the assumption of the Virgin Mary

[mark_a]

mark,
it’s a conspiracy. the apostles took them and hid them to fool us all.

The apostles were part of the conspiracy. . . . . I guess the Mormons are right after all!

 

[occupant]

The apostles were part of the conspiracy. . . . . I guess the Mormons are right after all!

now you’re getting it!

 

[Des]

I beleive that you labor under some misinformation as to what a soul is. A soul is not an entity that lives inside your body which departs to live somewhere else at the death of that body. A soul is a body plus the breath or spirit of God, these two together constitute a soul. You can’t have one without the other. Gen2:7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Man becomes a living soul. He doesn’t have one. So when you die the spirit or breath of God goes back to Him and the body goes into the ground to await the resurrection either to life eternal in Christ or eternal destruction.

Your poor interpretation is self contradicting. The only thing we can conclude from that verse is that the body formed by God was void of a soul until He breathed into the nostrils telling us indeed a body does not have to ‘always’ be united with a soul for every second of it’s existence. They were not simultaneously interwoven as the body came first and the soul came second. You would also have to show us where in Scripture was Moses’ body taken to Heaven since you NEED to hear it from Scripture to know it to be true correct? You cannot assume this.

 

[Peter_J]

I probably misspoke giving the impression that I thought the idea of the assumption originated with PiusX11 when what I was trying to convey was that he made this doctrine ex cathedra and therefore binding under pain of sin and a threat to salvation which I find no hint of in the bible.

I would suggest the thread When dogma is defined

 

[Louie1983]

I don’t beleive Christ founded the Catholic church the way it is today. To much heresy.

Ya, He is talking about His church. not the Catholic church.

This is what I am talking about. Paul never sets up the office of bishop as one to be followed and certainly not to be reverenced. He is to be a servant of the body of Christ. By the way 1Tim3 says that a bishop must be married.

These are some rather arrogant statements. Let’ take them one at a time. You have me at a disadvantage. I’m afraid that I don’t know who this Ignatius is, but I seriously doubt that he was a disciple of John’s, if as you say he taught that Christ was present in the eucharist. If he was he must have splintered away from the true church because John never taught this kind of blasphemy.

Are you saying that the only ones in a position to question the veracity of the assumption are those inside the church. I would have to disagree with that because those inside the church probably would not consider questioning this doctrine under pain of mortal sin. I labor under no such condemnation, therefore that makes me and those outside of the church uniquely qualified to do so.

Well, if you mean anti-catholic dogmas. I again would have to disagree The bible not only gives me the authority but the responsibility to speak up against anti-biblical teachings However I agree that we cannot do this on our own we must do everything in conjunction with the Spirit of God. 1Cor2:12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

This is probably the must unbeleivably arrogant thing I have ever seen posted on this forum and I have seen some beauts. To say that the God who created the universe would be encumbered by the so-called magesterial authority of the Catholic church to give His word to His Curch is mind bogaling.

I’m not sure what your point is in all this. So i’ll just let it be.

Richard, unfortunately for you there are hundreds of quotes from the early church fathers and saints that support and agree with the doctrine of the assumption of our lady into heaven, some saints more known than others (St Augustine, St Thomas Aquinas etc). They also agreed on the infallibility of the Pope and his authority as the head of Jesus’ church here on earth.

The onus is on you to refute this, are you questioning the teachings of the doctors and fathers of the faith? You base your argument on a false premesis that “it has to be in the bible to be true”, if that’s the case then why does St Paul say to honour the both the **oral and written traditions ** of the church? He also states that the church is the pillar of truth! The catholic church has 2000 years and thousands of theologians/doctors of the faith that support this! not to mention Christ’s promise that the gates of hell will not prevail against the church.

 

[Peter_J]

Richard, unfortunately for you there are hundreds of quotes from the early church fathers and saints that support and agree with the doctrine of the assumption of our lady into heaven, some saints more known than others (St Augustine, St Thomas Aquinas etc). **They also agreed on the infallibility of the Pope and his authority as the head of Jesus’ church here on earth. **

I would like to see those quotes, Louie1983. They would be a great help to me, since I often debate with Orthodox and Protestants about Papal Infallibility and authority.

 

[Louie1983]

Peter J

here it is, this website is fantastic! I recommend it to anyone!

scripturecatholic.com/primacy_of_peter.html#scripture_I

there are literally 30-40 quotes on this link so i didn’t want to post it on the forum. EVERYONE can read as they wish.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

I am saying that if you ONLY believe what is in the bible and reject the rest you are cutting yourself severely short. Are you okay with that?

