The Assumption

[pocohombre]

pocohombre;11257782:

rinnie;11246696:

Huh? Funny you can accept that Angels hear our prayers but the Saints can’t.

Angels are not the same as humans,even saints. Angels “present” our prayers in Revelations. Is it like the mailman presenting mail, or do they open up the mail, and decide who gets it ? Is the angel simply "reminding " the Lord what he already knows (our prayers), a “push” for divine judgement on the earth ?

When Angels are also indicated Saints by the Bible. Saints/ Holy Ones as (qaddish) in hebrew as writen in the book of Daniel.

Are you saying angels and deceased saints are same in this word ? Kaddish is a prayer to God if even in remembrance of our deceased loved ones.

Besides the fact that Apostolic Tradition teaches this, the bible confirms it.

Yes, you have expressed yourself very well and it is a huge tradition. Yet it is contested.

Book of Psalm we sing to those on the Heavenly court and exhort them. 103: 20-21 (scripture you seem to deny)

David also exhorts “all his works in all places” to “bless the Lord” . Can “all his works” hear us, do we talk to “his works”? Yes he exhorts the angels to bless the Lord. I have no doubt angels are with us and hear us and are are His ministers to us also. Can not say that about the saints in heaven, that they are invisibly right next to us and hear us and minister to us directly .

Rev. Also says 24 elders presenting our prayers. The 24 elders represent the hieracy of the People of God in heaven. And they are shown presenting our prayers under a symbol of Incense.

Yes, and from that we pray to the heirarchy? They present prayers offered up to God, just like the saints in heaven present their prayer(s) to God, and in specific ,to “move” upon the earth in judgement. Tell me do you think the prayer in these vials are from St. Christopher for safe passage or to St. Blaise throat protection etc etc ? Those are very important, respected prayers for Catholics but don’t think that is what is going on here in Revelations, where every believer on earth is being hunted and killed in the great tribulation. Context,context. Again, I am not saying the elders ( or even saints) do not know the contents of the vials of prayer, but don’t think the prayers were directed to them or any other saint,as in “Dear elder,or dear saint, please help me with…”. I believe the prayers were directed towards God, as is every prayer in scripture is.

We know that the Saints whether human saints or angel saints are aware of our prayers based on that scripture.

Yes, bears repeating . Awareness is not the big issue, but to whom they are directed. Do we talk to saints or do we talk to God ?

You seem to deny that Abraham and the other Saints hear our prayers although scripture tells you. After the Ascenstion Christ took that O.T. Saints from Sheol to heaven. 5:8 ( I believe you could indeed include Father Abraham as one of these).

.Again no one prayed to Abraham in OT or NT when he was inSheol/ hades(paradise) or heaven.

So if you continue to deny scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium that all agree on this there is not more I can say.

You have given no scripture that shows us talking to saints in heaven. And to be a strict legalist, I’ll stick with a Barnabus quote, " To those who are knowledgeable of the Lord’s commandments,keep them, as many as are written"…Thanks for the dialogue.

 

[rinnie]

rinnie;11266649:

pocohombre;11257782:

Angels are not the same as humans,even saints. Angels “present” our prayers in Revelations. Is it like the mailman presenting mail, or do they open up the mail, and decide who gets it ? Is the angel simply "reminding " the Lord what he already knows (our prayers), a “push” for divine judgement on the earth ? Are you saying angels and deceased saints are same in this word ? Kaddish is a prayer to

God if even in remembrance of our deceased loved ones.
Yes, you have expressed yourself very well and it is a huge tradition. Yet it is contested.
David also exhorts “all his works in all places” to “bless the Lord” . Can “all his works” hear us, do we talk to “his works”? Yes he exhorts the angels to bless the Lord. I have no doubt angels are with us and hear us and are are His ministers to us also. Can not say that about the saints in heaven, that they are invisibly right next to us and hear us and minister to us directly .

