
d) One would also notice that the majority of the attending congregates would kneel, worship, venerate and pray before these Holy Images as their reverent rituals and inherited traditions. Many devoted believers would place lighted candles in front of these Sacred Statues or Images before worshipping or paying their homage to them.
e) These Catholic and Orthodox congregates who venerate Lord Jesus as their God and Virgin Mary as the “Mother of God”, do form the bulk of the Christians community. It has been so since the inception of the Roman Catholic Church. The Protestants, who separated from the Roman Catholics, nearly ten centuries after the advent of Islam, do not have the Statues of Mother Mary in their Churches.
f) In 1998, according to the Encyclopedia Britannia there were 1040 million Catholics and only 361 million Protestants.
g) These observations clearly indicate that Virgin Mary has been venerated with hyperdulia, along with her son Jesus, by the majority of the Christians, from the early years of the Catholicism.
h) As for the Holy Ghost, the third person of the Holy Trinity, no Christian Church has so far instituted its venerating representation, image or semblance for their Churchgoers.
The Truth
Code:
The obvious conclusion is that for all practical purpose and in reality, when the issue is of Worshipping, Venerating, Deifying and/or Idolizing, it is Mary - the "Mother of God" and not the Holy Ghost has that kind of rank and status. Briefly, the historical figures of Jesus and Mary are venerated as Deities. The Holy Ghost is not venerated as a Deity.And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.
I
inJESUS
Guest
The point here really is not that Jesus and Mary (pbut) ate food but rather that they ate EVERYDAY of their lives.
the point here is that they are not divine because they ate everyday of their life. Do you really believe this is a divine refutation?
further proof the Quran is from human origins displaying faulty human reasoning and not divine reasoning. The Holy Spirit is called God since the first century. Never was Mary called God. Allah must know this. The Holy Spirit is depicted as a dove or fire in churches. Allah must know this.If Jesus (pbuh) was divine, then why on earth was it necessary for him to eat food everyday
I
inJESUS
Guest
1-In Arabic Trinity means Al-Taluth al Aqdas and is interpretated as Al-Aqanim-Al-Thalatha . Not once did Allah use the correct title.
2-and **say not, Three **(thalathatun). Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son,
how on earth can you believe an all-knowing God does not know Christian theology?
God is One so say not 3 gods. . The Trinity=One God, not 3 gods. Pretty poor refutation if Allah understod that Trinity= One God. It works well if Allah understood the Trinity is 3 gods. If he understood this then he is not God.
Far from his glory to have a son?? of course because Allah/Muhammas understood PHYSICALLY.
Wonderful Originator of the heavens and the earth! How could He have a son when He has no consort
Do you really believe God got a very Jewish title so wrong?
3-They indeed have disbelieved who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary
wrong theology, again. The correction formulation is : Jesus is God because God is Father, Word, Spirit.
4-They are unbelievers who say, 'God is the Third of Three (thalithu thalathatin). No god is there but One God…The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; Messengers before him passed away; **his mother **was a just woman; they both ate food. Behold, how We make clear the signs to them; then behold, how they perverted are! S. 5:70-75
whoaa…God, Jesus, Mary in the same sentence. Can God get this wrong?
Zamakhshari admitted that this passage was attacking the belief in Father, Mary and Jesus as three gods:
**‘The gods are three.’ ACCORDING TO THE EVIDENCE OF THE QUR’AN, the Christians maintain that God, Christ, and Mary are three gods, and that Christ is the child of God by Mary, **
Not one single verse is correct. Pray tell, how can all-knowing Allah commit such huge theological mistakes?
2-and **say not, Three **(thalathatun). Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son,
how on earth can you believe an all-knowing God does not know Christian theology?
God is One so say not 3 gods. . The Trinity=One God, not 3 gods. Pretty poor refutation if Allah understod that Trinity= One God. It works well if Allah understood the Trinity is 3 gods. If he understood this then he is not God.
Far from his glory to have a son?? of course because Allah/Muhammas understood PHYSICALLY.
