The Ark of the Covenant in the New Testament

[PRmerger]

Of course it was men, with the inspiration from God.

Excellent! So when you stated that you dismiss some of the teachings of the CC regarding the BVM because they come MEN, then you now realize that all of the things you believe about Christ actually come from MEN, right? Men who were inspired by the Holy Spirit, yes?

So it’s wrong to say you don’t believe in certain things about the BVM because they come from MEN, but also believe in certain things (like 3 John being inspired) because that, too, comes from MEN.

yes this is the way I see things, and yes I realize that many RC beliefs come not from Scripture or Christ, but from men.

 

[PRmerger]

Define Catholic, it mean universal church , so yes christian men who had converted to Christianity.

By “Catholic”, as it applies in our discussion regarding discerning the canon of Scripture, I mean the One Church that was founded by Christ at Pentecost.

There was no other Church around.

It was this Christian church that had BISHOPS, celebrated the Liturgy, prayed to Mary, prayed for the dead, asked for the intercession of the saints, baptized infants, believed in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist…

and they professed this for 1500 years, even when that became the time that people formally voiced their objections to certain Christian doctrines that they found unpalatable.

 

[Luvtosew]

Excellent! So when you stated that you dismiss some of the teachings of the CC regarding the BVM because they come MEN, then you now realize that all of the things you believe about Christ actually come from MEN, right? Men who were inspired by the Holy Spirit, yes?

So it’s wrong to say you don’t believe in certain things about the BVM because they come from MEN, but also believe in certain things (like 3 John being inspired) because that, too, comes from MEN.

No, I believe the books of the Bible were inspired by God himself and penned by men, and apparently the men of the Church also believed them to be the inspired books.

Anything that comes after the inspired books of the Bible, which apparently was decided upon, should line up to the Bible, and the assumptions about the BVM do not.

God decided what would be in the Bible not men, but he used men.

 

[PRmerger]

God decided what would be in the Bible not men, but he used men.

Of course.

And, therefore, you can see how God could (and does) use men to declare to His Body, the Church, teachings on the BVM.

You cannot dismiss the teachings on the BVM, because they were proclaimed to you by men, without dismissing that 3 John is inspired, because this was proclaimed to you also by men.

That the Holy Spirit directed these men is, of course, understood in both cases.

 

[Luvtosew]

Of course.

And, therefore, you can see how God could (and does) use men to declare to His Body, the Church, teachings on the BVM.

You cannot dismiss the teachings on the BVM, because they were proclaimed to you by men, without dismissing that 3 John is inspired, because this was proclaimed to you also by men.

That the Holy Spirit directed these men is, of course, understood in both cases.

I’m sorry but if it can’t be backed up by the Bible , then it may not be from the HS but from men, that is why so many different strange beliefs come from. Everything needs to be backed up from Scripture, that is why God gave us Scripture and directed men into what should be in his Book.

 

[PRmerger]

No, I believe the books of the Bible were inspired by God himself and penned by men, and apparently the men of the Church also believed them to be the inspired books.

Yup.

Anything that comes **after **the inspired books of the Bible, which apparently was decided upon, should line up to the Bible, and the assumptions about the BVM do not

.
What teachings do you believe on the BVM do not “line up to the Bible”?

Also, what verse in Scripture says that “anything that comes after the inspired books of the Bible” should be rejected?

You do know that the inspired writings were written in the first decades (up to 40-70 AD) but that the canon of Scripture came AFTER the inspired books, right? Some 300-400 years later!

So by your very own paradigm you should be rejecting the decision that 3 John is inspired!

 

[PRmerger]

I’m sorry but if it can’t be backed up by the Bible , then it may not be from the HS but from men, that is why so many different strange beliefs come from. Everything needs to be backed up from Scripture, that is why God gave us Scripture and directed men into what should be in his Book.

And there is NOTHING in Catholic teaching that can’t be “backed up by the Bible.”

 

[Luvtosew]

And there is NOTHING in Catholic teaching that can’t be “backed up by the Bible.”

Show me the chapter and verse on the assumption of Mary. and on:
Mary is the new Eve.
is the Mother of the Church.
it states Mary is the Queen of Heaven
and Ark of the Covenat.

