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PRmerger
Guest
Catholics give a hearty amen! to Romans 3.
But just so we’re clear–we don’t believe that “all” is a literal “all”.
And, quite to the point, neither do you.
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But just so we’re clear–we don’t believe that “all” is a literal “all”.
And, quite to the point, neither do you.
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1voice
Guest
The focus of my response is on this statement …Catholics give a hearty amen! to Romans 3.
But just so we’re clear–we don’t believe that “all” is a literal “all”.
And, quite to the point, neither do you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryTaylor
“All Grace flowed through Mary instantly by the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit.“Luke”. Therefore All Grace Never stopped following through Mary for Marys life was a perpetual fiat.”
I am not focused on the Catholic belief that Mary was sinless.
My focus is on the concept Gary proposes that all grace flows through Mary.
In response to his assertion I quoted …
The Bible (Douay-Rheims) …which says:
Romans:
3:24 Being justified freely by his grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus
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PRmerger
Guest
As with most Catholic answers, it’s not either/or but both/and, 1voice.
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1voice
Guest
Where, in the Bible does it clearly simply state that “all grace flows through Mary”?
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PRmerger
Guest
It’s right after the verse that says, “All that God wants us to believe is to be found only in the Bible.”
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1voice
Guest
Where does it say that a belief not found in the Bible, as you say, can contradict the Bible?It’s right after the verse that says, “All that God wants us to believe is to be found only in the Bible.”
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PRmerger
Guest
It sounds as if you’re suggesting that there are Catholic beliefs that contradict the Bible.
I can assure you that there is nary a Catholic teaching that contradicts the Sacred Scriptures.
If you’d like to persist in that assertion, I challenge you to proffer a Catholic teaching and then the Scripture verse(s) it contradicts.
M
MartinJordan
Guest
Here are some great quotes from 3rd Century on the Mary as the new Ark:
Source: catholicfidelity.com/apologetics-topics/mary/church-fathers-on-mary-as-ark-of-the-new-covenant/
MJ
Code:
“***The ark is verily the holy Virgin, gilded within and without***, who received the treasure of universal sanctification. Arise, O Lord, from the Father’s bosom, to raise up again the ruined race of our first parent” (Orat. in Deip. Annunciat. Int. Opp. S. Greg. Thaumaturg) (Blessed Virgin, p. 89). St. Gregory Thaumaturgus (c. **213-c. 270**)
“As Christ our priest was not chosen by hand of man, ***so neither was His tabernacle framed by men,*** but was ***established by the Holy Ghost; and by the power of God is that tabernacle protected, to be had in everlasting remembrance,*** Mary, God’s Virgin Mother” (S. Dionysius of Alexandria, Respons. ad Quoest. v. Pauli Samos) (Blessed Virgin, p. 81). St. Dionysius (**died 264**)MJ
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1voice
Guest
Paul specifically states that grace belongs to Jesus and specifically states that grace was given to us by Jesus before the beginning of time.
Paul states that it was Jesus’ “own purpose and grace. (and that) This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time”
2Tim 1:9
Any time anyone would say that grace comes from another source other than what God has specifically declared and clearly defined… I stand with what is made perfectly clear by God himself… Again Paul makes it perfectly clear where grace, as well as all else pertaining to our perfection comes from when he states simply and clearly who we must look to:
Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith
Heb 12:2
You can look to whomever you choose. I choose to follow the direct admonition to … fix my eyes on Jesus.
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PRmerger
Guest
This is quite Catholic of you to say, 1voice!
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PRmerger
Guest
You do know that Paul states that he offers grace, right? (Gal 6:18, Eph 1:2, Phil 1:2 etc etc etc)
In fact, Paul states that* he *saves us.
To the weak I became weak, to win over the weak.
I have become all things to all, to save at least some. 1 Corinthians 9:22
And that we (gasp!) save ourselves!
Attend to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in both tasks, for by doing so you will save both yourself and those who listen to you.–1 Timothy 4:16
Now, naturally, all Christians understand that St. Paul can only save souls through the authority of Christ and the power of God, working through St. Paul.
Similarly, when we say that Mary is a source of grace, it is only through the authority of Christ and the power of God, working through the Blessed Mother.
