The Ark of the Covenant in the New Testament

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Luvtosew said:
No, I know the word is venerate, but there is a thin line that gets blurred betweent the two.
Not Poor Cathechesis, just observation.
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Not poor catechesis, but you used the word worship (meaning latria) and attached it to Mary?

That is a very good example of not knowing what the Church teaches, Luv. :sad_yes:
 
Luvtosew said:
No, I know the word is venerate, but there is a thin line that gets blurred betweent the two.
Not Poor Cathechesis, just observation.
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Hope you find this interesting:

Dulia

(Greek doulia; Latin servitus), a theological term signifying the honour paid to the saints, while latria means worship given to God alone, and** hyperdulia the veneration offered to the Blessed Virgin Mary.** St. Augustine (City of God X.2) distinguishes two kinds of servitus: “one which is due to men . . . which in Greek is called dulia; the other, latria, which is the service pertaining to the worship of God”. St. Thomas (II-II:103:3) bases the distinction on the difference between God’s supreme dominion and that which one man may exercise over another. Catholic theologians insist that the difference is one of kind and not merely of degree; dulia and latria being as far apart as are the creature and the Creator. Leibniz, though a Protestant, recognizes the “discrimen infinitum atque immensum between the honour which is due to God and that which is shown to the saints, the one being called by theologians, after Augustine’s example, latria, the other dulia”; and he further declares that this difference should “not only be inculcated in the minds of hearers and learners, but should also be manifested as far as possible by outward signs” (Syst. theol., p. 184). A further distinction is made between dulia in the absolute sense, the honour paid to persons, and dulia in the relative sense, the honour paid to inanimate objects, such as images and relics. With regard to the saints, dulia includes veneration and invocation; the former being the honour paid directly to them, the latter having primarily in view the petitioner’s advantage. More detailed explanation of dulia and the reasons for which it is shown to persons or things will be found in the articles IMAGES, RELICS, SAINTS. See also ADORATION and WORSHIP. –http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05188b.htm
 
PRmerger said:
Not poor catechesis, but you used the word worship (meaning latria) and attached it to Mary?

That is a very good example of not knowing what the Church teaches, Luv. :sad_yes:
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I know the Church teaches venerate, not worship, but like I said there a fine line between the two, and it can get blurred.
 
Radical said:
I think that you are far too optimistic in this regard. Some time ago, to demonstrate how easy it is to find Luke’s alleged fascination with creating a hidden “Ark” message by importing wording from the OT, I produced this proof that Stephen is, in fact, the new Ark:

a) Stephen is brought before the assembly of the religious leaders of God’s people (Acts 6:12) and the religious leaders of God people are assembled before the Ark of the Covenant (the AC) (2 Chron 5:2)

b) The Lord appeared upon the mercy seat of the AC (Lev 16:2) and the Lord appeared to Stephen just before he died (Acts 7:56)

c) Stephen was full of God’s power (Acts 6: 8) and the AC was called the Ark of God’s power (2 Chron 6:41)

d) Stephen did miraculous things among the people (Acts 6:8) and the AC did miraculous things among the people (drying up the Jordan at Jos 4:15-16, striking Uzzah dead at 2 Sam 6:7)

e) Stephen had the face of an angel (Acts 6:15) and the AC had angels on its lid (2 Chron 5:7)

f) Stephen saw the glory of God above him and the AC had God’s glory fill the temple area above it (2 Chron 5: 14)

g) The last record of Stephen’s existence on earth is at Jerusalem and the last record of the AC’s existence on earth is at Jerusalem.

h) Stephen’s last recorded resting place was amongst stones and the last recorded resting place of the AC was amongst the stones that formed the temple.

i) The ark of the Old Covenant disappeared, and no trace of it can be found anywhere on earth. Stephen has disappeared and no trace of him can be found anywhere on earth

j) The Jews shouted in front of Stephen (Acts 7:57) and the people shouted before the AC (2 Sam 6:15)

k) Stephen asks God to forgive the people for their sin (Acts 7:60) in stoning him and Solomon in dedicating the temple with the AC inside of it asks God to forgive the people for their sin (2 Chron 6:27).

