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Luvtosew
Guest
No worry, I probably read into it, as so many people get upset at me since I don’t venerate Mary like they do and go along with all her titles. So a sore spot for me, and I over reacted, so my apology.
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ChrisRedfield47
Guest
Concerning the bible, It is my understanding that there were several councils beginning the year 350-380 (these were councils of the Catholic Church) which tried to compile the bible. However there was not an official decision, not until the year 382, council of Rome. It should be noted that there were 300 different books/epistles/writings which were put on the table so to speak, which had to be determined if they were going to be in the bible or not. It is said, there were over 50 different versions of the gospels. Some books like revelation were rejected the first 200 years of Christianity. Other, Like the Epistle of Clement (4th Pope) or the Shepherd of Hermas were so accepted, that they were even read in Mass. But in the year 382, the Damasus list was proclaimed. Its called “Damusus” list or “Damasine” in honor of Pope Damasus I. This is a list, of the 73 books that all Catholic Bibles have Today. It also includes the same 27 books of the New testament, that all Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox have. The council went as follows:
“It is likewise decreed: Now, indeed, we must treat of the divine Scriptures: what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she must shun. The list of the Old Testament begins: Genesis, one book; Exodus, one book: Leviticus, one book;Numbers, one book; Deuteronomy, one book; Jesus Nave, one book; of Judges, one book; Ruth, one book; of Kings, four books [First and Second Books of Kings, Third and Fourth Books of Kings]; Paralipomenon, two books; One Hundred and Fifty Psalms, one book; of Solomon, three books: Proverbs, one book; Ecclesiastes, one book; Canticle of Canticles, one book; likewise, Wisdom, one book; Ecclesiasticus (Sirach), one book;”
“Likewise, the list of the Prophets: Isaiah, one book; Jeremias, one book; along with Cinoth, that is, his Lamentations; Ezechiel, one book; Daniel, one book; Osee, one book; Amos, one book; Micheas, one book; Joel, one book; Abdias, one book; Jonas, one book; Nahum, one book; Habacuc, one book; Sophonias, one book; Aggeus, one book; Zacharias, one book; Malachias, one book.”
“Likewise, the list of histories: Job, one book; Tobias, one book; Esdras, two books; Esther, one book; Judith, one book; of Maccabees, two books.”
“Likewise, the list of the Scriptures of the New and Eternal Testament, which the holy and Catholic Church receives: of the Gospels, one book according to Matthew, one book according to Mark, one book according to Luke, one book according to John. The Epistles of the Apostle Paul, fourteen in number: one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians [First Epistle to the Corinthians and Second Epistle to the Corinthians], one to the Ephesians, two to the Thessalonians [First Epistle to the Thessalonians and Second Epistle to the Thessalonians], one to the Galatians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to Timothy [First Epistle to Timothy and Second Epistle to Timothy], one to Titus, one to Philemon, one to the Hebrews.”
“Likewise, one book of the Apocalypse of John. And the Acts of the Apostles, one book.”
“Likewise, the canonical Epistles, seven in number: of the Apostle Peter, two Epistles [First Epistle of Peter and Second Epistle of Peter]; of the Apostle James, one Epistle; of the Apostle John, one Epistle; of the other John, a Presbyter, two Epistles [Second Epistle of John and Third Epistle of John]; of the Apostle Jude the Zealot, one Epistle. Thus concludes the canon of the New Testament.”
Likewise it is decreed: After the announcement of all of these prophetic and evangelic or as well as apostolic writings which we have listed above as Scriptures, on which, by the grace of God, the Catholic Church is founded, we have considered that it ought to be announced that although all the Catholic Churches spread abroad through the world comprise but one bridal chamber of Christ, nevertheless, the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other Churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: “You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you shall have bound on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall have loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (Decree of Pope Damasus [A.D. 382]).
-Council of Rome
The books on this list make up the Roman Catholic Bible. This exact list is confirmed at the following councils: Hippo 393 AD, Carthage 397 AD, Carthage 419 AD, Florence 1442, and Trent 1546.
