The appearances of Mary....

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The Catholic Church emphatically states that Marian apparitions can never add anything new to the deposit of faith, and belief in MA is never required by the CC. With that said: The appearances of Mary and the miraculous nature of these appearances and associated messages, which are always in keeping with scripture, throughout history, in different parts of the world, have brought millions to Christ and have resulted in conversions, repentance, growth in holiness and an improved prayer life.

Non-Catholics, even though no one is required, by the CC, to believe, don’t you at least find these facts rather prodigiously compelling? I only ask because they had such an amazing impact on me as a former non-Catholic, and again, they remain, according to the CC, outside the purview of the deposit of faith. Jesus is our one and only savior and these apparitions merely point to her Son Jesus Christ.
Joe I would never discount how GOD may reach any or all of us to come to our faith. Only GOD knows and understands what it takes for any person to come to Christ. Having said that I’m always guarded with these supposed apparitions because of the surrounding circumstances and actual content of the message.

The Fatima message was at a time when Portugal was struggling economically and the aftermath of that “supposed event” had a profound impact on their tourism which of course greatly benefited their economy. When further studying the message I have trouble with your assertion that it keeps with scripture when in fact Fatima does not. The Fatima apparition stated that the way to GOD was now through Mary and that the Rosary needed to be recited several times a day in order to achieve salvation. Quite contrary to scripture. I think we walk into dangerous territory when we start placing such an emphasis on Mary or anyone outside of Christ our Savior and GOD our Father. I find it simply amazing that there is such a defense on MAs and so much conversation surrounding Marian doctrines. If that level of effort was placed simply on the great commission Christ gave to us in Matthew then perhaps, just perhaps more would come to Christ.

PEACE
 
Like most, it was the miraculous nature of the events. The miracle of the Sun witnessed by thousands, which included even atheists. Let’s face it when we recognize something as being miraculous, we are of course, drawn to the message.

Garabandal, which has not met the approval of the CC yet, but not rejected either, is really what pushed me off the proverbial fence right into the Tiber; those apparitions of those 4 little innocent girls, over a 3 year period, made my swim real nice. LOL…

And I am a big doubting Thomas when it comes to believing in miracles, but what those 4 little girls did from 1961 to 65, was impossible. So impossible, that dissenters, due to the miraculous nature of them, resort to calling them demonic, and if that is true, well, the war is over, and Satan has given up, for the message is perfectly in line with scripture.
You say you were drawn to the messages because of the miracles. Do you consider the messages to be true based on the miracles or based on the content of the message?

There were allegedly miracles performed in Garabandal, and you indicated that you believe they were authentic. However, in an interview with Conchita Gonzales, conducted by Bishop Garmendia (Source: ourlady.ca/info/conchita2.htm), Conchita said that the apparition told her there would be only three more popes after John XXIII, and then the miracle would come. Benedict is the fourth pope since John XXIII. Doesn’t this mean the prophecy is false? And what does false prophecy say about the alleged miracles?

Excerpt:

Conchita: At the time, Pope John XXIII was living. The Virgin said, “Three more Popes are left; there will be only three more Popes.” She was then speaking about the end of the times.
 
You say you were drawn to the messages because of the miracles. Do you consider the messages to be true based on the miracles or based on the content of the message?

There were allegedly miracles performed in Garabandal, and you indicated that you believe they were authentic. However, in an interview with Conchita Gonzales, conducted by Bishop Garmendia (Source: ourlady.ca/info/conchita2.htm), Conchita said that the apparition told her there would be only three more popes after John XXIII, and then the miracle would come. Benedict is the fourth pope since John XXIII. Doesn’t this mean the prophecy is false? And what does false prophecy say about the alleged miracles?

Excerpt:

Conchita: At the time, Pope John XXIII was living. The Virgin said, “Three more Popes are left; there will be only three more Popes.” She was then speaking about the end of the times.
Probly was exactly why the Vatican didn’t make any other movement on Garabandal. Why would they? They could simply wait and really see what will happen. They flew her to the Vatican and questioned her for two-hours on that statement though.
 