 

[Miriam1947]

Is this not like talking derogatory about someone in front of everyone, when everyone is aware of who your referring to,

I think its called gossip.

Don’t give me your siritual works of mercy, don’t want them.

I think you are confusing ignorant with stupid.

Ignorant means lack of knowledge, it has nothing to do with intelligence.

 

[PRmerger]

Show me the chapter and verse on the assumption of Mary. and on:
Mary is the new Eve.
is the Mother of the Church.
it states Mary is the Queen of Heaven
and Ark of the Covenat.

II. Mary - the Immaculate Ark of the New Covenant

Exodus 25:11-21 - the ark of the Old Covenant was made of the purest gold for God’s Word. Mary is the ark of the New Covenant and is the purest vessel for the Word of God made flesh.

2 Sam. 6:7 - the Ark is so holy and pure that when Uzzah touched it, the Lord slew him. This shows us that the Ark is undefiled. Mary the Ark of the New Covenant is even more immaculate and undefiled, spared by God from original sin so that she could bear His eternal Word in her womb.

1 Chron. 13:9-10 - this is another account of Uzzah and the Ark. For God to dwell within Mary the Ark, Mary had to be conceived without sin. For Protestants to argue otherwise would be to say that God would let the finger of Satan touch His Son made flesh. This is incomprehensible.

1 Chron. 15 and 16 - these verses show the awesome reverence the Jews had for the Ark - veneration, vestments, songs, harps, lyres, cymbals, trumpets.

Luke 1:39 / 2 Sam. 6:2 - Luke’s conspicuous comparison’s between Mary and the Ark described by Samuel underscores the reality of Mary as the undefiled and immaculate Ark of the New Covenant. In these verses, Mary (the Ark) arose and went / David arose and went to the Ark. There is a clear parallel between the Ark of the Old and the Ark of the New Covenant.

Luke 1:41 / 2 Sam. 6:16 - John the Baptist / King David leap for joy before Mary / Ark. So should we leap for joy before Mary the immaculate Ark of the Word made flesh.

Luke 1:43 / 2 Sam. 6:9 - How can the Mother / Ark of the Lord come to me? It is a holy privilege. Our Mother wants to come to us and lead us to Jesus.

Luke 1:56 / 2 Sam. 6:11 and 1 Chron. 13:14 - Mary / the Ark remained in the house for about three months.

Rev 11:19 - at this point in history, the Ark of the Old Covenant was not seen for six centuries (see 2 Macc. 2:7), and now it is finally seen in heaven. The Jewish people would have been absolutely amazed at this. However, John immediately passes over this fact and describes the “woman” clothed with the sun in Rev. 12:1. John is emphasizing that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant and who, like the Old ark, is now worthy of veneration and praise. Also remember that Rev. 11:19 and Rev. 12:1 are tied together because there was no chapter and verse at the time these texts were written.

Rev 12:1 - the “woman” that John is describing is Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. Just as the moon reflects the light of the sun, so Mary, with the moon under her feet, reflects the glory of the Sun of Justice, Jesus Christ.

Rev. 12:17 - this verse tells us that Mary’s offspring are those who keep God’s commandments and bear testimony to Jesus. This demonstrates, as Catholics have always believed, that Mary is the Mother of all Christians.

Rev. 12:2 - Some Protestants argue that, because the woman had birth pangs, she was a woman with sin. However, Revelation is apocalyptic literature unique to the 1st century. It contains varied symbolism and multiple meanings of the woman (Mary, the Church and Israel). The birth pangs describe both the birth of the Church and Mary’s offspring being formed in Christ. Mary had no birth pangs in delivering her only Son Jesus.

Isaiah 66:7 - for example, we see Isaiah prophesying that before she (Mary) was in labor she gave birth; before her pain came upon her she was delivered of a son (Jesus). This is a Marian prophecy of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.

Gal 4:19 - Paul also describes his pain as birth pangs in forming the disciples in Christ. Birth pangs describe formation in Christ.

Rom. 8:22 - also, Paul says the whole creation has been groaning in travail before the coming of Christ. We are all undergoing birth pangs because we are being reborn into Jesus Christ.

Jer. 13:21 - Jeremiah describes the birth pangs of Israel, like a woman in travail. Birth pangs are usually used metaphorically in the Scriptures.

