The Art of Killing--for Kids

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nickybr38 said:
Oh, just go and watch an episode. You’ll understand. but remember to take everything with a grain of salt. He is over the top and definitely has an agenda.
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I’m happy that I won’t even try watching it. :3
 
spencelo said:
According to your logic, if I sawed off a conscious person’s leg as part of an unethical scientific experiment, that wouldn’t be torture (because my intent isn’t to punish, coerce, or receive pleasure). Animals raised for food are tortured in the plain sense that the suffering inflicted on them is horrendous.
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That is correct–it would not be torture. There are a lot of things it would be – torture just isn’t one of them. You do understand that words have definitions don’t you?

When the cow is raised in the field and then slaughtered in a humane manner where is the horrendous suffering being inflicted on them? You can’t keep pointing to abuses in an attempt to invalidate raising animals for food–I have already pointed out why. Please explain the horrendous suffering being inflicted on the animal above. To kill an animal is not to inflict suffering.

Peace,
Mark
 
spencelo said:
In other words, because God gave humans the license to be cruel to animals, that’s okay?
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Not at all, Spence, not at all. Cruelty is forbidden in all cases and is a sin against the 5th commandment. ‘Domain’ over the animals gives us the privilege of using them for work, food, clothes. Those are a few reasons God put them here for us…

Respecting Gods creation and gifts to us means using those gifts for their intended purpose…not cruelly. Some animals are prey…you know that. There is a reason for that undeniable law of nature.

I meant it when I said that I respect your integrity…I do. Don’t eat meat if you don’t want to. Thats great for you and others of your ilk, but not morally superior.
 
spencelo said:
That’s what the evidence tells us. Do you have knowledge to the contrary? Please cite your sources for the proposition that plants can suffer, feel terror and anxiety, stress, pleasure and joy.
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No, but do you have evidence that says they do not? Please cite your source for the proposition that plants do not suffer, feel terror and anxiety, stress, pleasure and joy.
spencelo said:
What the cheetah does is bad but not immoral – cheetah simply doesn’t know any better, and he needs to do it to survive. If I had things my way, I would drive predators to extinction if there would be less suffering in the world.
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This, I think, might be the silliest thing I’ve ever heard in my life. Since Human beings are at the top of the food chain, that makes us the number 1 predator on the planet. You wish for the extinction of the human race as well?
 
jenwha said:
I totally agree. I’ve met a couple of insane “farmers” in my time who seemed to enjoy telling stories of shooting barn cats in the head and other lovely, pleasant, moral, animal killing activities. It’s disgusting.

Total serial killer mentality.
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As apposed to the moral people that humanely drop their cats off in the country so they can starve and become prey for other animals.

Just curious - would you consider the Humane Society and PETA to be group serial killers? The kill more animals than any “insane” farmer.
 
SamH said:
As apposed to the moral people that humanely drop their cats off in the country so they can starve and become prey for other animals.

Just curious - would you consider the Humane Society and PETA to be group serial killers? The kill more animals than any “insane” farmer.
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I consider the likes of Ingrid Newkirk to be very serious dangers to any community.
 
MarkInOregon said:
That is correct–it would not be torture. There are a lot of things it would be – torture just isn’t one of them. You do understand that words have definitions don’t you?
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merriam-webster.com/dictionary/torture

1
a : anguish of body or mind : agony
b : something that causes agony or pain
MarkInOregon said:
When the cow is raised in the field and then slaughtered in a humane manner where is the horrendous suffering being inflicted on them?
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First, I was talking about factory farming, which does routinely impose horrendous suffering on animals.

Second, in the scenario you describe, there is still a great amount of suffering: humanemyth.org/

Third, the scenario you describe would still be unjustified even if possible.
animalblawg.wordpress.com/2012/09/11/whats-wrong-with-happy-meat/
 
spencelo said:
merriam-webster.com/dictionary/torture

1
a : anguish of body or mind : agony
b : something that causes agony or pain

First, I was talking about factory farming, which does routinely impose horrendous suffering on animals.

Second, in the scenario you describe, there is still a great amount of suffering: humanemyth.org/

Third, the scenario you describe would still be unjustified even if possible.
animalblawg.wordpress.com/2012/09/11/whats-wrong-with-happy-meat/
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What is a “factory” farm?
 
spencelo said:
Some scholarly sources:

papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1006057

papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2104294

papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2111455

papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1540895

papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1646484

jamesrachels.org/stuart/veg.pdf
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Really? I see an essay written by some random person (why should we listen to him?)

And some papers written by other random people.

May I ask why it is you’re comfortable eating plants despite the studies that have proven plants have feelings?

By the way, considering your audience, this may have been the more convincing link:
productionx.net/a/a-catholic-response-to-factory-farming-w3350.html

Or this;

utilitarian.net/singer/by/20060322.htm

or this;

catholicmoraltheology.com/are-we-all-michael-vick-our-addiction-to-animal-cruelty-a-call-to-conversion/

or this;

catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2010/10/04/st-francis-would-have-abhorred-factory-farming/

You’re welcome.

