The Argument from Desire

[blase6]

The person who flees God feels something, for sure. Is it fear? And doesn’t that matter?

Fear out of uncertainty. How can I really know God certainly? What if God is lying to me? What if what people find to be reasonable conclusions aren’t correct?

 

[inocente]

Here is an eight minute talk by Fr. Robert Barron on the Argument from Desire proving the existence of God.

youtube.com/watch?v=X71Gq9a1qxE

What say you?

It is based on a notion that perfect justice, perfect peace, etc., exist as concrete objects, and that a desire for them was placed in us by a designer, both of which are highly disputable even amongst theists. Further, the division between “natural” and “artificial” desires is arbitrary.

Not so much a proof, more an overly-complicated aspirational ad.

 

[Bahman]

Here is an eight minute talk by Fr. Robert Barron on the Argument from Desire proving the existence of God.

youtube.com/watch?v=X71Gq9a1qxE

What say you?

What you are going to do when you completely fulfilled?

 

[inocente]

Fear out of uncertainty. How can I really know God certainly? What if God is lying to me? What if what people find to be reasonable conclusions aren’t correct?

A mustard seed of uncertainty can move mountains. Because once you are certain of something, your mind is closed. You can only be open to new possibilities, only open to correction, if you leave room for uncertainty. Certainty leads to arrogance, humility requires doubt.

So don’t fear uncertainty. Instead, fear a closed mind. Imho.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . How can I really know God certainly? . . .

Certainty in science is associated with such concepts as level of significance, error, deviations from the norm, randomness, etc. I don’t think that is what you mean.
If I understand you correctly, you seek to know beyond a doubt. I am not sure this exists outside the actual Beatific Vision. Even if you were to have a glimpse of it right now in time, it would just as quickly be gone and you might later wonder if you had been hallucinating. Probably not but let’s say that doubt is to faith as death is to life. It may be a form of self-abuse, a temptation of God to be undermining one’s own faith.

Interestingly, you are holding yourself as the final arbiter of truth. You seem to have taken that big step without appreciating what that means. Isn’t this amazing?!? - not only the very existence of oneself, but the ability to know. Even if we conclude that we exist in a state of ignorance, it presupposes a capacity to know truth - to awaken to the Truth, to accept its revelation.

Back to the OP. I am sure that your entire life, you have sought to live (in desperate moments one mourns the loss of fullness of life); you have sought what is beautiful, what is good, what is true. You have looked for love. Side-stepping a lengthy discussion, I will simply say that your entire life has been a search for God.

In reply to your question above, I would say pray, read scripture and other sources provided by the Church, behave in a charitable fashion, giving of yourself to others, participate in the mass and the sacraments. Clearly there are other paths, but this is the fastest and surest way to get to where you want to go.

 

[blase6]

Certainty in science is associated with such concepts as level of significance, error, deviations from the norm, randomness, etc. I don’t think that is what you mean.
If I understand you correctly, you seek to know beyond a doubt. I am not sure this exists outside the actual Beatific Vision. Even if you were to have a glimpse of it right now in time, it would just as quickly be gone and you might later wonder if you had been hallucinating. Probably not but let’s say that doubt is to faith as death is to life. It may be a form of self-abuse, a temptation of God to be undermining one’s own faith.

Interestingly, you are holding yourself as the final arbiter of truth. You seem to have taken that big step without appreciating what that means. Isn’t this amazing?!? - not only the very existence of oneself, but the ability to know. Even if we conclude that we exist in a state of ignorance, it presupposes a capacity to know truth - to awaken to the Truth, to accept its revelation.

Back to the OP. I am sure that your entire life, you have sought to live (in desperate moments one mourns the loss of fullness of life); you have sought what is beautiful, what is good, what is true. You have looked for love. Side-stepping a lengthy discussion, I will simply say that your entire life has been a search for God.

In reply to your question above, I would say pray, read scripture and other sources provided by the Church, behave in a charitable fashion, giving of yourself to others, participate in the mass and the sacraments. Clearly there are other paths, but this is the fastest and surest way to get to where you want to go.

All I have certainly is myself. My experiences of other people, God, etc. are like fleeting illusions. If I just stopped trying to reason, it would be like denying that I could know the full truth and give myself up to immersion in good-feeling illusion.

Since all I have certainly is myself and my reasoning, I must strive to use it to find certain truth in other matter. I will not be satisfied if I cannot.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Certainty leads to arrogance, humility requires doubt.

Certainty also leads to truth. Certainty in itself is not a sin or a crime. Christ was certain of his divinity and his messianic mission.

Doubt is not always the product or cause of humility. Sometimes it is the cause of distrust and leads to arrogance as when people blaspheme God and mock even his existence.

 

[Aloysium]

All I have certainly is myself. My experiences of other people, God, etc. are like fleeting illusions. If I just stopped trying to reason, it would be like denying that I could know the full truth and give myself up to immersion in good-feeling illusion.

Since all I have certainly is myself and my reasoning, I must strive to use it to find certain truth in other matter. I will not be satisfied if I cannot.

What makes you less of an illusion than your “experience of other people, God etc.”?
At the moment that you identify yourself, you are no different than anything else you think about.