Hos. 13:12-13 - Ephraim is also described as travailing in childbirth for his sins. Again, birth pangs are used metaphorically.

Micah 4:9-10 - Micah also describes Jerusalem as being seized by birth pangs like a woman in travail.

Rev. 12:13-16 - in these verses, we see that the devil still seeks to destroy the woman even after the Savior is born. This proves Mary is a danger to satan, even after the birth of Christ. This is because God has given her the power to intercede for us, and we should invoke her assistance in our spiritual lives.

cont’d

 

[PRmerger]

Mary is our Mother and Queen of the New Davidic Kingdom

John 19:26 - Jesus makes Mary the Mother of us all as He dies on the Cross by saying “behold your mother.” Jesus did not say “John, behold your mother” because he gave Mary to all of us, his beloved disciples. All the words that Jesus spoke on Cross had a divine purpose. Jesus was not just telling John to take care of his mother.

Rev. 12:17 - this verse proves the meaning of John 19:26. The “woman’s” (Mary’s) offspring are those who follow Jesus. She is our Mother and we are her offspring in Jesus Christ. The master plan of God’s covenant love for us is family. But we cannot be a complete family with the Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Christ without the Motherhood of Mary.

John 2:3 - this is a very signifcant verse in Scripture. As our mother, Mary tells all of us to do whatever Jesus tells us. Further, Mary’s intercession at the marriage feast in Cana triggers Jesus’ ministry and a foreshadowing of the Eucharistic celebration of the Lamb. This celebration unites all believers into one famiy through the marriage of divinity and humanity.

John 2:7 - Jesus allows His mother to intercede for the people on His behalf, and responds to His mother’s request by ordering the servants to fill the jars with water.

Psalm 45:9 - the psalmist teaches that the Queen stands at the right hand of God. The role of the Queen is important in God’s kingdom. Mary the Queen of heaven is at the right hand of the Son of God.

1 Kings 2:17, 20 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the King does not refuse his mother. Jesus is the new Davidic King, and He does not refuse the requests of his mother Mary, the Queen.

1 Kings 2:18 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the Queen intercedes on behalf of the King’s followers. She is the Queen Mother (or “Gebirah”). Mary is our eternal Gebirah.

1 Kings 2:19 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom the King bows down to his mother and she sits at his right hand. We, as children of the New Covenant, should imitate our King and pay the same homage to Mary our Mother. By honoring Mary, we honor our King, Jesus Christ.

1 Kings 15:13 - the Queen Mother is a powerful position in Israel’s royal monarchy. Here the Queen is removed from office. But now, the Davidic kingdom is perfected by Jesus, and our Mother Mary is forever at His right hand.

2 Chron. 22:10 - here Queen Mother Athalia destroys the royal family of Judah after she sees her son, King Ahaziah, dead. The Queen mother plays a significant role in the kingdom.

Neh. 2:6 - the Queen Mother sits beside the King. She is the primary intercessor before the King.
source: scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html#the_bvm-II

 

[PRmerger]

Show me the chapter and verse on the assumption of Mary. and on:
Mary is the new Eve.
is the Mother of the Church.
it states Mary is the Queen of Heaven
and Ark of the Covenat.

Now, your turn, Luv.

Show me the chapter and verse on where it says that everything we believe has to be found in the pages of the Bible.

I did what you asked.

Now, you show where your paradigm comes from the Bible.

Otherwise, you must admit that you have been greatly deceived into following a man-made tradition.

 

[Luvtosew]

I think you are confusing ignorant with stupid.

Ignorant means lack of knowledge, it has nothing to do with intelligence.

So that would make it ok to talk about a person on a public message forum to a third party declaring ingnorace of that person,

because that person does not hold the point of view of the other person? that person is ignorant now?

And who is to decide who is ignorant, I know people who do not share my point of view, it does not mean they are ignorant of the facts to why I share that point of view, actually they may know something I don’t know, and I respect others points of view.

 

[Luvtosew]

II. Mary - the Immaculate Ark of the New Covenant

Exodus 25:11-21 - the ark of the Old Covenant was made of the purest gold for God’s Word. Mary is the ark of the New Covenant and is the purest vessel for the Word of God made flesh

Yes John leaped before Mary but for because of the presence of Jesus.