Wonderful Originator of the heavens and the earth! How could He have a son when He has no consort
Do you really believe God got a very Jewish title so wrong?
3-They indeed have disbelieved who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary
wrong theology, again. The correction formulation is : Jesus is God because God is Father, Word, Spirit.
4-They are unbelievers who say, 'God is the Third of Three (thalithu thalathatin). No god is there but One God…The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; Messengers before him passed away; **his mother **was a just woman; they both ate food. Behold, how We make clear the signs to them; then behold, how they perverted are! S. 5:70-75
whoaa…God, Jesus, Mary in the same sentence. Can God get this wrong?
Zamakhshari admitted that this passage was attacking the belief in Father, Mary and Jesus as three gods:
**‘The gods are three.’ ACCORDING TO THE EVIDENCE OF THE QUR’AN, the Christians maintain that God, Christ, and Mary are three gods, and that Christ is the child of God by Mary, **
Not one single verse is correct. Pray tell, how can all-knowing Allah commit such huge theological mistakes?
M
Montalban
Guest
Muhammed allowed lying amongst his followers (in order to murder 'enemis of al-lah), and he said al-lah himself deceived people - causing them to believe Jesus had been killed.
Who would believe a liar who worships a liar?
Who would believe a liar who worships a liar?
D
De_Maria
Guest
But Jesus Christ the Son of Mary cured the ill, the lame and the blind and brought people back from the dead.It is often the simple signs that we see everyday that are the most telling.
005:075
Christ the son of Mary was no more than an apostle; many were the apostles that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how God doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!
Moses parted the waters, brought down plagues upon the Egyptians.
What did Mohammed do to prove his prophethood? Absolutely nothing.
D
De_Maria
Guest
More proof that the Mohammed was error prone and did not know much about religion.The point here really is not that Jesus and Mary (pbut) ate food but rather that they ate EVERYDAY of their lives.
Did you forget that Mary and Jesus are both of Jewish stock raised in Jewish customs. Did you forget that Jews believed in fasting? Did you forget about Jesus 40 days in the desert?If Jesus (pbuh) was divine, then why on earth was it necessary for him to eat food everyday of his life?
No wonder no one can interpret the Quran. It doesn’t mean what it says.Christians often accuse Muslims of not even knowing what the Trinity is, pointing out that the Qur’an sets it up as Allah the Father, Jesus the Son, and Mary his mother. While veneration of Mary has been a figment of the Catholic Church since 431 when she was given the title “Mother of God” by the Council of Ephesus, a closer examination of the verse in the Qur’an (5:116) most often cited by Christians in support of their accusation, shows that the designation of Mary by the Qur’an as a “member” of the Trinity, is simply not true.
That is true. It erroneously considers Allah, Jesus and Mary as the Trinity.While the Qur’an does condemn both trinitarianism (the Qur’an 4:17) and the worship of Jesus and his mother Mary (the Qur’an 5:116), nowhere does it identify the actual three components of the Christian Trinity.
Nope, it is abundantly clear that the Quran says that Allah, Jesus and Mary are the Trinity.The position of the Qur’an is that WHO or WHAT comprises this doctrine is not important; what is important is that the very notion of a Trinity is an affront against the concept of One God.
The following is an excerpt from a webpage:
*O People of the Book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Al-Masih 'Isa the son of Maryam was (no more than) A Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Maryam, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not “Trinity”: desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One God: glory be to Him: (far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairsa) The word “Trinity” appears in the Holy Qur’an in verses 4:171
*Seems to me that Mohammed’s mentioning of Jesus and Mary in the same statement which denounces the Trinity is proof that he believes that is what composes the Trinity. Especially when coupled with the denouncing of having Jesus and Mary as Gods besides Allah.But what is this Spirit which proceeds from Allah?
*They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them Why turn they not to Allah and seek His Forgiveness? For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Mercifuland 5:73.
*
This verse does not mention the composition of the Trinity.
