The Argument from Desire

  • Thread starter Thread starter Charlemagne_III
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
This is all well and good, but not an absolute proof.

EDIT: I think Fr. Barron’s statement that some desires are artificial and have no object, such as wanting to fly, is inaccurate. I do not think even any “artificial” desire cannot correspond to something which is at least theoretically possible. In this case, being able to fly is theoretically possible.

To clarify, one cannot have as a real object of desire, a square circle.
 
blase6 said:
This is all well and good, but not an absolute proof.

EDIT: I think Fr. Barron’s statement that some desires are artificial and have no object, such as wanting to fly, is inaccurate. I do not think even any “artificial” desire cannot correspond to something which is at least theoretically possible. In this case, being able to fly is theoretically possible.

To clarify, one cannot have as a real object of desire, a square circle.
Click to expand...
I have no idea what you are trying to say.

What constitutes “proof” to a solipsist?
Perhaps it is the actual encounter with reality that is constantly being undermined by the intellect.
You’ve got yourself a problem here.

BTW: I believe you aren’t hungry enough for God. That’s why you failed to understand the argument.
 
Aloysium said:
I have no idea what you are trying to say.

What constitutes “proof” to a solipsist?
Perhaps it is the actual encounter with reality that is constantly being undermined by the intellect.
You’ve got yourself a problem here.

BTW: I believe you aren’t hungry enough for God. That’s why you failed to understand the argument.
Click to expand...
Like I said, proof for a statement can come only when experience shows that the counter-statement is false. Before I can know God certainly, I must see that God cannot not exist.
 
blase6 said:
Not the point of my argument. I was saying that Fr. Barron’s claim that some desires have no real object is false.
Click to expand...
I had a friend who at the age of ten wrapped a red towel around his neck, climbed a tree, leaped from a fairly high limb and broke his ankle upon landing.

No Superboy he! 😃

The desire had no real object.

Later, as an adult, he doubtless learned to fly, but not with a towel around his neck.

We tend to desire that which is possible, rather than the impossible.

That is why desiring God so much opens the door to God’s possibility.

I wonder how many atheists wish they could believe God exists.

If they would just believe God is possible, they might find the desire for God.
 
Charlemagne_III said:
I had a friend who at the age of ten wrapped a red towel around his neck, climbed a tree, leaped from a fairly high limb and broke his ankle upon landing.

No Superboy he! 😃

The desire had no real object.

Later, as an adult, he doubtless learned to fly, but not with a towel around his neck.
Click to expand...
The desire to fly was a real object, because it had meaning. A square circle does not have valid meaning.
 
blase6 said:
The desire to fly was a real object, because it had meaning. A square circle does not have valid meaning.
Click to expand...
The desire to fly was not a real object because it was not possible, like a square circle.
 
Charlemagne_III said:
The desire to fly was not a real object because it was not possible, like a square circle.
Click to expand...
I mean possible as in, could really happen. There could be some fluke or miracle where his body was changed to support flight. A square circle is not real because if we take the words “square” and “circle”, which have contradicting definitions, and put them together, we have a contradiction, which has no real meaning.
 
blase6 said:
I mean possible as in, could really happen. There could be some fluke or miracle where his body was changed to support flight. A square circle is not real because if we take the words “square” and “circle”, which have contradicting definitions, and put them together, we have a contradiction, which has no real meaning.
Click to expand...
Isn’t it equally a contradiction to put man and bird together. There never was an Icarus.

Icarus is no more possible than a square circle.

God is possible not because God is a contradiction, but because God transcends human logic.
 
Charlemagne_III said:
Isn’t it equally a contradiction to put man and bird together. There never was an Icarus.

Icarus is no more possible than a square circle.

God is possible not because God is a contradiction, but because God transcends human logic.
Click to expand...
A man with wings is not a contradiction?
 
blase6 said:
Then how do you say you know God exists certainly?
Click to expand...
I think it fitting that my commenting that I could not understand your post should later be followed by one on my part that was as unintelligible. I seem to have thrown in one too many negatives

What I meant to say is that I cannot see how God cannot exist.

God is in everything as its Creator. His existence and His nature are self-evident.

However, like when I stub my toe, you have to stretch your imagination to comprehend what is my absolute reality - ouch!

How are we to communicate?
There is nothing I can say that your mind cannot negate.
Additionally, you have to be able to hear what the words are poorly describing. I can only use terms which relate to that which is of this world, and if you think that their common meaning is what I mean, well, it will sound like nonsense. So, if you do not know what I am talking about, you cannot know.

I’ll try anyway:
God is to be seen in the miracle, the mystery of everything,
each person, in their struggles, in their pain and the overwhelming meaning of the experience in their life;
He is seen in the love that pierces the heart of creation
timeless and with no spatial dimension, an ocean of compassion
fills every nook and cranny, every moment in time.

He who is Love Itself, brings all this into existence and comforts us, His children in our suffering.