Luke 1:43 / 2 Sam. 6:9 - How can the Mother / Ark of the Lord come to me? It is a holy privilege. Our Mother wants to come to us and lead us to Jesus.

whatever leads people to Christ is very good, but no where does it state Mary is an Ark.

Luke 1:56 / 2 Sam. 6:11 and 1 Chron. 13:14 - Mary / the Ark remained in the house for about three months.

Assuming Mary is the Ark, which hasn’t been shown yet in any verse so far.

Rev 11:19 - at this point in history, the Ark of the Old Covenant was not seen for six centuries (see 2 Macc. 2:7), and now it is finally seen in heaven. The Jewish people would have been absolutely amazed at this. However, John immediately passes over this fact and describes the “woman” clothed with the sun in Rev. 12:1. John is emphasizing that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant and who, like the Old ark, is now worthy of veneration and praise. Also remember that Rev. 11:19 and Rev. 12:1 are tied together because there was no chapter and verse at the time these texts were written

.

Oh so the Ark wasn’t Mary then as no one seen the Ark for centuries, and yes it is in heaven, the Ark of the Covenat was a copy of the one in heaven, see Hebrews. The real Ark never left heaven.

Rev 12:1 - the “woman” that John is describing is Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. Just as the moon reflects the light of the sun, so Mary, with the moon under her feet, reflects the glory of the Sun of Justice, Jesus Christ.

The woman is Israel and the seven tribes. church of believers , rebirth of Jerusalem

Rev. 12:17 - this verse tells us that Mary’s offspring are those who keep God’s commandments and bear testimony to Jesus. This demonstrates, as Catholics have always believed, that Mary is the Mother of all Christians.

Christ’s Church (body of believers)

Rev. 12:2 - Some Protestants argue that, because the woman had birth pangs, she was a woman with sin. However, Revelation is apocalyptic literature unique to the 1st century. It contains varied **symbolism **

and multiple meanings of the woman (Mary, the Church and Israel). The birth pangs describe both the birth of the Church and Mary’s offspring being formed in Christ. Mary had no birth pangs in delivering her only Son Jesus

Multiple meanings, so I guess we should pick one.

Isaiah 66:7 - for example, we see Isaiah prophesying that before she (Mary) was in labor she gave birth; before her pain came upon her she was delivered of a son (Jesus). This is a Marian prophecy of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.

Yes I"m aware of Isaiah saying this, she has no pain upon delivering Jesus.

Gal 4:19 - Paul also describes his pain as birth pangs in forming the disciples in Christ. Birth pangs describe formation in Christ.

Yes he wanted to give new birth and convert people to Christ, his mission.

Rom. 8:22 - also, Paul says the whole creation has been groaning in travail before the coming of Christ. We are all undergoing birth pangs because we are being reborn into Jesus Christ.

No problem, but nothing once again to do with Mary.

Jer. 13:21 - Jeremiah describes the birth pangs of Israel, like a woman in travail. Birth pangs are usually used metaphorically in the Scriptures.

Hos. 13:12-13 - Ephraim is also described as travailing in childbirth for his sins. Again, birth pangs are used metaphorically.

Micah 4:9-10 - Micah also describes Jerusalem as being seized by birth pangs like a woman in travail

.

No problem, birth pain is commonly used today also.

Rev. 12:13-16

Not referring to Mary, but to the Church of believers in Christ.All believers are a danger to Satan, and no where does it state God gave any power to Mary.

cont’d

[/QUOTE]

 

[Luvtosew]

Mary is our Mother and Queen of the New Davidic Kingdom

John 19:26 - Jesus makes Mary the Mother of us all as He dies on the Cross by saying “behold your mother.” Jesus did not say “John, behold your mother” because he gave Mary to all of us, his beloved disciples. All the words that Jesus spoke on Cross had a divine purpose. Jesus was not just telling John to take care of his mother.

Rev. 12:17 - this verse proves the meaning of John 19:26. The “woman’s” (Mary’s) offspring are those who follow Jesus. She is our Mother and we are her offspring in Jesus Christ. The master plan of God’s covenant love for us is family. But we cannot be a complete family with the Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Christ without the Motherhood of Mary.