But this verse gives Catholics the name “People of the Book”. Since Protestants did no exist at the time Mohammed wrote this passage, this is another error. We are not people of the book. We are people of the Word of God.In these two verses the name of Mary is not mentioned as “the third Person of the Holy Trinity”. Not withstanding that as an argument, here are the observed facts.
[5.77] Say: ‘People of the Book! Do not exaggerate your religion, other than the truth, and do not follow the desires of a people who went astray before, and led many astray, and, (once again) have gone astray from the Straight Path.’
CONT’D
D
De_Maria
Guest
CONT’D
Allah, Kalimat-Allah, and Ruh-Allah
God, the Word of God and the Holy Spirit.
Hmmm? Curioser and curioser.
Correct.b) The carved or molten images and/or statues of Jesus Christ and his mother Mary, in various sizes and shapes, are to be found in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, all around the world.
As well as many Saints.c) Most of these Sacred Statues or Images are placed in the prominent places of the Prayer Halls of these Christian Churches for the purpose of venerating and worshipping of these entities.
Correct.d) One would also notice that the majority of the attending congregates would kneel, worship, venerate and pray before these Holy Images as their reverent rituals and inherited traditions. Many devoted believers would place lighted candles in front of these Sacred Statues or Images before worshipping or paying their homage to them.
Correct.e) These Catholic and Orthodox congregates who venerate Lord Jesus as their God and Virgin Mary as the “Mother of God”, do form the bulk of the Christians community. It has been so since the inception of the Roman Catholic Church. The Protestants, who separated from the Roman Catholics, nearly ten centuries after the advent of Islam, do not have the Statues of Mother Mary in their Churches.
Correct.f) In 1998, according to the Encyclopedia Britannia there were 1040 million Catholics and only 361 million Protestants.
Correct.g) These observations clearly indicate that Virgin Mary has been venerated with hyperdulia, along with her son Jesus, by the majority of the Christians, from the early years of the Catholicism.
h) As for the Holy Ghost, the third person of the Holy Trinity, no Christian Church has so far instituted its venerating representation, image or semblance for their Churchgoers.
The obvious conclusion is that for all practical purpose and in reality, when the issue is of Worshipping, Venerating, Deifying and/or Idolizing, it is Mary - the “Mother of God” and not the Holy Ghost has that kind of rank and status. Briefly, the historical figures of Jesus and Mary are venerated as Deities. The Holy Ghost is not venerated as a Deity. To the outsider person who is not knowledgeable about true Catholic worship. We have many prayers and devotions to the Holy Spirit which do not require the veneration of statues or other symbols. But God knows. And Allah doesn’t! That is the point. Allah sees with the eyes of a mortal. Mohammed’s eyes.The Truth
One more ting…although the Quran condemns the Trinity of Allah, Jesus and Mary, the Quran mentions the components of the true Trinity:003.085
And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.
Allah, Kalimat-Allah, and Ruh-Allah
God, the Word of God and the Holy Spirit.
Hmmm? Curioser and curioser.
D
De_Maria
Guest
Excuse me, but isn’t it one of the pillars of your faith that you must make a pilgrimage to Mecca to kneel before and kiss a black stone?The point here really is not that Jesus and Mary (pbut) ate food but rather that they ate EVERYDAY of their lives…
The Truth
Code:The obvious conclusion is that for all practical purpose and in reality, when the issue is of Worshipping, Venerating, Deifying and/or Idolizing, it is Mary -**...****.**
Is that black stone Allah?
I
inJESUS
Guest
H
hamba2han
Guest
The Black Stone - Hajar al- Aswad - is NOT mentioned in the Quran. The Black Stone is located about five feet from the ground on the East corner of the Kaaba (this corner is known as “al-rukn al-Aswad”).Excuse me, but isn’t it one of the pillars of your faith that you must make a pilgrimage to Mecca to kneel before and kiss a black stone?
Is that black stone Allah?