Personally, I don’t think my proof is any weaker (or more contrived) than the one that has been produced regarding the Mary-Ark connection
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The problem with your proof is that there is no logical connection between Stephen and the Ark. Stephen did not bear the “Bread of Life,” and it certainly is not Stephen who appears in Heaven right after the only the only mention of the Ark in the N.T. Besides we have many centuries of tradition interpreting these passages to show the correlation betweem Mary and the Ark. That can’t be discounted.
here’s another one:
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2 Sam 24:21: And Araunah said, Wherefore is my lord the king come to his servant?
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Luke 1:43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come unto me?
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so Luke did not inadvertently connect David going to see Araunah with Mary going to see Elizabeth? …why did he do that?..was he really saying that Mary was looking to buy a thrashing floor from Elizabeth?
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Once again, there is no logical connection. On the other hand, 2 Samuel 6:9 goes rather nicely with the Luke 1:43 verse you have quoted.
Personally, I think it is as simple as the case being that, if one is determined to do so, then one will usually be able to find common words and phrases in two different works.
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I disagree. Not to the extent that they are found in Luke.
 
Luvtosew said:
Not really according to Scriptures, she is the BVM and Jesus Christ is our Lord and Saviour, I see not more more than that of her in scripture, except at the wedding in Cana, and the Foot of the Cross,
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And what does this mean? Is there a verse in Scripture that says that the number of times you are mentioned indicates how important you are?

Please cite the chapter and verse that says this!
both times he referred to her as Woman.
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And what does this mean? That Jesus was putting his mother in her place? You really think that Jesus would throw the Fourth Commandment out the window, in front of all of his followers and disrespect his own mother?

Or do you think that John makes the point about Mary being The Woman for a greater theological reason?
 
Luvtosew said:
I know the Church teaches venerate, not worship, but like I said there a fine line between the two, and it can get blurred.
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You are quite mistaken, Luv.

The difference between venerate and worship is as far apart as the creature is from the Creator.

You are saying, essentially, “There is a very fine line between humankind and God–sometimes I can’t tell the difference!” :eek:
 
Luvtosew said:
No of course not, but the Bible is about Jesus, and please give me a chapter and verse where Jesus or his 12 apostles say to venerate Mary?
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But this is *your *paradigm, Luv. Not mine. And not the Catholic one. WE don’t claim that all of our beliefs come from Scripture. Our beliefs come from Christ.

It is YOUR paradigm that what you believe has to be found in the Bible.

So, since that’s your belief, you have to show where it says that the more you are mentioned in the Bible the more important you are.

If you can’t find it, then you have just believed something NOT found in the Bible.

And that’s against your beliefs, right?
 
PRmerger said:
You are quite mistaken, Luv.

The difference between venerate and worship is as far apart as the creature is from the Creator.

You are saying, essentially, “There is a very fine line between humankind and God–sometimes I can’t tell the difference!” :eek:
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No I think there is a fine line, even the dictionary states that, Now for as many Cahtolics as there are there are as many opinions on how they view the BVM. Defination of worship.

worship ˈwɜːʃɪp]
vb -ships, -shipping, -shipped US, -ships -shiping, -shiped
  1. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) (tr) to show profound religious devotion and respect to; adore or venerate (God or any person or thing considered divine)
  2. (tr) to be devoted to and full of admiration for
  3. (intr) to have or express feelings of profound adoration
  4. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) (intr) to attend services for worship
  5. (tr) Obsolete to honour
    n
  6. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) religious adoration or devotion
  7. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) the formal expression of religious adoration; rites, prayers, etc.
  8. admiring love or devotion
  9. Archaic dignity or standing
    [Old English weorthscipe, from worth1 + -ship]
    worshipable adj
 
Luvtosew said:
Now did I say that no, I’m sure Jesus had a great love for Mary and honored her as we are all to honor our parents.
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Excellent. Then you have just embraced the Catholic position. 👍
But the emphais of the Bible is on Jesus.
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This is a non-sequitur.

No one here is claiming that the emphasis of the Bible is on Mary.
 
Luvtosew said:
No I think there is a fine line,
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And paraphrasing the great doctor of the Church: it’s as fine as that between the creature and the Creator.