PS: This attitude that scholarly people who THINK about these things but never actually have lived the REALITY of them have more right to an opinion then people who have LIVED these things is really, really laughable.

I’ll take practical experience over someone who can think about it. Thanks. 😛
 
nickybr38 said:
Really? I see an essay written by some random person (why should we listen to him?)
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I suppose any **scholar **who writes on the subject would be a “random person,” in your view. If you bothered to read the abstracts, you’d know that the author is David N. Cassuto of Pace Law School. law.pace.edu/faculty/david-n-cassuto

“Random person?” Hardly. But I understand it’s easy to play the extreme skeptical card in order to avoid confronting the difficult truth: that we routinely inflict massively terrible wrongs on sensitive, sentient beings for no legitimate purpose whatsoever. To call humans “mass murders” would be a radical understatement.
 
spencelo said:
I suppose any **scholar **who writes on the subject would be a “random person,” in your view. If you bothered to read the abstracts, you’d know that the author is David N. Cassuto of Pace Law School. law.pace.edu/faculty/david-n-cassuto

“Random person?” Hardly. But I understand it’s easy to play the extreme skeptical card in order to avoid confronting the difficult truth: that we routinely inflict massively terrible wrongs on sensitive, sentient beings for no legitimate purpose whatsoever. To call humans “mass murders” would be a radical understatement.
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Sorry, all my meat comes from family farms (as in, my family’s farm) so… there’s no ‘difficult’ truth for me to confront. I’m friends with my soon to be meat. 😃

I take EVERYTHING I read online with a HUGE grain of salt. Anyone can claim to be ANYTHING online. That fellows website is so poorly done that I have to presume he’s some teenager pretending to be someone of import just to make his opinion hold more weight. And you’ve fallen for it. Good job.
 
nickybr38 said:
Sorry, all my meat comes from family farms (as in, my family’s farm) so… there’s no ‘difficult’ truth for me to confront. I’m friends with my soon to be meat. 😃
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animalblawg.wordpress.com/2012/09/11/whats-wrong-with-happy-meat/
nickybr38 said:
I take EVERYTHING I read online with a HUGE grain of salt. Anyone can claim to be ANYTHING online. That fellows website is so poorly done that I have to presume he’s some teenager pretending to be someone of import just to make his opinion hold more weight. And you’ve fallen for it. Good job.
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Are you suggesting that the person on that website isn’t a law professor at Pace Law School?
 
spencelo said:
animalblawg.wordpress.com/2012/09/11/whats-wrong-with-happy-meat/

Are you suggesting that the person on that website isn’t a law professor at Pace Law School?
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Absolutely.

I’ve seen your ‘happy meat’ link. I did not find it convincing. One shot. One kill. No suffering.

Explain to me how come you feel comfortable eating plants when there are studies that have shown they possess the ability to communicate and to feel?

If you want links, check my previous posts. I posted the links earlier.
 
nickybr38 said:
Absolutely.
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That’s patently ridiculous, and you know it, and I know you do it. Willful self-deception is quite a powerful phenomenon.
nickybr38 said:
I’ve seen your ‘happy meat’ link. I did not find it convincing. One shot. One kill. No suffering.
nickybr38;9797808:
The post takes the “no suffering” aspect into account, which I’d like to see you address -f you’re willing.
nickybr38;9797808:
Explain to me how come you feel comfortable eating plants when there are studies that have shown they possess the ability to communicate and to feel?

If you want links, check my previous posts. I posted the links earlier.
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Where? Post them again.
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spencelo said:
That’s patently ridiculous, and you know it, and I know you do it. Willful self-deception is quite a powerful phenomenon.
nickybr38;9797808:
I’ve seen your ‘happy meat’ link. I did not find it convincing. One shot. One kill. No suffering.
nickybr38;9797808:
The post takes the “no suffering” aspect into account, which I’d like to see you address -f you’re willing.

Where? Post them again.
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All I saw in your link are claims that these animals STILL suffer. No. They don’t. My cow out in the field is very happy. She’ll tell you so herself if you go visit with her. She’s content and friendly. Anyone can go up to her and stroke her side or whisper in her ear. She likes that especially.

The turkeys? They are free range. Go where they want when they want.

We keep the pigs penned but their pen is the size of my entire HOUSE and we keep two in that space. They’re just fine and very happy. You can see all the signs of their happiness.

I’m there when they die. I sometimes help with the butchering of the chickens. It’s quick. They’re dead before they know they’re dying.

Where’s the suffering? I see none.

Call it self deception all you want but I DARE you to see how the animals on my family farm are treated and call it cruelty. I dare you to watch how they are butchered and say they suffer. If you see suffering in any of it you are merely projecting your own human horror onto the situation and not viewing it with open eyes.
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