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1voice
Guest
Originally Posted by 1voice
Paul specifically states that grace belongs to Jesus and specifically states that grace was given to us by Jesus before the beginning of time.
Paul states that it was Jesus’ “own purpose and grace. (and that) This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time”
2Tim 1:9
Any time anyone would say that grace comes from another source other than what God has specifically declared and clearly defined… I stand with what is made perfectly clear by God himself… Again Paul makes it perfectly clear where grace, as well as all else pertaining to our perfection comes from when he states simply and clearly who we must look to:
Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith
Heb 12:2
You can look to whomever you choose. I choose to follow the direct admonition to … fix my eyes on Jesus.
Paul specifically states that grace belongs to Jesus and specifically states that grace was given to us by Jesus before the beginning of time.
Paul states that it was Jesus’ “own purpose and grace. (and that) This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time”
2Tim 1:9
Any time anyone would say that grace comes from another source other than what God has specifically declared and clearly defined… I stand with what is made perfectly clear by God himself… Again Paul makes it perfectly clear where grace, as well as all else pertaining to our perfection comes from when he states simply and clearly who we must look to:
Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith
Heb 12:2
You can look to whomever you choose. I choose to follow the direct admonition to … fix my eyes on Jesus.
Hey, I dont mind agreeing with Catholics … or anyone else … when they agree with the Bible…This is quite Catholic of you to say, 1voice!
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1voice
Guest
It is clear what Paul is saying … and what he means.
It is also clear when Jesus said specifically … the Counselor (whom Paul describes as “The Spirit of grace” Heb10:29) , the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send** in my name**, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. John 14:26
There are multiple references to grace in the old as well as the new testament. Grace is always attributed directly to God. Mary is never … ever … (correct me if Im wrong
) mentioned.Mary, in the beautiful Magnificat
points only to her Savior… ( HER SAVIOR!!! !) ( HER … S-A-V-I-O-R)
!!!I agree with her … completly.
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LittleSoldier
Guest
In the OT God told His people to build an Ark. And they did. When the Ark of the Covenant was being transported one of the animals carrying it stumbled and an impure person put out his hand to keep it from falling and was struck dead on the spot. I’m sure you know all this as you seem to know Scripture passages much more than I do. Now I think that this can be seen as either punishment or an instant ticket to Heaven for the man who kept the Ark from falling. As the Bible appears to be silent on this, I don’t know. But either is possible.
From what I have read and been told, it is my understanding that a rope was secured around the high priest who entered the Holy of Holies, just in case he wasn’t really, really good and would be struck dead and then the people could pull his dead body out and not be struck dead themselves if they had to enter the Holy of Holies to remove the dead body. So, it’s clear to me that to touch the Ark of the Covenant or to look upon its contents (OK; I admit I got that last part from Indiana Jones and the Lost Ark) if one was not perfect (or as close to it as possible) one would be struck dead.
Mary was conceived without Original Sin. Mary never sinned. She is the PERFECT New Ark of the Covenant. She is, without doubt, the Ark of the Covenant. John knew this and he reported it in Revelation. He saw the Ark of the Covenant and recognized it. It’s not just that “[Mary] can be viewed as a type of the Ark of the (New) Covenant.” That’s kind of like saying that we are all the Theotokos. We just aren’t. There is only one Theotokos and that is Mary. She is absolutely the New Ark of the Covenant or the Ark of the New Covenant (is that right? that seems to be strange wording). She carried the Christ within her body, both physically and spiritually. Whatever we manage to do she did so much better - through the grace of God. The original Ark of the Covenant contained the stone tables with the Ten Commandments - the Law of God. Mary carried Jesus who came to fulfill the Law. The original Ark contained manna. Mary carried the Lamb of God who held up bread during the Last Supper and said “This is My Body which will be given up for you.” The original Ark contained the rod of Aaron and I’m not sure what that means and it’s too late to google it. I believe it was a symbol of the high priest. Jesus was the high priest of all high priests and Mary carried Him inside her womb.
Approximately half of the world’s devout Christians don’t have wombs. And the ones that do did not carry Jesus in them. It’s MARY. SHE is the ONLY human being who carried Jesus the Christ within her womb.
