The Assumption

[rinnie]

pocohombre;11245547:

Is the rich man in purgatory? In hell, there is no compassion…is there?

Of all of the parables, I have argued this one for months on end and have come to find out I was wrong.:sad_yes:

I guess the question truly is can a person reject God and still be a compassionate person, The answer would have to be yes.

The scripture tells us the rich man was in sheol (a pit where no one can reascend.

So the way I take this is we can have compassion, be kind, be a pretty good person in general really. But if we reject God and refuse to repent and honor and believe in him we just aren’t saved.

Anotherwards sometimes being compassionate and having love for someone isn’t going to get us into heaven. And save us from hell.

Trust me, being wrong on this parable has really humbled me.

 

[rinnie]

Some doctrines are explicitly stated in the Bible. “The bread which I shall give is my flesh” is clear on the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

Others, like purgatory or the perpetual virginity of Mary, are understood after considering the implications of what has been revealed.

Let’s look at what we know about praying to the saints.

The Saints Can Hear Our Prayers Proved From Scripture

1. Jesus teaches from the Old Testament

“Have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!” (Mark 12:26-27)

In this teaching, Jesus tells us plainly that the Father is the God of the living.

2. Speaking with the “Dead” - Jesus teaches by parable

"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”(Luke 16:19-31)

In this parable, Jesus has two of the “dead” characters in his story talking with one another, and one of the “dead” men intercedes on behalf of his living relatives.

3. Speaking with the “Dead” - Jesus teaches by personal example

“After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.” (Matthew 17:1-3)

At the transfiguration, Jesus was talking with two “dead” people, Moses and Elijah. They’re actually alive, though. Of course, as God, Jesus did not need to speak face to face with Moses and Elijah, but because Jesus was also fully human, it makes sense that they would appear to him in a way that his human senses could understand.

4. Speaking to the dead – Peter teaches by example

“Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, “Tabitha, get up.” She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up. He took her by the hand and helped her to her feet. Then he called the believers and the widows and presented her to them alive.” (Acts 9:40-41)

5. Those in Heaven Hear Our Prayers - John teaches through prophetic revelation

“He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” (Revelation 5:7-8)

The 24 elders in heaven are men, and notice that they each have a golden bowl full of the prayers of the saints. That’s us since we’re all saints! So, how did they get hold of our prayers in order to offer them to God?

“Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne.” (Revelation 8:3)

Here, an angel also offers our prayers along with incense.

+++

From these examples and the constant teaching of the Catholic Church, we can be confident that the saints are aware of what is happening on earth, that they hear our prayers addressed to them, and that they intercede before the Father on our behalf.

Truly there is not much more one can say. You either accept the word of God or reject I guess.

If I were a protestant I would personally LOVE to be wrong on this one, It would not make me feel sad I did not fully understand the teaching, it would make me feel great knowing there are Saints and loved ones pulling for me.

To me it is truly a win win situation for all.

 

[rinnie]

Randy a tad off the subject but could Job have been considered a Saint. A living one.

Because the reason I say this is 2 things.

1. He was considered righteous before God.
2. God told his friends to ask Job to pray for them, because the prayers of Job he accepted.

Now I am not speaking of original sin, because at that time Jesus did not come yet. But original sin is what keeps throwing me.

 

[Randy_Carson]

and this:

The Bible Supports Praying to the Saints
By Mitchell Pacwa, S.J.
catholic.com/thisrock/1990/9007chap.asp

First, God expects us to pray for one another. We see this in both the Old and New Testaments.

In a dream, God commanded King Abimelech to ask Abraham to intercede for him: “For [Abraham] is a prophet and he will pray for you, so you shall live” (Gen. 20:7). When the Lord is angry with Job’s friends because they did not speak rightly about God, he tells them, “Let my servant Job pray for you because I will accept his [prayer], lest I make a terror on you” (Job 42:8).

Paul wrote to the Romans: “I exhort you, brothers, through our Lord Jesus Christ and through the love of the Spirit, to strive with me in prayers to God on my behalf, that I may be delivered from the disobedient in Judaea and that my ministry may be acceptable to the saints in Jerusalem, so that in the joy coming to you through the will of God I may rest with you” (Rom. 15:30-32).

