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concretecamper
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Praying directly to Jesus is absolutely needed. I do not think anyone stated otherwise. The point is, having other praying for you is also beneficial.
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pocohombre
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Yeah, I know ,hence i posted earlier, “We can certainly approach the throne, we are seated in heavenly places, so I suppose we can be two dimensional but only by His Spirit and power.”…I might add our bodies ,which have hearing, do not . Why did the old testament prohibit communicating to deceased saints, or anyone deceased ? It certainly did not prohibit communicating with God, who is all dimensional.
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Porknpie
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Poco -
Tract on intercession of the saints is here. We can see in the Book of Revelation the saints praying for us. It’s through God’s power that they know our prayers, even those not spoken. If God can know our hearts…so can the saints, through his power.
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pocohombre
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Yes, we agree on much. If there is a time for everything,then there could be a wrong time for everything. There can be a wrong time for direct petition and a wrong time for indirect petition. What is the purpose of prayer ? Does God need it ? Who gets “aligned” with prayer ? Are the saints in heaven in need of further alignment and still need to pray, even for us?
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pocohombre
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Thank you .Are the saints in Rev. praying for remaining saints on earth or are they praying for justice, for their own spilled blood ? (too tired to look it up)…Is there anything in Catechism or teaching that says God empowers heavenly saints or Mary to “hear” us ?
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Porknpie
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Poco, yes read par 945 to 975
Tired too…thunder woke me up a 4:30am…
And I can hear Pie snoring already.
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rinnie
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One time Father addressed it like this.
You can go to court alone or you can have an attorney there to defend you.
When Catholic’s have the Blessed Mother or the Saints pray for them it is like having many attorney’s present with you on your court date.
So you seem to be the one saying having an attorney is great but I truly don’t need one. I can go at it alone.
As my kids say, good luck with that.
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rinnie
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I think you hit the nail on the head. Why do people think when we ask others to pray for us we feel we don’t need to pray at all?
Kinda like what I said about going to court. Its like forget court let the attorneys go for you.
Which is not what is being said here at all.
Just because we ask the Blessed Mother or St Jude or both to accompany us in prayer and also pray for our intention in no way says we are off the hook to pray at all.
Where do people get this from?
What people do not seem to understand is we don’t just Ask the Saints and the Blessed Mother to pray for us, we ask them to JOIN in our prayers. Why?
Because we you pray for someone else other then oneself God see’s these as very powerful prayers. He likes to see this.
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rinnie
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Also another reason to ask for intercession is this.
How many times have we been in a place where a loved one is dying. You beg God to spare them, but yet you are asking him to take them.
What is best for them what you want? Or what God knows is best for them.
The Saints know what to help us to pray for, and while praying for the right thing, they are also keeping prayers for us in mind to accept what is to come.
How many times have we been in a place where a loved one is dying. You beg God to spare them, but yet you are asking him to take them.
What is best for them what you want? Or what God knows is best for them.
The Saints know what to help us to pray for, and while praying for the right thing, they are also keeping prayers for us in mind to accept what is to come.
Well, rinnie, Christ set the example on how to pray, in the Garden. “… not my will, but yours be done.”
One can have confidence that the saints pray for us unceasingly, even without our requests for intercession. Knowing this, and asking God to hear their prayers, takes away all doubt of whether or not they hear us .
Jon
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Randy_Carson
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John did not write his Gospel until around AD 95, and he may have been 80 or so.Is there a near enough date for the Assumption of May the Virgin -she must have been 46 or so near the Crucifixion -that would be quite old for the time
Also where is the information of the Blessed Virgin being in Ephesus? -only because St. John was there?
Yes, John took Mary into his home because she had no other children to care for her and Joseph had died some years earlier.
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pocohombre
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Was not Jesus a man also ? It is disengenuous to say a protestant goes it alone because his attorney is "only Jesus and not a saint. Our mediator is the one and only mediator, the Lord Jesus. All else are petitions, that ultimately go to Him. Does the number or quality of petitions change the facts of a case? Yet I agree that the squeaky wheel gets the grease, for we are a “body”. It is just a question of saints in heaven needing any more sanctification thru answered prayer, as we do need it down here. It is for His glory, and the need for us to see it that prayers are answered. Do saints in heaven, who see Him face to face, need to see more ?