There were allegedly miracles performed in Garabandal, and you indicated that you believe they were authentic. However, in an interview with Conchita Gonzales, conducted by Bishop Garmendia (Source: ourlady.ca/info/conchita2.htm), Conchita said that the apparition told her there would be only three more popes after John XXIII, and then the miracle would come. Benedict is the fourth pope since John XXIII. Doesn’t this mean the prophecy is false? And what does false prophecy say about the alleged miracles?
Unless, of course, your sedavacantist, and believe there hasn’t been a pope since John XXIII. 😃

Jon
 
There have been many recorded in the Orthodox Church as well, one in particular during the Fourth Crusade called the Crusaders “Enemies of my son”. Do you find that rather compelling? If not why should I find the appearance in the Catholic Church compelling?
This is interesting. Actually the Pope forbade the Crusaders to deviate from their path to Jerusalem, and when they did, he excommunicated the whole party that went to Constantinople. Those who went to Constantinople to put that guy who invited them into power, and later sacked Constantinople when he couldn’t pay them as promised beforehand, were actually in a state of excommunication while they did all of that at Constantinople. From a Catholic standpoint, you could call them “enemies of Christ”, since from the Catholic standpoint, the Pope speaks for Christ, being the vicar of Christ. The Catholic Church probably has no official stance on the apparition you mentioned (was it an apparition of Theotokos in Constantinople?), but it’s interesting to mention that this particular case doesn’t seem to contradict the Catholic Church’s stance.

I’m aware of other purported miracles in the EOC, though, that do contradict the CC.

I’ve read on the orthodoxinfo.com website that when the EP of Constantinople transitioned to the New Calendar (Gregorian Calendar) in 1923, he also moved Pascha to the New Calendar date. However, the miracle of the Holy Fire did not occur that year according to the New Calendar date in Jerusalem, it occurred at the Old Calendar date. Thus, he moved the date of Pascha back to the Old Calendar (Julian Calendar) calculation, while keeping the New Calendar calculation for the un-moveable Feasts (Christmas etc). However, again according to the orthodoxinfo website, there occurred yet another miracle on the Feast of Exaltation of the Holy Cross. Namely, the New Calendar folks were already finished commemorating the Feast, but 13 days later, those who refused to transition to the New Calendar, were having the Feast according to the ancient calendar. And on that day, a cross appeared in the sky, and it was witnessed by the faithful who were gathered. I don’t remember, did this happen on Mt. Athos, or somewhere else in Greece. And according to those EO who reject the New Calendar, this miracle was proof that the New Calendar is against the will of God, since God sent this miracle to endorse the celebration of that Feast according to the Old Calendar.

I guess the above story is controversial within Orthodox circles, since it’s at the heart of the Old Calendar - New Calendar controversy. I don’t know more about it, i.e. is it accepted by those EO Christians who use the New Calendar, etc.

A famous miraculous story in Russian Eastern Orthodoxy is the Icon of Theotokos of Kazan, found by a 13-year old girl, buried, after the Tatar invasion receeded, in the 15th century if I’m not mistaken. She was led by miraculous events (dreams and miraculous lights) to the place where the Icon was to be found.

Another beautiful story from Russian Orthodoxy is when an ordinary woman visited St. Seraphim of Sarov, and she witnessed the apparition of several saints, including the Theotokos herself and St. Borbala (St. Barbara), at the place where St. Seraphim and this woman were standing.

Yet another widely known miracle from Russian Orthodoxy is when the Theotokos appeared in the sky, and was seen by a large number of Soviet (Russian) and Nazi (German) soldiers fighting each other, during WWII.

And finally, I’m aware that the onion cupolas of some Russian EO churches got a miraculous gold covering and golden shine, at the height of godless persecution in the Soviet Union.