And if one cannot see the difference, then there is no hope for this lack of vision.
even the dictionary states that, Now for as many Cahtolics as there are there are as many opinions on how they view the BVM. Defination of worship.
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worship ˈwɜːʃɪp]
vb -ships, -shipping, -shipped US, -ships -shiping, -shiped
  1. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) (tr) to show profound religious devotion and respect to; adore or venerate (God or any person or thing considered divine)
  2. (tr) to be devoted to and full of admiration for
  3. (intr) to have or express feelings of profound adoration
  4. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) (intr) to attend services for worship
  5. (tr) Obsolete to honour
    n
  6. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) religious adoration or devotion
  7. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) the formal expression of religious adoration; rites, prayers, etc.
  8. admiring love or devotion
  9. Archaic dignity or standing
    [Old English weorthscipe, from worth1 + -ship]
    worshipable adj
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All of the above is absolutely true. 👍

That’s why the Church makes it clear that latria is reserved for God alone. And doulia and hyperdoulia for the saints and Mary.
 
PRmerger said:
It’s a profound theological point about Mary being The Woman, but I don’t wish to get into it right now.

I suggest you watch the video that was offered here earlier:

youtube.com/watch?v=kUdYeYy3NQA

The slide at 2:20 is quite profound.
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Yes I’ve heard everything in the video,

I don’t think Christ is the new Adam any more than Mary is the New Eve.

Also Rev 12:1 is not Mary, it is Israel, the the twelve stars are the 12 tribes. Israel gave birth to Jesus, Jesus gave birth to his Church.

I have no problem with how other people want to venerate the BVM , its up to you, but all of us Catholics have different feelings about this. So we just all have to respect each other on our differences. God Bless.
 
Luvtosew said:
Yes I don’t like to make assumptions.
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And yet it’s an assumption you’re making that the more you’re mentioned in the Bible the more important you are.

This is especially egregious since you’ve just said you don’t like to make assumptions, yet here you are making a very big one!

Incidentally, do you know that Jesus is not even mentioned in 3 John?

And yet this is part of the inspired Word of God.

And the ONLY way you know it is inspired, even if it doesn’t say Jesus in it, is because some MEN decided this for you.
 
Luvtosew said:
Yes I don’t like to make assumptions.
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Do you mind not nesting your responses, Luv? When I hit “quote”, to respond to your comments, the only thing that shows up is your above statement, because it’s outside the colored box.
 
PRmerger said:
Do you mind not nesting your responses, Luv? When I hit “quote”, to respond to your comments, the only thing that shows up is your above statement, because it’s outside the colored box.
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Sorry, I’ll try my best.
 
Luvtosew said:
I don’t think Christ is the new Adam any more than Mary is the New Eve.
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'kay. Let’s just agree that Jesus is the last Adam, then. And then that would make Mary the last Eve.
Also Rev 12:1 is not Mary, it is Israel, the the twelve stars are the 12 tribes. Israel gave birth to Jesus, Jesus gave birth to his Church.
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Yes, and with most Catholic answers it’s not either/or but both/and.

Rev 12:1 is Israel, but it’s also Mary. 🤷
I have no problem with how other people want to venerate the BVM , its up to you, but all of us Catholics have different feelings about this. So we just all have to respect each other on our differences. God Bless.
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Certainly.

But just imagine if someone said this: I have no problem with how other people elevate white people. It’s up to you. All of us Christians have different feelings about this. So we all just have to respect each other on our differences.

This, of course, would be something that we would need to rebuke, yes? We are called to admonish the sinner, and if someone says something that he feels is contrary to the Word of God, then we MUST correct this.

So I’m glad you’re ok with Catholic veneration of Mary. But it’s a peculiar paradigm to say that it doesn’t really matter what you believe, as we all have different feelings about this.
 
PR, I will have to get back tomorrow, but if we all thought the same we’d be like robots, God in his infinate wisdom made us all individuals.🙂
 
Luvtosew said:
PR, I will have to get back tomorrow, but if we all thought the same we’d be like robots, God in his infinate wisdom made us all individuals.🙂
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So you’re ok with a Christian proclaiming that God elevates white people?

Or with someone stating that he can take as many wives as he wants?

I am certain that these folks can back up their views with some isolated Bible verses.

Are these not all “individuals” who are offering their opinions? You’re ok with this? :confused:
 
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