James says: “Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (James 5:16-17). Thus, according to Scripture, God wants us to pray for one another. This must mean that prayer for one another cannot detract from the role of Jesus Christ as our one mediator with God.

Second, the reason that Christians have the power to pray for one another is that each person who is baptized is made a member of the Body of Christ by virtue of the Holy Spirit’s action in baptism (1 Cor. 12:11-13). It is because the Christian belongs to Jesus Christ and is a member of his Body, the Church, that we can make effective prayer.

The reason we pray to the saints is that they are still members of the Body of Christ. Remember, the life which Christ gives is eternal life; therefore, every Christian who has died in Christ is forever a member of the Body of Christ. This is the doctrine which we call the Communion of the Saints. Everyone in Christ, whether living or dead, belongs to the Body of Christ.

From this it follows that a saint in heaven may intercede for other people because he still is a member of the Body of Christ. Because of this membership in Christ, under his headship, the intercession of the saints cannot be a rival to Christ’s mediation; it is one with the mediation of Christ, to whom and in whom the saints form one body.

Some Christians–most Protestants, in fact–deny that the Bible gives support for devotion to the saints, but they are incorrect. The Bible encourages Christians to approach the saints in heaven, just as they approach God the Father and Jesus Christ the Lord: “But you have approached Mount Zion, the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels, and the assembly and church of the firstborn who have been enrolled in heaven, and God the judge of all, and spirits of righteous ones who have been made perfect, and Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood which speaks better than that of Abel” (Heb. 12:22-24).

It is clear the Christian has approached a number of heavenly beings: the heavenly Jerusalem, the angels, God the judge, and Jesus the mediator. “The assembly and church of the firstborn who have been enrolled in heaven” and the phrase “spirits of righteous ones who have been made perfect” can refer only to the saints in heaven.

First, they are spirits, not flesh and blood. Second, they are righteous people, presumably made righteous by Jesus Christ, “who is our righteousness.” Third, they have been made perfect. The only place where spirits of perfected righteous people can dwell is heaven.

Furthermore, “spirits of righteous ones who have been made perfect” is a perfect definition of the saints in heaven. This passage is saying that, just as Christians approach the angels, God the judge, Jesus Christ, and his saving blood, so also must we approach the saints in heaven.

Does the Bible say we should approach the saints with our prayers? Yes, in two places. In Revelation 5:8 John saw the Lamb, Christ Jesus, on a throne in the midst of four beasts and 24 elders. When the Lamb took the book with the seven seals, the 24 elders fell down before the Lamb in worship, “each one having a harp and golden bowls of incenses, which are the prayers of the saints.”

Similarly, in Revelation 8:3-4 we are told that something similar happened when the Lamb opened the seventh seal of the book: “Another angel came and stood on the altar, having a golden censer, and many incenses were given to him, in order that he will give it with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne. And the smoke of the incenses went up with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.”

These texts give us a way to understand how the saints offer our prayers for us. Our prayers are like nuggets of incense. They smell sweet and good. The 24 elders around the throne, who are saints, and the angels offer these nuggets of incense for us. They set them on fire before the throne of God.

This is a beautiful image of how the intercession of the saints works. Because the saints are so close to the fire of God’s love and because they stand immediately before him, they can set our prayers on fire with their love and release the power of our prayers.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

This is the Visitation of Mary rather than the Assumption.

 

[SteveVH]

Thanks. I always thought there had to be verifiable miracles while they were alive. Are you saying one after death counts, like a relic or cloth or by name invocation ? There are biblical examples or signs for verifying the message /messenger (healings from Paul’s cloth’s ?). I see that as praying to God invoking saint which is different than talking to saint directly with petition.
Blessings.

Actually, miracles performed while on earth don’t count. The fact that one was capable of miracles while on earth, while probably a good indication, is not an assurance that they made it to heaven. A minimum of two verifiable miracles, after one has passed, are required in most circumstances. The Pope has the authority to override that requirement, but it is used most of the time.