As for stories outside of Russia, we can’t fail to mention the apparitions of Theotokos at Zeitoun (suburb of Cairo, Egypt, 1968-72), witnessed by as many as 2 million people over a period of some 4 years - including Nasser the Egyptian President, Coptic Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox Bishops and priests, the Coptic Pope, Roman Catholic Bishops, Priests, Cardinals, the Papal Nuncio to Egypt, and other high-profile personalities. These apparitions happened on top of the Coptic Orthodox Cathedral of St. Mary in Zeitoun. Interestingly, the apparitions in Zeitoun and elsewhere in Egypt resumed in late 2009 - early 2010. The apparitions of 1968-72 took place at a time when Christians in Egypt were persecuted and anti-Christian genocide was a very real possibility. Theotokos’ apparitions might have played a significant role that genocide was averted then. And now, I find it very significant that Theotokos started to appear again in Egypt in 2009-2010, and lo and behold, we witness a new wave of anti-Christian persecution and terrorist attacks in Egypt. My theory is that Theotokos came back to Egypt to strengthen the Christians there, and to induce peace and understanding in the hearts of well-meaning Muslims.

We should also mention Soufanieh, in Damascus, Syria. Theotokos has been appearing there since 1982. Myrna Nazzour, to whom she has been appearing, is a Melkite Catholic married to Nicholas Nazzour, her husband belongs to the Greek Eastern Orthodox Church. Jesus Christ also appeared several times to Myrna and instructed the Christians there to unify the Feast, i.e. that they should celebrate Pascha on the same day, as a first step towards reunification of Orthodox and Catholic Christians.

Both Zeitoun (also spelled Zeitun) and Soufanieh are fully approved by the CC, otherwise I wouldn’t mention them.
 
Then, I happened to see a TV program about her apparitions at Fatima, Portugal (1917), in the series entitled “Unsolved Mysteries”. My jaw dropped even lower. 😃

In fact, I grew up under the scourge of Communism, in an atheistic, Communist dictatorship (Romania). And Holy Mary appeared in Portugal and prophesied this, in 1917, essentially before the Bolshevik Revolution that took place on November 7, 1917 in Russia! Wow! Mary’s apparitions to the children of Fatima took place between May 13 and October 13, 1917.

God constantly guides his Church by both ordinary means (the Pope, the Bishops, the Magisterium of the Catholic Church) and by extraordinary, miraculous events. I’m so happy to be a Catholic. 😃
Like most, it was the miraculous nature of the events. The miracle of the Sun witnessed by thousands, which included even atheists. Let’s face it when we recognize something as being miraculous, we are of course, drawn to the message.
And I am a big doubting Thomas when it comes to believing in miracles, but what those 4 little girls did from 1961 to 65, was impossible. So impossible, that dissenters, due to the miraculous nature of them, resort to calling them demonic, and if that is true, well, the war is over, and Satan has given up, for the message is perfectly in line with scripture.

"

Joe and Joseph…thanks for your accounts. As for me, being a cradle Catholic, when I learned of Lourdes and Fatima and Guadalupe, these were faith affirming/strengthening for me.

Fatima especially, when I watched a documentary about it, and one of the lesser known appearances to the 3 children, I think occurred before the Oct 13 miracle. In this vision or apparition, an angel shows himself to the 3 children holding a host over a chalice, like at mass when the priest states…This is the lamb of God… But what really affirmed it for me was that the host was dripping of blood, and the blood dripping into the chalice.

I hope you both can see “The 13th Day”…it is a better recounting of the events of Fatima than the 1950s or so movie about it.
 
Joe I would never discount how GOD may reach any or all of us to come to our faith. Only GOD knows and understands what it takes for any person to come to Christ. Having said that I’m always guarded with these supposed apparitions because of the surrounding circumstances and actual content of the message.