We aren’t Mary. We were all conceived with Original Sin. We all sin (there might be a few exceptions). Yet God certainly dwells within us. So we are also Arks of the Covenant. But we are not PERFECT Arks of the Covenant.
I think that we can be viewed as a type of the New Ark of the Covenant - but of a vastly inferior type. Mary is the PERFECT New Ark of the Covenant - the Ark of the Covenant of the NT.
And that is the understanding of a poorly catechized, Bible-illiterate, want-so-much-to-understand Christian who loves Mary with a deep devotion.
AVE MARIA! GRATIA PLENA!!
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LittleSoldier
Guest
ADDENDUM TO ABOVE POST:
I wanted to throw this in as a general question for everyone.
I noted above how holy and pure one had to be in order to not be struck dead if touching the Ark of the Covenant.
We sin. We are not holy and pure - at least not most of the time.
So - why aren’t we struck dead when we carry God within us?
I wanted to throw this in as a general question for everyone.
I noted above how holy and pure one had to be in order to not be struck dead if touching the Ark of the Covenant.
We sin. We are not holy and pure - at least not most of the time.
So - why aren’t we struck dead when we carry God within us?
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LittleSoldier
Guest
Oh, but she is mentioned! Gabriel referred to her as “Full of Grace” (and I’m not going to get into that Greek stuff (it’s all Greek to me!There are multiple references to grace in the old as well as the new testament. Grace is always attributed directly to God. Mary is never … ever … (correct me if Im wrong
) and I’m trying to learn Latin, although, like the Romans, it is killing me; I don’t want to get Greek and Latin all mixed up together in my head). Gabriel was talking to Mary. He didn’t call her Mary but I’ve never read anywhere where it claims that he wasn’t talking to Mary - specifically, the very young woman who was going to become the mother of the Christ. He addressed her by her title: “Full of Grace.” Of course this grace came from God. Grace always comes from God, even if it takes a side trip or two on the way - it’s His creation. All that grace that Mary was full of came from God. The *Hail Mary *contains the word “Mary” even though (gasp!) it isn’t found in the Bible. It’s a prayer. We say it. It’s OK. We believe in all the Word of God and are not restricted to only Bible Scripture. And anyone can pray using whatever words he/she wants: “Dearest Mary, I love you. Please pray for me. Amen.”Mary, in the beautiful Magnificat
points only to her Savior… ( HER SAVIOR!!! !) ( HER … S-A-V-I-O-R)
Why the "SAVIOR!!! ! HER … S-A-V-I-O-R !!! stuff? Of course He was (and is) her Savior. Why would anyone think otherwise? AVE MARIA! GRATIA PLENA! DOMINUS TECUM!
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GaryTaylor
Guest
I said so-what in a polite way the First time. Point is your not the Ark of the Covenant…Period. Your cherry picking of St Pauls verses doesn’t make you so. Are you suggesting to me you don’t sin after telling me earlier ALL SIN? In your riduculous fury of quote mining.
I understand everything St Paul said. I also understand that your conversation makes no sense “YET”. Why don’t you use YOUR words and elaborate on your theory of Christianity and what YOU believe. I know what ST Paul believed. He believed in the Last Supper in 1 Corinthians 11. Which you cannot receive in a State of Sin.
What you came to believe through St Paul I do not know.There is One Truth and the Truth was the Truth and is the Truth. It didn’t change for it would the NOT be the eternal, everlasting covenant of Gods TRUTH. No one changed the Truth but man. And the same truth from Matthew foward exists right at this moment in time. And it will continue. The New Testament “is” the New and Everlasting Covenant. Which when you finally get around to reading St Paul in context you will understand he understood.
Lets us get back to the Ark of the Covenant shall we?
Now in dilemma you stated.
“I am not focused on the Catholic belief that Mary was sinless.
My focus is on the concept Gary proposes that all grace flows through Mary” Now listen carefully.
“All Grace” flowed through Mary as the Holy Spirit overshadowed Her so yes she is Full of Grace. Point is where in the Bible does it state it stopped.