 

[SteveVH]

Randy a tad off the subject but could Job have been considered a Saint. A living one.

Because the reason I say this is 2 things.

1. He was considered righteous before God.
2. God told his friends to ask Job to pray for them, because the prayers of Job he accepted.

Now I am not speaking of original sin, because at that time Jesus did not come yet. But original sin is what keeps throwing me.

More than likely, Job was not even a real person. In any event, we cannot make a judgment as to whether or not one is heaven until they let us know they are in heaven. That is the real definition of a saint. If we make it to heaven, we will be saints as well.

 

[rinnie]

More than likely, Job was not even a real person. In any event, we cannot make a judgment as to whether or not one is heaven until they let us know they are in heaven. That is the real definition of a saint. If we make it to heaven, we will be saints as well.

While I agree with you we can’t pass judgement. I believe God did. He told the devil look at my servant Job he is righteous. He knew before Job passed the test that he would.

But my question was not if he was in heaven, my question is was he considered a Saint here on this earth. If of course he really existed.

And I believe he does today in certain people in this world, They may be Davids, or Joes etc or Marys or Megs etc. But it has to be possible because God calls us to be Saints.

Even wrote a book on how to achieve it

But lets say for the sake of arguing he did exist. Would he not be our perfect example of a living Saint here on earth.

Thats probally how I should have asked the question.

 

[concretecamper]

This is the Visitation of Mary rather than the Assumption.

The first joyful mystery…awesome!

 

[rinnie]

The first joyful mystery…awesome!

Amen!

 

[pocohombre]

pocohombre;11242648:

rinnie;11240088:

In Rev, prayers of the Saints under the from of incense as told to us by St John,

I am kind of at a loss of what you are asking. I mean if the Saints did not hear our prayers how could they be offering them up to God?

Again in Rev 5:8 it tells us the prayers of the Saints being offered up to God.

Maybe I am misunderstanding the question. I do that at times

Maybe you could ask it another way.

Revelations tells us what we already know in that our prayers go before God. The question is are they prayers directed to God in the first place, or are they directed towards heavenly saints who then put them before God (whom do you pray/talk to ?) It is an angel and the twenty four elders who seem to present to God at this time (apparently end times) our prayers. I suppose you could direct your prayers to the angel, or the twenty four elders, but there is no indication that Abraham, or Mary or any other saint present prayers in this revelation scene. Remember also that the Revelations may be referring to specific prayers for the church at that time, as in come quickly Lord, for that is exactly what is about to happen.
Again the question is not whether God hears our prayers, but should you pray to Mary or Abraham or any deceased saint,and if you do, how do they hear you ? Are they all hearing like God ?

 

[pocohombre]

Actually, miracles performed while on earth don’t count. The fact that one was capable of miracles while on earth, while probably a good indication, is not an assurance that they made it to heaven. A minimum of two verifiable miracles, after one has passed, are required in most circumstances. The Pope has the authority to override that requirement, but it is used most of the time.

Thank you

 

[pocohombre]

Truly there is not much more one can say. You either accept the word of God or reject I guess.

If I were a protestant I would personally LOVE to be wrong on this one, It would not make me feel sad I did not fully understand the teaching, it would make me feel great knowing there are Saints and loved ones pulling for me.

To me it is truly a win win situation for all.

Thanks very thorough, take each point at face value, however not one of your scriptural evidences deal with your final deduction :" that they hear our prayers addressed to them," I don’t know of any scripture where a saint (believer) prays, talks, petitions a saint in heaven or Abraham’s Bosom (BC).

 

[pocohombre]

More than likely, Job was not even a real person. In any event, we cannot make a judgment as to whether or not one is heaven until they let us know they are in heaven. That is the real definition of a saint. If we make it to heaven, we will be saints as well.

Would you agree in a broader definition of “saint” per hebrew, greek ,OT and NT that a true believer is a “saint” while living on earth also ?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Thanks very thorough, take each point at face value, however not one of your scriptural evidences deal with your final deduction :" that they hear our prayers addressed to them," I don’t know of any scripture where a saint (believer) prays, talks, petitions a saint in heaven or Abraham’s Bosom (BC).