It should be noted that many apocrypha were left out. Examples:
“It is likewise decreed: Now, indeed, we must treat of the divine Scriptures: what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she must shun. The list of the Old Testament begins: Genesis, one book; Exodus, one book: Leviticus, one book;Numbers, one book; Deuteronomy, one book; Jesus Nave, one book; of Judges, one book; Ruth, one book; of Kings, four books [First and Second Books of Kings, Third and Fourth Books of Kings]; Paralipomenon, two books; One Hundred and Fifty Psalms, one book; of Solomon, three books: Proverbs, one book; Ecclesiastes, one book; Canticle of Canticles, one book; likewise, Wisdom, one book; Ecclesiasticus (Sirach), one book;”
“Likewise, the list of the Prophets: Isaiah, one book; Jeremias, one book; along with Cinoth, that is, his Lamentations; Ezechiel, one book; Daniel, one book; Osee, one book; Amos, one book; Micheas, one book; Joel, one book; Abdias, one book; Jonas, one book; Nahum, one book; Habacuc, one book; Sophonias, one book; Aggeus, one book; Zacharias, one book; Malachias, one book.”
“Likewise, the list of histories: Job, one book; Tobias, one book; Esdras, two books; Esther, one book; Judith, one book; of Maccabees, two books.”
“Likewise, the list of the Scriptures of the New and Eternal Testament, which the holy and Catholic Church receives: of the Gospels, one book according to Matthew, one book according to Mark, one book according to Luke, one book according to John. The Epistles of the Apostle Paul, fourteen in number: one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians [First Epistle to the Corinthians and Second Epistle to the Corinthians], one to the Ephesians, two to the Thessalonians [First Epistle to the Thessalonians and Second Epistle to the Thessalonians], one to the Galatians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to Timothy [First Epistle to Timothy and Second Epistle to Timothy], one to Titus, one to Philemon, one to the Hebrews.”
“Likewise, one book of the Apocalypse of John. And the Acts of the Apostles, one book.”
“Likewise, the canonical Epistles, seven in number: of the Apostle Peter, two Epistles [First Epistle of Peter and Second Epistle of Peter]; of the Apostle James, one Epistle; of the Apostle John, one Epistle; of the other John, a Presbyter, two Epistles [Second Epistle of John and Third Epistle of John]; of the Apostle Jude the Zealot, one Epistle. Thus concludes the canon of the New Testament.”
Likewise it is decreed: After the announcement of all of these prophetic and evangelic or as well as apostolic writings which we have listed above as Scriptures, on which, by the grace of God, the Catholic Church is founded, we have considered that it ought to be announced that although all the Catholic Churches spread abroad through the world comprise but one bridal chamber of Christ, nevertheless, the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other Churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: “You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you shall have bound on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall have loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (Decree of Pope Damasus [A.D. 382]).
-Council of Rome
The books on this list make up the Roman Catholic Bible. This exact list is confirmed at the following councils: Hippo 393 AD, Carthage 397 AD, Carthage 419 AD, Florence 1442, and Trent 1546.
It should be noted that many apocrypha were left out. Examples:
- Apocalypse of Peter
- Protoevangelium of James
- Acts of Paul and Thecla
- Gospel of Peter
- The Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs
- Acts of Peter and Paul
- Gospel of Thomas
- Acts of Thomas
- Acts of Thaddaeus
- Acts of Andrew
- Acts of Xanthippe and Polyxena
- Acts of John
- Acts of Philip
- Apocalypse of Paul
- Gospel of Nicodemus
- The Doctrine of Addai – This is a Syriac version of the earlier Acts of Thaddaeus
- History of Joseph the Carpenter
- Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew
- Acts of Barnabas
- Acts of Bartholomew
- Acts and Martyrdom of St. Matthew the Apostle
- Arabic Gospel of the Infancy of the Saviour
- Avenging of the Saviour
- Apocalypse of John
- Apocalypse of Moses
- Apocalypse of Esdras
- Testament of Abraham
- Narrative of Zosimus
- Gospel of the Nativity of Mary
- Narrative of Joseph of Arimathea
- Report of Pontius Pilate
- Letter of Pontius Pilate
- Giving Up of Pontius Pilate
- Death of Pilate
- Apocalypse of the Virgin
- Apocalypse of Sedrach
- Acts of Andrew and Matthias
- Acts of Peter and Andrew
- Consummation of Thomas the Apostle
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ChrisRedfield47
Guest
There’s plenty more of these, and if you read them, you would probably not notice the difference between these and the canonical ones in most cases.