What do you mean by “cutting yourself severely short.” Jesus said in John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. If I can find eternal life by searching the scriptures that testify of Jesus what else matters.

 

[Louie1983]

Richard,

read carefully what Cluny wrote. " am saying that if you **ONLY **believe what is in the bible and reject the rest you are cutting yourself severely short".

He is not saying don’t believe what’s in the bible, he is saying there are truths that are taught by the the oral traditions of the church as well as the truths in the bible.

 

[Peter_J]

Peter J

here it is, this website is fantastic!

Thanks. Unfortunately I don’t have time to look at it tonight, but if it shows the early church fathers agreed on the infallibility of the Pope, then that really is incredible.

 

[Louie1983]

No problems at all Peter.

please also see this link: scripturecatholic.com/primacy_of_peter.html#tradition_III

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Saying that “altar” means “grave” is a good example of eisogesis–that is reading into a passage what you want it to say.

I didn’t say altar means grave, but under the altar were the blood of the sacrifice was poured which is the ground or the grave.

 

[Louie1983]

I do.It’s just that the church that is the body of Christ is not the Catholic Church.

It is the Catholic Church! when our lord said to Peter " you are Peter the rock, and on this rock i will build my church". was he talking to all the disciples or was he only talking to Peter? The answer ofcourse is Peter as he driectly addressed Peter and not the other disciples.

 

[Good_Fella]

I don’t beleive Christ founded the Catholic church the way it is today. Too much heresy.

“And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”
Matthew 16, 18

You make Jesus out to be either a liar or impotent against Satan.

“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming.”
John 16, 12-13

Jesus is addressing his apostles, and referring to those men who will validly succeed them in their divine office through the invocation of the Spirit and by the laying on of hands in a line of apostolic succession (Acts 9:17-19; Eph 2:20; 1 Tim 4:14; 5:22; 2 Tim 4:1-6), not general believers like ourselves who have appointed themselves the teaching authority in their private interpretation of the Scriptures.

He is talking about His church. not the Catholic church.

Christ never founded his One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church in 16th century Europe. Protestantism began then with Martin Luther, a Catholic monk, who nevertheless believed in the Assumption of Mary his entire life. Protestants eventually lost touch with the scriptural Mary with the rise of Rationalism and an alienation from divine mystery, which was inevitable in that they had made themselves spiritual orphans by separating themselves from the Church and the protection of the promised Paraclete.

Paul never sets up the office of bishop as one to be followed and certainly** not to be reverenced**. He is to be a servant of the body of Christ…

Are you sure about that? :coffeeread:

“Presbyters who preside well deserve double honor, especially those who toil in preaching and teaching.”
1 Timothy 3, 17

Remember your leaders who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.
Hebrews 13, 7

Obey your leaders and defer to them, for they keep watch over you and will have to give an account, that they may fulfill their task with joy and not with sorrow, for that would be of no advantage to you.
Hebrews 13, 17

For we are not like the many who trade on the word of God; but as out of sincerity, indeed as from God and in the presence of God, we speak in Christ.
2 Corinthians 2, 17

I’m afraid that I don’t know who this Ignatius is, but I seriously doubt that he was a disciple of John’s, if as you say he taught that Christ was present in the eucharist. If he was he must have splintered away from the true church because John never taught this kind of blasphemy.

Ignatius was Bishop of Antioch, one of the Bishoprics of the early Catholic Church. He is one of the early Church Fathers, and he never fell away from the true Church as Tertullian did. He died a martyr for the true faith and was one of John’s disciples. Together with Bishop Polycarp, Ignatius was a member of a school founded by John. He immediately succeeded Evodius as Bishop of Antioch being appointed and consecrated by the hands of Peter the apostle according to Theodoret.

The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” Jesus said to them,* “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.”*
John 6, 52-54

“Whoever eats the bread and drinks the cup unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord.”
1 Corinthians 11, 27

“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they profess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ.”
Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyraeans, 7, 1 (c.A.D. 110)

Are you saying that the only ones in a position to question the veracity of the assumption are those inside the church? I would have to disagree with that because those inside the church probably would not consider questioning this doctrine under pain of mortal sin. I labor under no such condemnation…

At least you finally concur that you are outside the Church.

To be continued…

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Job 21:32 Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Psa 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise [and] praise thee? Selah.