Hmmm…do we have a lot of prayers to Jesus in the scriptures? I can think of two specifically.

You are making an argument from silence…not the best approach. Just because the Bible is silent on a subject, we cannot conclude that it is prohibited.

In actual practice, there are many examples of the earliest Christians praying to saints. These prayers are found in extant writings from the first and second centuries as well as in inscriptions on tombs and gravestones.

So, although the Bible does not command or encourage us to pray to saints explicitly, we know that those who received the gospel orally from the apostles and their successors, the Bishops, in the first century of the Church WERE praying to saints, and there do not appear to be any early writings condemning the practice.

 

[pocohombre]

Hmmm…do we have a lot of prayers to Jesus in the scriptures? I can think of two specifically.

Two is enough and it does say He will sup with us and many more scriptures that allude to “relationship”, where you can “talk”. Also prayers to the Father, Jehovah are there ( in bible) by the thousands.

You are making an argument from silence…not the best approach. Just because the Bible is silent on a subject, we cannot conclude that it is prohibited.

Not an expert, but pretty sure talking to “deceased” (even saints) is somewhat prohibited in OT.But thank you for admitting there is no example of it in bible.

In actual practice, there are many examples of the earliest Christians praying to saints. These prayers are found in extant writings from the first and second centuries as well as in inscriptions on tombs and gravestones.

That praying to saints developed I do not doubt. That it was in the church during apostles times I doubt.Have not read any first, even first half of second century church father writing about praying to saints. Even so the early church did some things that were corrected by epistles and later even by the church. So just cause they did what you say it still may have been wrong (for surely other things were,however minor). We do know it is definitely a pagan practice, to pray to many “gods”/spirits, and myth heroes etc, some even had one for every day. Who is to say this crept into the church, but in a christian way ? Some do say that, though I do not use it as evidence here.Scripture and history is enough (first century history).

 

[Randy_Carson]

Two is enough and it does say He will sup with us and many more scriptures that allude to “relationship”, where you can “talk”. Also prayers to the Father, Jehovah are there ( in bible) by the thousands.

Right. So, there aren’t a lot of examples of prayers TO Jesus. Thank you.

Not an expert, but pretty sure talking to “deceased” (even saints) is somewhat prohibited in OT.But thank you for admitting there is no example of it in bible.

Incorrect regarding the OT prohibition. Irrelevant that prayer to saints in heaven is not explicitly taught in the NT. There are many doctrines which you accept as a Christian which are not explicitly taught therein.

That praying to saints developed I do not doubt. That it was in the church during apostles times I doubt.Have not read any first, even first half of second century church father writing about praying to saints. Even so the early church did some things that were corrected by epistles and later even by the church. So just cause they did what you say it still may have been wrong (for surely other things were,however minor). We do know it is definitely a pagan practice, to pray to many “gods”/spirits, and myth heroes etc, some even had one for every day. Who is to say this crept into the church, but in a christian way ? Some do say that, though I do not use it as evidence here.Scripture and history is enough (first century history).

Corrected by the epistles? Ah, then could you please cite a passage where Paul or another NT author gives specific admonitions or instructions against speaking to a believer who is now in heaven and alive in Christ? No? No.

See, the problem here is that praying to saints is not part of your faith tradition, and you’re uncomfortable with it because you equate prayer with worship, and worship is due to God alone. But in fact, not all prayer is worship, and not all prayer has to be directed to God. There is nothing wrong with me asking you to pray for me and there is nothing wrong with me asking St. Francis to pray for me. Actually, St. Jude might be more appropriate. (That’s a Catholic joke.)

So, because your tradition teaches that praying to anyone but God is wrong - even though you cannot point to anything in Sacred Scripture that supports your view - you reject the idea and conclude that the Catholic Church is teaching a false gospel.