Here are 3 videos which explain all that I have posted:
youtube.com/watch?v=PjvXbotd9Lw
youtube.com/watch?v=9aozoXFdr80
youtube.com/watch?v=_JInrWhks9
Here are 3 videos which explain all that I have posted:
youtube.com/watch?v=PjvXbotd9Lw
youtube.com/watch?v=9aozoXFdr80
youtube.com/watch?v=_JInrWhks9
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Luvtosew
Guest
Thank you very much for the last two posts, really appreciated it.
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Nicea325
Guest
God wanted us to know the Bible and that is it? Ah no! God founded His Church and that is what is on the planet earth,not just the Bible.
I know the history of the canon and nothing you provided confirms the NT was CLOSED by 170 A.D as you stated. The fact those church fathers mentioned specific books does not conclude it was closed. They simply provided a list of books,but none of them confirm the NT being closed. How could be closed as you believe when there existed scores of other books in circulation and were used as scripture.You are confusing "list’ with the term “closed” or “fixed” which was never once confirmed by 170 A.D.
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Luvtosew
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Your right List an not closed, the thing is they had the writings, they didn’t have to wonder what happened, they had the written accounts. Yes Jesus started his Church , which
includes all children in Christ.
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Nicea325
Guest
By all means, do not get me wrong. I love scripture and read it everyday at lunch and at night. I even attend a Bible class at my parish and we discuss it in-depth. I am sorry,but the notion and belief that the early Christians only followed the Bible-only is historically inaccurate and totally false. Yes they had writings and many common ones,but at the same time,many others were in circulation which later did not make the final cut into the NT canon. One has to be very careful not to confuse "lists’ with “fixed” or “closed” because the last two terms were made official at councils.
Peace
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Luvtosew
Guest
I do believe it would of been better if they had followed Scripture more closely , but your right they didn’t and they let a lot of roman influence into the RCC, and some of that was not good, as we are aware at that time also there were many different religions going on in Rome and Greece, and Africa, and all over. So that is why its best to match up everything to the Bible or one can get off tract very easy, as well you can see it in all the different Church groups popping up everywhere, very sacrey. Run on sentence.
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Nicea325
Guest
Follow scripture more closely? My friend do you understand the history of the Bible, especially the NT? The early Christians for many years simply heard the Word of God, they did not own and read their own personal Bibles as we do today. Roman influence into the RCC? Name a Roman “influence” which affected doctrine or dogma? Match everything up to the Bible? On the contrary, everything in the Bible needed to match up with the teachings of the NT church, because the NT church existed before the one volume book we call the Bible (OT/NT). Remember, the Bible is about the NT church and it came from the NT church, not vice versa.I do believe it would of been better if they had followed Scripture more closely , but your right they didn’t and they let a lot of roman influence into the RCC, and some of that was not good, as we are aware at that time also there were many different religions going on in Rome and Greece, and Africa, and all over. So that is why its best to match up everything to the Bible or one can get off tract very easy, as well you can see it in all the different Church groups popping up everywhere, very sacrey. Run on sentence.
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Luvtosew
Guest
Nicea, Christianity became the legal religion in Rome and the top people in the Church had the books and writings, it may not of been bounded as the Bible, but they had the scriptures to follow. . Did the overseers and presbys have access, I don’t know. I’ve read that Priests didn’t read the Bible for many years even during training. Its makes for interesting reading if one goes below the surface.to really see how things were back then,
you said everything in the Bible needed to match up with the teachings of the NT Church,
how in the heck could that be since the bible was wrote by 100AD. I think you got that backwards.