 

[blase6]

What makes you less of an illusion than your “experience of other people, God etc.”?
At the moment that you identify yourself, you are no different than anything else you think about.

I know only my thoughts and senses. I do not know the thoughts and senses of others because I am incapable of that experience. It is precisely when attempting to communicate with others that I realize I am alone within myself the most.

 

[Aloysium]

I know only my thoughts and senses. I do not know the thoughts and senses of others because I am incapable of that experience. It is precisely when attempting to communicate with others that I realize I am alone within myself the most.

Who or what is this “I” of which you speak but an idea formed as you create a relationship between the mystery that is yourself and itself.
If everything else cannot be said to exist, oneself does not exist.
As individual spiritual souls, we exist each as self-and-other, communing in Love, the one true Vine.

 

[blase6]

Who or what is this “I” of which you speak but an idea formed as you create a relationship between the mystery that is yourself and itself.
If everything else cannot be said to exist, oneself does not exist.

The “I” refers to the idea of the receiver of the known experiences.

 

[Aloysium]

The “I” refers to the idea of the receiver of the known experiences.

Going with your premises, there is a “receiver”, an experience, and something from which the experience “originates”.

The “source” of the experience in your statement would be yourself, who is “receiving” the experience.
Likewise, with regards to the rest of the world, it is the “source” of other experiences.

Now we can fall prey to hallucinations.
In this case it is our inner mental conflicts, perhaps spontaneous neural activity in the brain that is the “source” of the experience.

Does any of this satisfy a desire for truth?
When in the presence of others and loneliness sets in, what is missing?
What our mind and heart seeks, is to be found and fulfilled in God.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

If nature makes no desires in vain, why would the desire for God be in vain?

Does nature create desires in us that can never be fulfilled? Why would nature do that?

We desire to be warm, so we invent ways to make fire.

We desire to eat, so we invent farms.

We desire to live in peace, so we invent social contracts.

We desire to reach into space, so we invent airplanes.

We desire to protect ourselves, so we invent weapons.

We desire to be immortal, so we invent the soul?

We desire eternal perfection, so we invent God?

Notice that the last two inventions either exist in reality or they do not.

Why should everything else we desire come to exist except the soul and God?

If nature plants these desires in us, we do we resist or fight them?

independent.co.uk/news/science/eternal-life-could-be-achieved-by-procedure-to-lengthen-chromosomes-10020974.html

 

[blase6]

Like I said, that’s all well and good. But there is no certain proof.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Like I said, that’s all well and good. But there is no certain proof.

What is your criteria for “certain proof”?

 

[blase6]

What is your criteria for “certain proof”?

Already gave it. The counter-statement must be absolutely impossible.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Already gave it. The counter-statement must be absolutely impossible.

What if there is no “absolutely impossible,” but there is an “absolutely possible” or an “absolutely probable”? Do possibilities and probabilities not count in your universe?

In other words, if it is possible or probable that God exists, do you still require absolute certainty before you can be comfortable with believing in God.

Jesus and Thomas the Apostle: “Blessed are those who have not seen, but believe.”

Do you require to put your hands in his side and his hands to see the proof?

If you require this, are you blessed or not blessed?

Jesus gives Thomas the absolute proof he requires, then chastises him for requiring it.

 

[blase6]

What if there is no “absolutely impossible,” but there is an “absolutely possible” or an “absolutely probable”? Do possibilities and probabilities not count in your universe?

In other words, if it is possible or probable that God exists, do you still require absolute certainty before you can be comfortable with believing in God.

Jesus and Thomas the Apostle: “Blessed are those who have not seen, but believe.”

Do you require to put your hands in his side and his hands to see the proof?

If you require this, are you blessed or not blessed?

Jesus gives Thomas the absolute proof he requires, then chastises him for requiring it.

“Absolutely probable” - oxymoron

I cannot place absolute trust in what I perceive. I simply can’t know if my perception is correct or not. Most people can get to a point where they give up being skeptical because they find things to be reasonably probable enough for them to place certain trust in it. I cannot, because I recognize that that kind of “proof” is not absolute.

So yes, “in my universe”, probabilities do count enough for me to expect them to be true, but they cannot lead me to place certain trust in them.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

“Absolutely probable” - oxymoron

I cannot place absolute trust in what I perceive. I simply can’t know if my perception is correct or not. Most people can get to a point where they give up being skeptical because they find things to be reasonably probable enough for them to place certain trust in it. I cannot, because I recognize that that kind of “proof” is not absolute.

So yes, “in my universe”, probabilities do count enough for me to expect them to be true, but they cannot lead me to place certain trust in them.

Absolutely probable propositions exist, as opposed to impossibly probable.

I trust you trust absolutely in the probability that I exist. No?

 

[blase6]

Absolutely probable propositions exist, as opposed to impossibly probable.

I trust you trust absolutely in the probability that I exist. No?

Absolute = certain
Probable = not certain
So, oxymoron.

I don’t trust in the probability you exist. But I assume that you do so to get by. That does not mean that I believe without a doubt that you have to be a real person.