John 2:3 - this is a very signifcant verse in Scripture. As our mother, Mary tells all of us to do whatever Jesus tells us. Further, Mary’s intercession at the marriage feast in Cana triggers Jesus’ ministry and a foreshadowing of the Eucharistic celebration of the Lamb. This celebration unites all believers into one famiy through the marriage of divinity and humanity.

John 2:7 - Jesus allows His mother to intercede for the people on His behalf, and responds to His mother’s request by ordering the servants to fill the jars with water.

Psalm 45:9 - the psalmist teaches that the Queen stands at the right hand of God. The role of the Queen is important in God’s kingdom. Mary the Queen of heaven is at the right hand of the Son of God.

1 Kings 2:17, 20 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the King does not refuse his mother. Jesus is the new Davidic King, and He does not refuse the requests of his mother Mary, the Queen.

1 Kings 2:18 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the Queen intercedes on behalf of the King’s followers. She is the Queen Mother (or “Gebirah”). Mary is our eternal Gebirah.

1 Kings 2:19 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom the King bows down to his mother and she sits at his right hand. We, as children of the New Covenant, should imitate our King and pay the same homage to Mary our Mother. By honoring Mary, we honor our King, Jesus Christ.

1 Kings 15:13 - the Queen Mother is a powerful position in Israel’s royal monarchy. Here the Queen is removed from office. But now, the Davidic kingdom is perfected by Jesus, and our Mother Mary is forever at His right hand.

2 Chron. 22:10 - here Queen Mother Athalia destroys the royal family of Judah after she sees her son, King Ahaziah, dead. The Queen mother plays a significant role in the kingdom.

Neh. 2:6 - the Queen Mother sits beside the King. She is the primary intercessor before the King.
source: scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html#the_bvm-II

I’m not going to reply to these verses as its all based on interpretation and assumptions. I have not seen one verse to state Mary is the Ark of the Covenat or the Queen of Heaven or a Mediator.

 

[PRmerger]

I’m not going to reply to these verses as its all based on interpretation and assumptions. I have not seen one verse to state Mary is the Ark of the Covenat or the Queen of Heaven or a Mediator.

So please apply this same hard-nosed paradigm to the Trinity.

You would be then placing yourself in the camp of Jehovah’s Witnesses and their ilk, who, despite being shown verse after verse about Jesus and the Trinity, respond “I have not seen one verse to state that Jesus is God” or “I have not seen one verse to state that the Trinity is in the Bible.”

 

[Luvtosew]

So please apply this same hard-nosed paradigm to the Trinity.

You would be then placing yourself in the camp of Jehovah’s Witnesses and their ilk, who, despite being shown verse after verse about Jesus and the Trinity, respond “I have not seen one verse to state that Jesus is God” or “I have not seen one verse to state that the Trinity is in the Bible.”

Matthew 28:19

New International Version (NIV)

19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

 

[Miriam1947]

Matthew 28:19

New International Version (NIV)

19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

And if you weren’t a Christian (for instance Mormon) you would read that as three separate persons.

 

[PRmerger]

Matthew 28:19

New International Version (NIV)

19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Here’s what they say–just like you have your response to the verses about Mary:

Three names have merely been listed, and no instance of the word trinity in any bible. Obviously it came from a man made philosophy.

Jesus said himself, “The father is greater than I”

I don’t think he said equal to, did he not?

Jesus also said, “I and the Father are one” some Trinitarians also seem to cling to this as well.

Did he literally mean one? No, 'cause he would be contradicting himself from my quote above. They are one in purpose and in union with each other. He did the will of his Father Jehovah. He never did anything of his own initiative, he glorified his Father not himself.

If you want to baptize in all the nations ( Matthew 28:19 )

You need to be preaching the good news of the kingdom in all the inhabited earth as well ( Matthew 24:14 )

You can’t have one without the other source: answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20111216141740AA5BFcU.

See, Luv? Their response sounds just like yours–“it’s all man-made”.

Note: I am NOT saying that you are a JW. Only that you can offer verses to people, but if they refuse to see, they refuse to see.

 

[IggyAntiochus]

And if you weren’t a Christian (for instance Mormon) you would read that as three separate persons.

Not to be overly technical, but they are three distinct, separate Persons Just not three distinct Beings.