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Nicea325
Guest
Luv, Christianity did not become the legal religion until 397 by Eastern Roman Emperor named Theodosius I. Secondly, you should feel lucky and honored Christians were no longer persecuted by the Roman state in stead of knocking it. Yes they had the scriptures…but WHO had them? THE CHURCH…not the lay folks. How could they only follow Scripture when most of it was still being penned and not in great circulation? Remember scripture was hand written and it was not in mass production. The early Christians followed from what they heard from the Apostles and church leaders who LATER penned it down. The Apostles were not going around teaching only scripture was to be used. Do you believe scripture was written down as a means to replace oral teachings and the church? Do believe the early Christians said: okay scripture is written,we no longer anything but our Bibles? Seriously? You read priests did not read the Bible? Cite the source stating such a position and I hope this source has ancient sources backing it up?Nicea, Christianity became the legal religion in Rome and the top people in the Church had the books and writings, it may not of been bounded as the Bible, but they had the scriptures to follow. . Did the overseers and presbys have access, I don’t know. I’ve read that Priests didn’t read the Bible for many years even during training. Its makes for interesting reading if one goes below the surface.to really see how things were back then, you said everything in the Bible needed to match up with the teachings of the NT Church, how in the heck could that be since the bible was wrote by 100AD. I think you got that backwards.
Oh luv…what did Jesus found? His Church or the Bible? Show me one word in the NT stating the NT writings preceded Christ Church? The Apostles were already teaching before anyone decided to write a word down. Scripture was being written AFTER Christ founded His Church and the fact most scripture may have been written by 100 AD. does not mean the Bible has precedence over the Church. You have it backwards.how in the heck could that be since the bible was wrote by 100AD. I think you got that backwards.
Luv, please show me where Roman influence affected Catholic doctrine and dogma?
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PRmerger
Guest
No, Luv. I’d like to know that answer, too.Follow the conversation.
Who is “they”?
Is it MEN? Catholic MEN? Catholic bishops who discerned for you that 3 John was inspired? Yes, or no?
If yes, then you acknowledge the authority of the Church in discerning a very important concept for you.
If no, then you’ll have to answer who “they” are.
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Nicea325
Guest
PRmerger:
I think our friend luv is not very knowledgable in certain areas. It is okay because I believe one of our spiritual works of mercy is to educate the ignorant?
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1voice
Guest
You can find it real easy on Google maps.Just punch in zip code 97016. Nice little place. It is about 40 miles west of Portland just off rte 26 (Sunset Hwy.) East of the costal rangeI don’t know where Banks is but if I see you on the 101 I’ll wave!
…about 60 miles from Tillamook/ Netarts/ the coast.
I bought some beef ribs at the barbq in the safeway parking lot after my appointment. … allll bones and no meat… doggone it. I was hungry. Good thing I had some sushi/ tempura … left over from yesterday.
So you live in OR?
What part of 101 do you travel? Used to go to Cannon Beach once in a while but now we always go to Cape Kiwanda (The Pelican Pub for strong coffee and breakfast … and awesome microbrews later in the day) and Cape Lookout … Much better scenery and lots of freezing cold water and warm, fond memories of camping at the coast in the summers with my daughter. When we wanted to swim in warm water we went to Sand Lake… a tidal pool between Tillamook and the Cape
Driving Back toPortland … the view of Mt St Helens as a backdrop for the city was breath taking today… dark water color gray clouds… a backdrop for the gleaming, sunset white/ snow covered volcano with steam billowing from the crater… I have lived here a long time and never seen the conditions so perfect. As my daughter said when she was 3 yrs old … God made this world beautiful.
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Luvtosew
Guest
In 313, Constantine and Licinius issued the Edict of Milan legalizing Christian worship. The emperor became a great patron of the Church and set a precedent for the position of the Christian emperor within the Church and the notion of orthodoxy, Christendom, and ecumenical councils that would be followed for centuries as the State church of the Roman Empire. He is revered as a saint in the Eastern Orthodox Church and Oriental Orthodox Church for his example as a “Christian monarch.”
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Luvtosew
Guest
Is this not like talking derogatory about someone in front of everyone, when everyone is aware of who your referring to,
I think its called gossip.
Don’t give me your siritual works of mercy, don’t want them.