The Word became Flesh through St Mary. She didn’t lose her Grace, She increased Her state of comprehending it by participating in it. Yes Our Ladys life was a perpetual fiat which culminated with Her Sons death on the Cross and thus her devotion to His Church estabished by Him through Her. And that Church is HER. Which if you go back and read this thread you will come to understand. Now as the Ark of Covenant is spoken about in Revelation.So to follows Chaper 12. The woman cloaked with the Sun, Moon at Her feet Twelve Stars etc. There is the church. Mary is the church.
As the Ark of Covenant was created fitting to accept the Lord, so too was St Mary created fitting to accept the Lord.
Thus Mary is the Ark of the Covenant which as I pointed out in Revelation doesn’t reside here on earth it is in Heaven. Concluding YOU are not the Ark. A point you refuse to respond to ARE YOU THE ARK OF THE COVENANT?
That is the point of this conversation you and I have reached. Not the Gary said, he said St Paul said nonsense.
I know what I said what St Paul said and what you said. I’m waiting to hear you tell me if you are the Ark of the Covenant?So the confrontation remains there. Which BTW you have been avoiding.
Peace
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GaryTaylor
Guest
It doesn’t, you do. Allow me to show you how.
You quoted Romans “all have sinned” etc. to prove that Mary could not have been born free from sin. RIGHT?
A closer look at the passage shows that Paul is actually quoting the OT (Psalms 14:3 They have all gone astray, they are all alike corrupt; there is none that does good, no, not one.”)
Psalms 14:3 is about the evil/sinners of the OT times who were sinners and that there is also Gods people who where/are righteous. Paul is talking about evildoers in that passage and is not referring to all people. Later in Romans Paul talks about the generation of the righteous. Those who accept the New and Everlasting Covenant is who the rightous are. Historically, Biblically and today.
Does Paul contradict himself? Of couse not, however we already concluded Adam and Eve were created Free of Original Sin. Thus there are not One or Two but Four who were and do “not” fall under your assumption of what you think St Paul is talking about. Thus also the further elaboration of the scripture.
However, then you would like to now twist St Pauls scripture to conclude ALL are the Ark of the Covenant which we must conclude even are Sola Scriptura enthusists know…The Ark is in Heaven as per Revelation.
How does THIS relate to YOUR theory that ALL ARE SINNERS???
Wait a minute your exact words are … “KINDA like an Ark” which you have NOW stretched to, and mind you that is a stretch. Does not make you The Ark of the Covenant!!
So are we all sinners, or are we all Kinda like Arks? So who is contradicting Bible verse here?
However if you would like to be Kinda Like the Ark, I will grant your that request under ONE CONDITION. Catholic Church…Eucharist, New and Everlasting Covenant
Yes you know the drill CONFESSION, Sanctifying Grace, Living Presence, State of Grace. Gottcha. I hear you, I know its not easy, however it is that narrow path the Lord speaks about, and all the Saints followed. Historically and Biblically that is.Otherwise I will wait for the Biblical verse where Christ states “Just pray to me and your Sins are Forgiven” which save yourself the trouble, it doesn’t exist, not even in twisting St Pauls words for eternity.
Peace
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nuntym
Guest
+JMJ+
Also, please point to me any verse in the Bible which says that a person cannot be used by God to impart grace to someone else.
And remember what was said also in the Maginificat? “For behold, all generations will call me blessed.”
When was the last time you called Mary blessed?
Stop hacking off your own legs with your own words, please, it’s embarrassing.
Yes, THE HOLY SPIRIT, NOT THE SCRIPTURES.
Please point to me any teaching of the Catholic Church where it says the graces flowing from Mary does not come from God.There are multiple references to grace in the old as well as the new testament. Grace is always attributed directly to God. Mary is never … ever … (correct me if Im wrong
Also, please point to me any verse in the Bible which says that a person cannot be used by God to impart grace to someone else.
And we do too. However, how does that figure with Mary being or not being the Ark of the Covenant?Mary, in the beautiful Magnificat
points only to her Savior… ( HER SAVIOR!!! !) ( HER … S-A-V-I-O-R)
I agree with her … completly.
And remember what was said also in the Maginificat? “For behold, all generations will call me blessed.”