 

[Anglo_Trad]

We took a last minute trip to Cape May attended the 11 AM mass at none other than Our Lady Star of the Sea. It was standing room only and I was moved to tears of gladness that so many people came to honor Our Lady. The readings and gospel were filled with so many theological truths that it got me wondering. Where did the protestant movement lose sight of Our Lady. Luther in particular had a deep reverence for Mary. But today, it seems all protestants consider Mary as a foot note. Where in history did this change? Are all denominations similar in their view of Mary? I am not trying to pick an argument, I just wonder what happened?

I think Catholics would consider me to be a protestant because I belong to the Church of England. If I am a protestant the statement that protestants have lost sight of Mary is false. In my parish church we have a Lady Chapel - a side chapel dedicated to the honour of the Blessed Virgin Mary. There are two statues of Our Lady in our parish church plus an icon of Her too. We celebrate all the major marian feasts with Solemn Mass. There is weekly recitation of the Rosary every Tuesday evening.

 

[pocohombre]

Right. So, there aren’t a lot of examples of prayers TO Jesus. Thank you.

Perhaps my negativity is lending to “legalism” as if praying to Jesus may not have strong scriptural foundation either because of only two examples. Except I pointed out there are more examples that we can "talk to Him in scripture, and thousands speaking to God

Corrected by the epistles? Ah, then could you please cite a passage where Paul or another NT author gives specific admonitions or instructions against speaking to a believer who is now in heaven and alive in Christ? No? No.

Understand, and silence is nothing,though I would suggest a half a point of evidence in that it was not "corrected " cause it wasn’t happening.

See, the problem here is that praying to saints is not part of your faith tradition, and you’re uncomfortable with it because you equate prayer with worship, and worship is due to God alone. But in fact, not all prayer is worship, and not all prayer has to be directed to God. There is nothing wrong with me asking you to pray for me and there is nothing wrong with me asking St. Francis to pray for me. Actually, St. Jude might be more appropriate. (That’s a Catholic joke.)

I do not equate “talking” to someone as worship. All “talking” have levels of “appropriateness”. I am sure you felt uncomfortable at times with inappropriate talk. Also there is difference between believers talking to others still on earth, from talking to believers in Heaven.

that praying to anyone but God is wrong – you reject the idea and conclude that the Catholic Church is teaching a false gospel.

Wow, where did that come from ? This has nothing to do with defining what the gospel is. Sorry if I went to far.

 

[rinnie]

rinnie;11246696:

pocohombre;11242648:

Revelations tells us what we already know in that our prayers go before God. The question is are they prayers directed to God in the first place, or are they directed towards heavenly saints who then put them before God (whom do you pray/talk to ?) It is an angel and the twenty four elders who seem to present to God at this time (apparently end times) our prayers. I suppose you could direct your prayers to the angel, or the twenty four elders, but there is no indication that Abraham, or Mary or any other saint present prayers in this revelation scene. Remember also that the Revelations may be referring to specific prayers for the church at that time, as in come quickly Lord, for that is exactly what is about to happen.
Again the question is not whether God hears our prayers, but should you pray to Mary or Abraham or any deceased saint,and if you do, how do they hear you ? Are they all hearing like God ?

Huh? Funny you can accept that Angels hear our prayers but the Saints can’t. When Angels are also indicated Saints by the Bible. Saints/ Holy Ones as (qaddish) in hebrew as writen in the book of Daniel.

Besides the fact that Apostolic Tradition teaches this, the bible confirms it.

Book of Psalm we sing to those on the Heavely court and exhort them. 103: 20-21 (scripture you seem to deny)

Now if they don’t hear our prayers as Rev, tells us how do they present them to God? How could prayers possibly be presented you deny they hear them??

Rev. Also says 24 elders presenting our prayers. The 24 elders represent the hieracy of the People of God in heaven. And they are shown presenting our prayers under a symbol of Incense.

We know that the Saints whether human saints or angel saints are aware of our prayers based on that scripture.

You seem to deny that Abraham and the other Saints hear our prayers although scripture tells you.

After the Ascenstion Christ took that O.T. Saints from Sheol to heaven. 5:8 ( I believe you could indeed include Father Abraham as one of these).

So if you continue to deny scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium that all agree on this there is not more I can say.