While there are traditions about kissing or touching the Stone, its real significance is as marker of the point at which one starts the Tawaaf (circumambulation of the Kaaba as part of hajj or umra). Even the traditions which talk about kissing or touching the stone are VERY CLEAR that the Stone is JUST A STONE!
BUKHARI:
Volume 2, Book 26, Number 667:
Narrated 'Abis bin Rabia: Umar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said “NO DOUBT, I KNOW THAT YOU ARE A STONE AND CAN NEITHER BENEFIT ANYONE NOR HARM ANYONE. Had I not seen Allah’s Apostle kissing you I would not have kissed you.”
Volume 2, Book 26, Number 675:
Narrated Zaid bin Aslam from his father who said: “Umar bin Al-Khattab addressed the Corner (Black Stone) saying, ‘BY ALLAH! I KNOW THAT YOU ARE A STONE AND CAN NEITHER BENEFIT NOR HARM. Had I not seen the Prophet touching (and kissing) you, I would never have touched (and kissed) you.’ Then he kissed it and said, ‘There is no reason for us to do Ramal (in Tawaf) except that we wanted to show off before the pagans, and now Allah has destroyed them.’ 'Umar added, ‘(Nevertheless), the Prophet did that and we do not want to leave it (i.e. Ramal).’”
MUSLIM:
Book 007, Number 2914:
Abdullah b. Sarjis reported: I saw the bald one, i. e. 'Umar b. Khattib (Allah be pleased with him). kissing the Stone and saying: BY ALLAH. I AM KISSING WITH FULL CONSCIOUSNESS OF THE FACT THAT YOU ARE A STONE AND THAT YOU CAN NEITHER DO ANY HARM NOR GOOD; and if I had not seen Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) kissing you. I would not have kissed you.
The Stone is not be worshiped or regarded as anything but a marker.
H
hamba2han
Guest
Where in the Qur’an are the components of the Trinity mentioned?One more ting…although the Quran condemns the Trinity of Allah, Jesus and Mary, the Quran mentions the components of the true Trinity:
Allah, Kalimat-Allah, and Ruh-Allah
God, the Word of God and the Holy Spirit.
Hmmm? Curioser and curioser.
I
inJESUS
Guest
The Black Stone - Hajar al- Aswad - is NOT mentioned in the Quran. The Black Stone is located about five feet from the ground on the East corner of the Kaaba (this corner is known as “al-rukn al-Aswad”).
are VERY CLEAR that the Stone is JUST A STONE!
I
inJESUS
Guest
And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, (9:6)Where in the Qur’an are the components of the Trinity mentioned?
Thou wilt not find any people who believe in God and the Last Day, loving those who resist God and His Apostle, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with a spirit from Himself. (58:22)
Here we learn that all good and righteous men are strengthened by God with the holy spirit. If anything the phrase used here is stronger, “a spirit from Himself”. Whenever anyone offers his heart in faith and purity to God, God accepts it, engraves that Faith on the seeker’s heart, and further fortifies him with** the divine spirit which we can no more define adequately than we can define in human language the nature and attributes of God. **(Yusuf Ali, The Holy Qur’an, p. 1518).
“Go, O my sons, and ascertain concerning Joseph and his brother, and despair not the **Spirit of Allah **[Ruh-Allah]” (Surah 12, Joseph: 87).
Unless people should not despair an angel, and unless an angel is omnipotent and omnipresent, then the Holy Spirit is God, not an angel.
B
Booklover
Guest
How does it feel for a Muslim to be accused of idolatry for a change? The fact remains that you do kiss the stone. You’re doing the same thing you accuse us of. Very hypocritical!The Black Stone - Hajar al- Aswad - is NOT mentioned in the Quran. The Black Stone is located about five feet from the ground on the East corner of the Kaaba (this corner is known as “al-rukn al-Aswad”).
While there are traditions about kissing or touching the Stone, its real significance is as marker of the point at which one starts the Tawaaf (circumambulation of the Kaaba as part of hajj or umra). Even the traditions which talk about kissing or touching the stone are VERY CLEAR that the Stone is JUST A STONE!