The Fatima message was at a time when Portugal was struggling economically and the aftermath of that “supposed event” had a profound impact on their tourism which of course greatly benefited their economy. When further studying the message I have trouble with your assertion that it keeps with scripture when in fact Fatima does not. The Fatima apparition stated that the way to GOD was now through Mary and that the Rosary needed to be recited several times a day in order to achieve salvation. Quite contrary to scripture. I think we walk into dangerous territory when we start placing such an emphasis on Mary or anyone outside of Christ our Savior and GOD our Father. I find it simply amazing that there is such a defense on MAs and so much conversation surrounding Marian doctrines. If that level of effort was placed simply on the great commission Christ gave to us in Matthew then perhaps, just perhaps more would come to Christ.

PEACE
ND…thank you for your concern.

The Church investigated the events at Fatima and determined their authencity and conformity with the message of Christ. And I trust a 2000 year old institution, with a great deposit of knowledge, experience, and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, to get it right.

I do not know where you got your statement about the rosary, but I would suggest that you re-read the various messages of Fatima. If I recall properly, one of the messages was to pray the rosary for the conversion of sinners, which in turn leads to salvation.
 
Brian Culliton;7462195]You say you were drawn to the messages because of the miracles. Do you consider the messages to be true based on the miracles or based on the content of the message?
The confirmed miracles drew me to them. I believe the message is true because it is agreement with what scripture and the CC teaches, and I defer to the CC.
There were allegedly miracles performed in Garabandal, and you indicated that you believe they were authentic. However, in an interview with Conchita Gonzales, conducted by Bishop Garmendia (Source: ourlady.ca/info/conchita2.htm), Conchita said that the apparition told her there would be only three more popes after John XXIII, and then the miracle would come. Benedict is the fourth pope since John XXIII. Doesn’t this mean the prophecy is false? And what does false prophecy say about the alleged miracles?
Excerpt:

Conchita: At the time, Pope John XXIII was living. The Virgin said, “Three more Popes are left; there will be only three more Popes.” She was then speaking about the end of the times.

What those 4 little girls did was impossible. Check it out. The objection is made that the visionary Conchita said that there would only be three more Popes after John the 23rd. This objection is based on a misunderstanding of what she said. Conchita did not say that there would be only three more Popes ever, but that after the reigns of three more Popes were completed, then the events predicted at Garabandal (which begin with the Warning) will occur. Therefore, the Warning will occur during the reign of the fourth Pope after Pope John 23, which is the current Pope Benedict 16. (The succession of relevant popes is: John 23, Paul 6, John Paul 1, John Paul 2, Benedict 16).

Keeping in mind that the CC has not made a decision; this is just my opinion. 👍
 
The Fatima apparition stated that the way to GOD was now through Mary and that the Rosary needed to be recited several times a day in order to achieve salvation. Quite contrary to scripture.
If you want to reject MA’s, that’s cool. I was just curious what people thought. The Rosary is the prayer of scripture and prayer is good. I say the Our Father over and over even without the Rosary. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven… Wouldn’t that be something! It does not state that Mary is now the way to God. A devotion to Mary’s sacred heart is not a bad thing.
I find it simply amazing that there is such a defense on MAs and so much conversation surrounding Marian doctrines. If that level of effort was placed simply on the great commission Christ gave to us in Matthew then perhaps, just perhaps more would come to Christ.
As a former agnostic, they helped bring me closer to Jesus Christ, by chasing my doubts away. MA’s point to her Son, as the savior of the world. They point to said great commission Christ.

Peace…
 
While we simply don’t know what the implications of Fatima will be in the present day. The escalation of evil is in no doubt.

The miracles of Fatima haven’t yet stopped either. Pope John Paul II was shot 64 years to the day of the First appearence of Our lady of Fatima on May 13th. Which Benedict also spoke at Fatima last May 13th 2010 and made it know He too is a pilgram at Fatima.

Saint Padre Pio was also one of the first to join the Blue Army over 60 years ago to help in there mission to bring the message of world peace to mankind. Since he has been canonized Saint. And rightfully so, while there may be doubt with some of the Saints, There is no doubt of Padre Pio being touched by God. And Pio was a firm believer in Prayer through Our Lady for the reparation of sin.

Coincidence? Not with Providence
 
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