One of the problems with intellectualization is that it reduces life to a bunch of problems to be solved.
The abyss of ignorance becomes filled with data and facts which dull the mind as they entrap the soul, which might otherwise soar joyously.

We yearn to know Him ever more profoundly, to know the truth, that love that fills us with hope, joy, and peace;
we hunger for our Home, the Source of all this beauty, where we are together united in His infinite love.
 
Aloysium said:
I think it fitting that my commenting that I could not understand your post should later be followed by one on my part that was as unintelligible. I seem to have thrown in one too many negatives

What I meant to say is that I cannot see how God cannot exist.

God is in everything as its Creator. His existence and His nature are self-evident.

However, like when I stub my toe, you have to stretch your imagination to comprehend what is my absolute reality - ouch!

How are we to communicate?
There is nothing I can say that your mind cannot negate.
Additionally, you have to be able to hear what the words are poorly describing. I can only use terms which relate to that which is of this world, and if you think that their common meaning is what I mean, well, it will sound like nonsense. So, if you do not know what I am talking about, you cannot know.

I’ll try anyway:
God is to be seen in the miracle, the mystery of everything,
each person, in their struggles, in their pain and the overwhelming meaning of the experience in their life;
He is seen in the love that pierces the heart of creation
timeless and with no spatial dimension, an ocean of compassion
fills every nook and cranny, every moment in time.

He who is Love Itself, brings all this into existence and comforts us, His children in our suffering.

One of the problems with intellectualization is that it reduces life to a bunch of problems to be solved.
The abyss of ignorance becomes filled with data and facts which dull the mind as they entrap the soul, which might otherwise soar joyously.

We yearn to know Him ever more profoundly, to know the truth, that love that fills us with hope, joy, and peace;
we hunger for our Home, the Source of all this beauty, where we are together united in His infinite love.
Click to expand...
Authentic knowledge is based in the intellect. For me to know God certainly I must first know God intellectually certainly. Otherwise, I could try to follow what you describe by abandoning the judgement of my reason, which may be satisfying at first, but would destroy my rational connection to reality. And as I see now, pursuing an intellectual knowledge of God is a danger to my faith if I cannot see how God exists certainly.

It is this tension within me of desire and intellect that is difficult to live with.
 
blase6 said:
Authentic knowledge is based in the intellect. For me to know God certainly I must first know God intellectually certainly. Otherwise, I could try to follow what you describe by abandoning the judgement of my reason, which may be satisfying at first, but would destroy my rational connection to reality. And as I see now, pursuing an intellectual knowledge of God is a danger to my faith if I cannot see how God exists certainly.

It is this tension within me of desire and intellect that is difficult to live with.
Click to expand...
The poet Francis Thompson deals with this theme in his great poem The Hound of Heaven. In it he figures God as in pursuit of us, because we are fleeing Him. Therefore if we sense that God is pursuing us, we have as much conviction as we need. Or if we feel we are fleeing God, we have as much conviction as we need. Think with the heart as well as with the head’

Here is the first stanza of that great poem.

The Hound of Heaven
By Francis Thompson (1859–1907)

I FLED Him, down the nights and down the days;
I fled Him, down the arches of the years;
I fled Him, down the labyrinthine ways
Of my own mind; and in the mist of tears
I hid from Him, and under running laughter.
Up vistaed hopes I sped;
And shot, precipitated,
Adown Titanic glooms of chasmèd fears,
From those strong Feet that followed, followed after.
But with unhurrying chase,
And unperturbèd pace,
Deliberate speed, majestic instancy,
They beat—and a Voice beat
More instant than the Feet—
‘All things betray thee, who betrayest Me.’
 
Charlemagne_III said:
The poet Francis Thompson deals with this theme in his great poem The Hound of Heaven. In it he figures God as in pursuit of us, because we are fleeing Him. Therefore if we sense that God is pursuing us, we have as much conviction as we need. Or if we feel we are fleeing God, we have as much conviction as we need. Think with the heart as well as with the head’

Here is the first stanza of that great poem.

The Hound of Heaven
By Francis Thompson (1859–1907)

I FLED Him, down the nights and down the days;
I fled Him, down the arches of the years;
I fled Him, down the labyrinthine ways
Of my own mind; and in the mist of tears
I hid from Him, and under running laughter.
Up vistaed hopes I sped;
And shot, precipitated,
Adown Titanic glooms of chasmèd fears,
From those strong Feet that followed, followed after.
But with unhurrying chase,
And unperturbèd pace,
Deliberate speed, majestic instancy,
They beat—and a Voice beat
More instant than the Feet—
‘All things betray thee, who betrayest Me.’
Click to expand...
It isn’t enough. I want to know God certainly, and can’t. It’s that simple. Feelings don’t really matter that much in this case.
 
blase6 said:
It isn’t enough. I want to know God certainly, and can’t. It’s that simple. Feelings don’t really matter that much in this case.
Click to expand...
The person who flees God feels something, for sure. Is it fear? And doesn’t that matter? :confused:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top