BUKHARI:
Volume 2, Book 26, Number 667:
Narrated 'Abis bin Rabia: Umar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said “NO DOUBT, I KNOW THAT YOU ARE A STONE AND CAN NEITHER BENEFIT ANYONE NOR HARM ANYONE. Had I not seen Allah’s Apostle kissing you I would not have kissed you.”
Volume 2, Book 26, Number 675:
Narrated Zaid bin Aslam from his father who said: “Umar bin Al-Khattab addressed the Corner (Black Stone) saying, ‘BY ALLAH! I KNOW THAT YOU ARE A STONE AND CAN NEITHER BENEFIT NOR HARM. Had I not seen the Prophet touching (and kissing) you, I would never have touched (and kissed) you.’ Then he kissed it and said, ‘There is no reason for us to do Ramal (in Tawaf) except that we wanted to show off before the pagans, and now Allah has destroyed them.’ 'Umar added, ‘(Nevertheless), the Prophet did that and we do not want to leave it (i.e. Ramal).’”
MUSLIM:
Book 007, Number 2914:
Abdullah b. Sarjis reported: I saw the bald one, i. e. 'Umar b. Khattib (Allah be pleased with him). kissing the Stone and saying: BY ALLAH. I AM KISSING WITH FULL CONSCIOUSNESS OF THE FACT THAT YOU ARE A STONE AND THAT YOU CAN NEITHER DO ANY HARM NOR GOOD; and if I had not seen Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) kissing you. I would not have kissed you.
The Stone is not be worshiped or regarded as anything but a marker.
What if we Christians are right, and the Quran is in fact the word of a man and not of God?? Who are you really worshipping?
" It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path."
.80 Obeying Mohammed is obeying Allah.
**48:10. **Verily, those who give pledge to you (O Muhammad) they are giving pledge to Allâh.
According to these verses, Muhammad is elevated to the height of a god, since obeying him is the same as obeying God. Are you not ascribing partners to Allah as well??
Vickie
H
hamba2han
Guest
The ONLY reason why Muslims kiss the stone is because the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself was seen kissing the stone.yeaa and what is a statue if not mere stone? did you hear any Christian saying that if a statue of Mary is shattered into pieces it means that Mary died? Moses was aked by God to put 2 carved angelic stones in the temple. Surely Jesus did not say : they disbelieve who carve angelic stones and worship them as God.
If Jesus said it it means He did not understand what He is talking about and of course Jesus did not. Muhammad did. If by thinking that veneration or making statues it means adoration or making partners with God that’s because that is how much he understood.
In the case of the statues of Mary, did Jesus (pbuh) himself ever placed any statues of his mother in the temple?
If the answer is ‘NO’, then why on earth are Christians doing it?
NONE of the verses that you have cited mentions anything about the components of the Trinity.And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, (9:6)
Thou wilt not find any people who believe in God and the Last Day, loving those who resist God and His Apostle, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with a spirit from Himself. (58:22)
Here we learn that all good and righteous men are strengthened by God with the holy spirit. If anything the phrase used here is stronger, “a spirit from Himself”. Whenever anyone offers his heart in faith and purity to God, God accepts it, engraves that Faith on the seeker’s heart, and further fortifies him with** the divine spirit which we can no more define adequately than we can define in human language the nature and attributes of God. **(Yusuf Ali, The Holy Qur’an, p. 1518).
“Go, O my sons, and ascertain concerning Joseph and his brother, and despair not the **Spirit of Allah **[Ruh-Allah]” (Surah 12, Joseph: 87).
Unless people should not despair an angel, and unless an angel is omnipotent and omnipresent, then the Holy Spirit is God, not an angel.
I
inJESUS
Guest
The ONLY
reason why Muslims kiss the stone is because the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself was seen kissing the stone. yet we are not running after you calling your prophet an idolator, are we? the stone represent something for you, just like a statue represents something for us.
In the case of the statues of Mary, did Jesus (pbuh) himself ever placed any statues of his mother in the temple?
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