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pocohombre
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Actually I think the prayers in the vials are from saints down in earth. To me a saint is a believer whether in heaven or on earth. The only time heavenly saints are directly mentioned “praying” in Rev. is when they are calling for justice, even vengeance for the wicked blood spillers down on earth, as in how long oh Lord before you set things right ? The only intercessor, or middle man mentioned is an angel and the twenty four elders. Do not see Mary or saints offering them before the throne. Furthermore, the context is the great tribulation when all Christians will be killed and the prayers seem to be about a need for action on part of the Lord. Not sure it is in the same class of prayer as a for healing for Aunt Betty or for a spouse for Sue or Mike etc. Any biblical mention, or the first few church fathers listed in the article posted above of prayer and angels/saints is not to pray to them but that they are all pulling for God’s will to be done on earth also , as are our prayers should also call for this.
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pocohombre
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Who said Mary was in Ephesus ?Is there a near enough date for the Assumption of May the Virgin -she must have been 46 or so near the Crucifixion -that would be quite old for the time
Also where is the information of the Blessed Virgin being in Ephesus? -only because St. John was there?
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rinnie
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rinnie
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Huh? Where is it taught that when the Saints pray for us are doing it because they need more sanctification? What in the world are you talking about.
Where did the word of God say only we can pray for ourself, and the Saints prayers are ignored?
Where was it taught that prayers of others are not heard and do not work for us.
Where is it taught to only pray for ourself, the prayers we pray for one another is in vain? Because thats really what you are saying right.
By the way how can you get any higher in heaven then to be a Saint?
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Randy_Carson
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ufamtobie
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Pocohombre,
TRUE! Jesus Christ is the ONLY Mediator between God and Man, it says so in (1Tim 2:5) but each of us are mediators between our brothers and sister to Jesus christ. For example: Virgin Mary is Mediatrix / Mediator between Jesus Christ and Man. Just as Virgin Mary was Mediatrix / Mediator “Between” the wedding couple of Cana, and Her Son Jesus Christ.
1 Timothy 2: 1First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men,
2for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Poco, in Tim 2: 1-4 ) above St. Paul, urges us to mediate for one another “on behalf of all men”. St. Paul goes on to say: " **“This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”. **
1Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
Poco, 1Tim 2: 5 above Again, there is only One Mediator between God and Men, Period! However, St. Paul wants us to be mediators, praying for our Brothers and Sister between them and Jesus Christ. Yes, Jesus Christ is God, but yet there are three distinct persons in the Blessed Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. St. Paul, here shows the distinction, between the father and the Son.
1Tim 2:8Therefore I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and dissension.
Poco St. Paul above wants men in every “Place” to pray! Poco what does** “Every Place To PRAY”** mean to you? Well, in every place means, that St. Paul, wants even those who are in Heaven and those on earth to mediate between Jesus Christ and Man, not to God but to Jesus Christ, for there is only one mediator between God and man that is Jesus CHrist but there are countless of Saints in heaven and on earth who are mediators
Poco, Jesus Christ is the Only mediator between God and Man, PERIOD! But many are mediators “Between” Jesus Christ and Man. Amen
As St. Paul, “Desires all men to be saved and to come to the Knowledge of the truth”
Poco, this is why the Lord has brought you here to CAF to know the TRUTH!
Ufam Tobie
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KathleenGee
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Inclined in same way, Jharek.
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pocohombre
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Well thank you. Sorry if you thought I was saying we can not pray for one another. Mediate might be a special word that usually references the Lord, where intercede, pray, petition is what we do for ourselves and one another. Perhaps we are nitpicking . I did say in the post you responded to that we “petition” for another, and all goes to the Lord, so we agree. Where we disagree is inferring that there is intercommunication with saints in heaven and saints on earth in coordinating our petitions. After all, I am quite sure St. Paul’s letter was admonishing those here on earth to pray, intercede, give thanksgiving.
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