Here are a few scriptures that deal with the state of the dead. They tell us that man does not go to heaven when he dies, but he goes into the grave. You are right that Moses and Elijah were taken to heaven. There is also Enoch. Gen5:24And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. And the souls that were raised after Jesus resurrection. But for the rest the bible is quite clear. The new testament calls death a sleep something like 54 times. Jesus himself calls death sleep.

John11:11These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

In the garden of Eden God said Gen2:16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Satan said Gen3:4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Eve beleived Satan instead of God and man has been beleiving Satan’s lie ever since.

I don’t know about you but I choose to beleive God.

None of that takes the Resurrection of Christ into account - events before it, couldn’t. Not unnaturally. But He does make a bit of difference.​

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Tell me where you find “personal savior” in the Bible.

Where do you find the formula “accept Christ” in the Bible?

Where are altar calls, invitation hymns, and revivals in the Bible?

Where do you find Joe di Maggio in the Bible ?​

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Richard,
i like your style. all i have to do is read scripture and that’s it! there is no other authority than me. whatever conclusion that i come to must come from the Holy Spirit. that means the Holy Spirit rests with me and doesn’t guide me in error. if it just so happens that i don’t come to the same conclusions than others, it has to mean that i am right and everyone else is wrong. i did read the bible!
you are helping a lot. you helped me realize that the Church that Christ started failed and turned to heresy. thank goodness for the reformation or the Body of Christ may still be one!

regards,
occupant

Oh, I get it you are being facetious right? No reading the scriptures is not all there is to it. What you must do first and foremost is accept Jesus Christ as not only your savior, but make Him the Lord of your life. When you do that, He is faithful and true to His word.
John14:15If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

It is true that the Holy Spirit will never guide you into error.

if it just so happens that i don’t come to the same conclusions than others, it has to mean that i am right and everyone else is wrong. i did read the bible!

If I am following the Spirit’s lead that is exactly right. The Spirit of God and me make a majority.

The church that Christ started has not failed, but it took some pretty hard liks from the Catholic church.

The Reformation is a work in progress most Protestant churches are still teaching a lot of unbiblical nonsense. The body of Christ is still one many in it are even Catholic.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Where are her bones? Why do the Othodox and Catholics not have them as they have all the rest?

What a strange question. I’m assuming they are in her grave. You know I never did understand the Catholic churches necrophilia.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I don’t beleive Christ founded the Catholic church the way it is today. To much heresy.

Ya, He is talking about His church. not the Catholic church.

This is what I am talking about. Paul never sets up the office of bishop as one to be followed and certainly not to be reverenced. He is to be a servant of the body of Christ. By the way 1Tim3 says that a bishop must be married.

These are some rather arrogant statements. Let’ take them one at a time. You have me at a disadvantage. I’m afraid that I don’t know who this Ignatius is, but I seriously doubt that he was a disciple of John’s, if as you say he taught that Christ was present in the eucharist. If he was he must have splintered away from the true church because John never taught this kind of blasphemy.

Are you saying that the only ones in a position to question the veracity of the assumption are those inside the church. I would have to disagree with that because those inside the church probably would not consider questioning this doctrine under pain of mortal sin. I labor under no such condemnation, therefore that makes me and those outside of the church uniquely qualified to do so.

Well, if you mean anti-catholic dogmas. I again would have to disagree The bible not only gives me the authority but the responsibility to speak up against anti-biblical teachings However I agree that we cannot do this on our own we must do everything in conjunction with the Spirit of God. 1Cor2:12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

This is probably the must unbeleivably arrogant thing I have ever seen posted on this forum and I have seen some beauts. To say that the God who created the universe would be encumbered by the so-called magesterial authority of the Catholic church to give His word to His Curch is mind bogaling.

How could we be more arrogant than Jesus, who presumed to forgive sins - a thing that, as His critics pointed out, God alone could do ? Catholics are “arrogant” because He was. How is it any more arrogant to say “This is the Church of God” than to say, “This Jesus, Whom God raised up, is Lord & Messiah & Saviour ?”​

BTW, the magisterial authority of the CC is the very same authority as that with which Jesus taught. So far is He from being dead, that He teaches even now. So if He, rather than Pius XII, had defined the Assumption, it would have been no truer, no more authoritative: because the authority by which Pius XII defined it was the authority of Christ. How can Christ’s authority be divided against Christ’s authority ?

I’m not sure what your point is in all this. So i’ll just let it be.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

What do you mean by “cutting yourself severely short.” Jesus said in John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. If I can find eternal life by searching the scriptures that testify of Jesus what else matters.

Another equally possible translation, which in the context is perhaps preferable, is “You (plural) search the scriptures…” Which changes the meaning entirely.​