When was the last time you called Mary blessed?
Stop hacking off your own legs with your own words, please, it’s embarrassing.
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LittleSoldier
Guest
EDIT TO POST #54
In that post I said that the original Ark of the Covenant contained within it the Stone Tablets with the Ten Commandments and that Mary carried Jesus Who came to fulfill the law. That isn’t quite right and I’ve been told so (I always appreciate it when someone tells me when I am wrong or unclear or just partially correct).
The Ten Commandments are the Word of God. Jesus is the Word of God. THAT is why Mary carried within her womb what corresponded to the Word of God, but in a more complete sense.
The Rod of Aaron symbolized the high priest. Jesus actually WAS the highest priest there ever was and ever will be.
The items in the original Ark of the Covenant are perfected…where? In Mary - the new Ark of the Covenant who carried God within her womb - not just spiritually but physically.
When we receive the Eucharist in a state of grace we also carry God within our bodies - both spiritually and physically. So, in a sense, we ARE Arks of the Covenant. We share in Mary’s joy and in her blessings. But we are so imperfect. To say that Mary is the Ark of the Covenant IN A SENSE while we are the real Arks of the Covenant has it backwards.
We are Arks of the Covenant in a sense but Mary is the real, perfect Ark of the Covenant, the “Woman clothed with the sun” as in Revelation.
I hope that someone responds to my posts because so far nobody has and it’s not that I feel left out but that I want to be correct in what I post and I want to learn. Please - if I make a mistake, please tell me. I want to find Truth. I know I"m not writing slam-dunk posts that make everything so clear that nobody will even change one tiny thing I have said. (I think I actually managed to do that once and I’ve written over 6,000 posts, not including the ones removed for one reason or another). I once wrote that Mary was full of grace because she accepted her mission. WRONG! She was already full of grace. Fortunately I found out that I was wrong, all by myself, and edited my post. But nobody told me I was wrong on such a basic teaching of the Church. I’ll never forget that incident.
And if I say ANYTHING that goes against Church teaching, please please please tell me because I will ALWAYS defer to Church teaching and the Magisterium, even if I don’t understand.
I need some help here and I am praying that I receive it.
In that post I said that the original Ark of the Covenant contained within it the Stone Tablets with the Ten Commandments and that Mary carried Jesus Who came to fulfill the law. That isn’t quite right and I’ve been told so (I always appreciate it when someone tells me when I am wrong or unclear or just partially correct).
The Ten Commandments are the Word of God. Jesus is the Word of God. THAT is why Mary carried within her womb what corresponded to the Word of God, but in a more complete sense.
The Rod of Aaron symbolized the high priest. Jesus actually WAS the highest priest there ever was and ever will be.
The items in the original Ark of the Covenant are perfected…where? In Mary - the new Ark of the Covenant who carried God within her womb - not just spiritually but physically.
When we receive the Eucharist in a state of grace we also carry God within our bodies - both spiritually and physically. So, in a sense, we ARE Arks of the Covenant. We share in Mary’s joy and in her blessings. But we are so imperfect. To say that Mary is the Ark of the Covenant IN A SENSE while we are the real Arks of the Covenant has it backwards.
We are Arks of the Covenant in a sense but Mary is the real, perfect Ark of the Covenant, the “Woman clothed with the sun” as in Revelation.
I hope that someone responds to my posts because so far nobody has and it’s not that I feel left out but that I want to be correct in what I post and I want to learn. Please - if I make a mistake, please tell me. I want to find Truth. I know I"m not writing slam-dunk posts that make everything so clear that nobody will even change one tiny thing I have said. (I think I actually managed to do that once and I’ve written over 6,000 posts, not including the ones removed for one reason or another). I once wrote that Mary was full of grace because she accepted her mission. WRONG! She was already full of grace. Fortunately I found out that I was wrong, all by myself, and edited my post. But nobody told me I was wrong on such a basic teaching of the Church. I’ll never forget that incident.
And if I say ANYTHING that goes against Church teaching, please please please tell me because I will ALWAYS defer to Church teaching and the Magisterium, even if I don’t understand.
I need some help here and I am praying that I receive it.
- Status