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Luvtosew
Guest
Romes influrence on Christianity: A sample
From the 2nd century onward, the Church Fathers began to condemn the diverse religions practiced throughout the Empire collectively as “pagan.”[3] When the Roman Emperor Constantine I converted to Christianity in the 4th century, he launched the era of Christian hegemony. Despite a short-lived attempt by the Emperor Julian to revive and preserve traditional and Hellenistic religion and to affirm the special status of Judaism, in 391 under Theodosius I Christianity became the official state religion of Rome, to the exclusion of all others. Pleas for religious tolerance from traditionalists such as the senator Symmachus (d. 402) were rejected, and Christian monotheism became a feature of Imperial domination. Other religions were gradually transformed, absorbed or strictly suppressed. Many forms of traditional religious practice, particularly festivals and games (ludi), which might be divorced from theological implications, retained their vitality through the 4th and 5th centuries. Rome’s religious hierarchy and many aspects of ritual influenced Christian forms, and many pre-Christian beliefs and practices survived in Christian festivals and local traditions.
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Luvtosew
Guest
Of course it was men, with the inspiration from God.
Define Catholic, it mean universal church , so yes christian men who had converted to Christianity.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Ah so the Bible didn’t fall out of the sky, and you are one Planet in Christ. As he so clearly stated…One Church. Now you may not like everything on Gods Green Earth about His Church, and your are certainly welcome to go listen elsewhere. However there is One God, One Heaven and One Church. And you are in it, and part of this is you are under its big beautiful tent here at CAF which btw is covered by Marys Mantle…Worldwide through the Holy Spirit.
Now, has it been a terrible experience conversing here? We haven’t corrupted your morals. dragged anyone into sin. We might have had a little fun along the way chatting. Yet, in fact we are showing you the path Christ Jesus actually took and left when He spoke those words to the Apostles, the One Truth. Obviously not the same “full” truth being preached in many areas today.
They spread this Truth and it became documented in many ways and canons. There also was no division in Chapters in Revelation so 11 and 12 would have been one continued verse. The Apostles contemplated what they witnessed and all understood the magnitude of these events they were so priviledged to become an everlasting part of. They all realized the Mother of Gods role. Which the Apostle John so obviously did, as he was the Apostle who placed his head on Christs chest and heard the beat of His Sacred Heart. There he stood at the Cross. All the Apostle Johns students clearly reaffirmed St Johns message.
“Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church”
Mary’s role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. “This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death”
It is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion.
Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the Cross.
There She Stood, in keeping with the Divine plan,
Enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, joining herself with his sacrifice in her mother’s heart,
Lovingly consenting to …“immolation of this victim”.
Born of her: to be given, by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross, as a mother to his disciple, with these words…
“Woman, behold your son.”
After her Son’s Ascension, Mary aided the beginnings of the Church by her prayers. In her association with the apostles and several women, we also see Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation.
Pope Paul VI
There is “no” Apostolic Church on Earth which does not clearly understand the Intercession of The Mother of God and Her role in the church and in history.
Historical Fact undisputed.
Now, has it been a terrible experience conversing here? We haven’t corrupted your morals. dragged anyone into sin. We might have had a little fun along the way chatting. Yet, in fact we are showing you the path Christ Jesus actually took and left when He spoke those words to the Apostles, the One Truth. Obviously not the same “full” truth being preached in many areas today.
They spread this Truth and it became documented in many ways and canons. There also was no division in Chapters in Revelation so 11 and 12 would have been one continued verse. The Apostles contemplated what they witnessed and all understood the magnitude of these events they were so priviledged to become an everlasting part of. They all realized the Mother of Gods role. Which the Apostle John so obviously did, as he was the Apostle who placed his head on Christs chest and heard the beat of His Sacred Heart. There he stood at the Cross. All the Apostle Johns students clearly reaffirmed St Johns message.
“Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church”
Mary’s role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. “This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death”
It is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion.
Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the Cross.
There She Stood, in keeping with the Divine plan,
Enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, joining herself with his sacrifice in her mother’s heart,
Lovingly consenting to …“immolation of this victim”.
Born of her: to be given, by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross, as a mother to his disciple, with these words…
“Woman, behold your son.”
After her Son’s Ascension, Mary aided the beginnings of the Church by her prayers. In her association with the apostles and several women, we also see Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation.
Pope Paul VI
There is “no” Apostolic Church on Earth which does not clearly understand the Intercession of The Mother of God and Her role in the church and in history.
Historical Fact undisputed.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
‘Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, Look, he is destined for the fall and rise of many in Israel, destined to be a sign that is opposed–and a sword will pierce your soul too–so that the secret thoughts of many may be laid bare.’ Luke 2:22-35
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