Yes, and from that we pray to the heirarchy? They present prayers offered up to God, just like the saints in heaven present their prayer(s) to God, and in specific ,to “move” upon the earth in judgement. Tell me do you think the prayer in these vials are from St. Christopher for safe passage or to St. Blaise throat protection etc etc ? Those are very important, respected prayers for Catholics but don’t think that is what is going on here in Revelations, where every believer on earth is being hunted and killed in the great tribulation. Context,context. Again, I am not saying the elders ( or even saints) do not know the contents of the vials of prayer, but don’t think the prayers were directed to them or any other saint,as in “Dear elder,or dear saint, please help me with…”. I believe the prayers were directed towards God, as is every prayer in scripture is.
Yes, bears repeating . Awareness is not the big issue, but to whom they are directed. Do we talk to saints or do we talk to God ?
.Again no one prayed to Abraham in OT or NT when he was inSheol/ hades(paradise) or heaven.
You have given no scripture that shows us talking to saints in heaven. And to be a strict legalist, I’ll stick with a Barnabus quote, " To those who are knowledgeable of the Lord’s commandments,keep them, as many as are written"…Thanks for the dialogue.

You asked me to show you proof that the angels and saints hear our prayers. Where did you ask for proof that shows us talking to Saints??

The greek word for angelos is messenger.

The book of Rev says the elders of the 7 Church of Asia were called Angels.

Was the Church of Ephesus led by human elders or not? You wanted proof that Angels and Saints were the same meaning. I showed you where the Church gave scriptual proof.

Malachi himself said a Priest was a messenger of the Lord of Host.

So if Angel means messenger and Priest means messenger. There you have the proof in the bible that there are heavenly Angels and Heavenly Saints.

Saints and Angels are considered Holy as I stated. The Priest was a messenger of the Lord which is the same as a Saint and Angel.

 

[pocohombre]

You asked me to show you proof that the angels and saints hear our prayers. Where did you ask for proof that shows us talking to Saints??

I think this all began with praying to Mary, or saints, and how do they hear you ? We then differentiated between Mary or saints knowing what we prayed when it was directed toward God. I have been saying there is no instance in the bible where we on earth speak to those in heaven or Abraham’s bosom before the resurrection other than to God himself.

The greek word for angelos is messenger.

Yes,but other scriptures somehow distinguish between the two. That is every time you see messenger it may not mean an angelic being. But some do interpret this to be human elders as you have suggested ,as some take it to mean literal angels who minister to the churches.

The book of Rev says the elders of the 7 Church of Asia were called Angels.

Again, just one interpretation. We do believe in angels don’t we ? John was in heaven wasn’t he, where there are a lot of angels that you can see ?

 

[rinnie]

I think this all began with praying to Mary, or saints, and how do they hear you ? We then differentiated between Mary or saints knowing what we prayed when it was directed toward God. I have been saying there is no instance in the bible where we on earth speak to those in heaven or Abraham’s bosom before the resurrection other than to God himself.

Yes,but other scriptures somehow distinguish between the two. That is every time you see messenger it may not mean an angelic being. But some do interpret this to be human elders as you have suggested ,as some take it to mean literal angels who minister to the churches.

Again, just one interpretation. We do believe in angels don’t we ? John was in heaven wasn’t he, where there are a lot of angels that you can see ?

Not just one interpretation, it is how the Apostles taught it. Its not mine.

Help me out on this. In Hebrews 11:1-22 12:1 Since we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses (which if you read all that scripture in the correct context it is given the cloud of witness is our martyrs and heroes of the faith from the ages past), if they surround us, know about us, and can see our struggles from heaven what makes you think they can’t hear us???

The Ecumenical Council comfirms this, it is endorsed this is a certaintly of faith that has been revealed to us by God.

James 5;16-18 Tells us prayers of a good man has powerful effects. What Soul has advanced more holy then the soul perfected in heaven??

This is what the Apostles taught us either by word of mouth or writings.

Now you continue to say this is just one interpretation, okay, I will give you that.

But what makes you feel your interpretation, and by the way could you give me you interpretation of all of the scripture that I quoted, is correct, and the Apostles and the Early fathers of the Church are incorrect?

Do you have the gift of the Holy Spirit to interpret scripture. The Apostles did. And this is what they taught.

So can you give me evidence of it not being what they taught, that this is not what they interpretated, and how they are wrong and you are right. Thanks.

 

[rinnie]

But you also asked me how humams are angels. I gave you the scripture how some angels are human and some not.

It does appear that you indeed agree with the church teaching on that though. Am I correct to assume?