The Assumption

[dronald]

I don’t think Protestants see Mary as negative. Can someone point me to a Protestant Church that says, “Mary is a negative part of Christianity”?

If not, then I would hope Catholics understand that Protestants are intimidated by showing reverence to Mary. I’ve been attending a CC and it’s very hard for me to accept her the way Catholics do. I feel it’s too much for me, and I would rather just focus on Jesus.

NOW, remember that I’m not arguing, I’m not putting down the practice and I’m certainly not looking at Mary negatively. What I need you to do is understand that in our hearts it’s very hard to show anyone reverence except Christ.

Another example is if I do something wonderful, I thank Christ. I don’t say it’s any of my doing but rather God’s. Some Catholics may thank Mary and say that she prayed for you, but I only thank Christ. It just feels right to me. Even when I think of all that Mary has done (bearing our savior, etc) I thank Christ. I thank God for using her, the way I thank God for everything. All the glory goes to Him in everything, always. This is just how I feel.

 

[concretecamper]

I wonder if anyone would consider it OK to just focus on a particular member of you family? Part of salvation is becoming incorporated into God’s family.

That is why I said earlier that ignoring the Mother, and by extension ignoring the your family, leaves one with a legalistic view of salvation. Christ gave me His righteousness, I gave Him my sin…it is a done deal. What a sterile view of ALL that Christ accomplished.

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[pocohombre]

As one poster suggested that some protestants are more Christ centered. One could also ask when did Mary become a strong focal point for she was not as much in the epistles. Certainly the reformation put a relative halt to the increase of her veneration, and made a shift to bible/Christ/Holy Spirit focus, a shift in the pendelum. That is, we all revere the latter and Mary, just in varying degrees of focus/attention. I would also say the more the envelope is pushed to one side, the more others go the other way. For example, when her IC was announced, I am sure it was to the great joy of many Catholics. I am also sure it further strengthened or solidified those who already thought Catholics go to far with Mary, and the divide widened.

 

[pocohombre]

I wonder if anyone would consider it OK to just focus on a particular member of you family? Part of salvation is becoming incorporated into God’s family.

That is why I said earlier that ignoring the Mother, and by extension ignoring the your family, leaves one with a legalistic view of salvation. Christ gave me His righteousness, I gave Him my sin…it is a done deal. What a sterile view of ALL that Christ accomplished.

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Perhaps it might seem sterile, as how in heaven there will be no marriage between us, but…we ( and Mary) will be married to Christ.

 

[pocohombre]

I wonder if anyone would consider it OK to just focus on a particular member of you family? Part of salvation is becoming incorporated into God’s family.

That is why I said earlier that ignoring the Mother, and by extension ignoring the your family, leaves one with a legalistic view of salvation. Christ gave me His righteousness, I gave Him my sin…it is a done deal. What a sterile view of ALL that Christ accomplished.

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Is it OK to focus as much time on the mother-in-law vs the bridegroom ? Is it OK to focus as much time on her instead of the bridegroom’s vicar, or He whom Jesus gave us to carry us on to the reunion/wedding ?

 

[leanuss]

Just have a look at the this thread

 

[concretecamper]

pocohombre:

For example, when her IC was announced, I am sure it was to the great joy of many Catholics. I am also sure it further strengthened or solidified those who already thought Catholics go to far with Mary, and the divide widened.

I agree with your observation.

Christ did say He came with the sword…and that His teachings will divide.

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[concretecamper]

pocohombre:

Quote:

Originally Posted by concretecamper

I wonder if anyone would consider it OK to just focus on a particular member of you family? Part of salvation is becoming incorporated into God’s family.

That is why I said earlier that ignoring the Mother, and by extension ignoring the your family, leaves one with a legalistic view of salvation. Christ gave me His righteousness, I gave Him my sin…it is a done deal. What a sterile view of ALL that Christ accomplished.

Posted from Catholic.com App for Android

Is it OK to focus as much time on the mother-in-law vs the bridegroom ? Is it OK to focus as much time on her instead of the bridegroom’s vicar, or He whom Jesus gave us to carry us on to the reunion/wedding ?

I never said focus “as much” time on the mother in law. Christ should be the center of all devotion and God alone is adored.

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[concretecamper]

pocohombre:

Quote:

Originally Posted by concretecamper

I wonder if anyone would consider it OK to just focus on a particular member of you family? Part of salvation is becoming incorporated into God’s family.

That is why I said earlier that ignoring the Mother, and by extension ignoring the your family, leaves one with a legalistic view of salvation. Christ gave me His righteousness, I gave Him my sin…it is a done deal. What a sterile view of ALL that Christ accomplished.

Posted from Catholic.com App for Android

Perhaps it might seem sterile, as how in heaven there will be no marriage between us, but…we ( and Mary) will be married to Christ.

I pray that I am counted among the “we”.

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[pocohombre]

I never said focus “as much” time on the mother in law. Christ should be the center of all devotion and God alone is adored.

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Thank you but I am confused for there are devotions to Christ and there are devotions to the saints and devotions to Mary. They may be kingdom centered but not necessarily Christ centered, directed. Correct, you said some ignore the mother where I said some focus,with time, on her. What do you mean that some ignore her if it is not spending time, focusing on her, or as some said, giving her devotion ?

 

[concretecamper]

Thank you but I am confused for there are devotions to Christ and there are devotions to the saints and devotions to Mary. They may be kingdom centered but not necessarily Christ centered, directed. Correct, you said some ignore the mother where I said some focus,with time, on her. What do you mean that some ignore her if it is not spending time, focusing on her, or as some said, giving her devotion ?

We are part of God’s family. This is part of salvation…through baptism being adopted into God’s family. So we pray for one another. If you can pray for me…then why can’t Mary pray for me? Mary’s prayer to her Son is infinitely more effacasious than my prayer or your prayer.

And all devotion in the RCC is Christ centered. If you have heard or experienced otherwise, that is not the way it should be.

 

[pocohombre]

We are part of God’s family. This is part of salvation…through baptism being adopted into God’s family. So we pray for one another.

Amen. Plenty of scripture for that.

Well if you can pray for me…then why can’t Mary pray for me?

We may be in the same kingdom, same family but in different dimensions. One day both dimensions will be one (heaven and earth). We can certainly approach the throne, we are seated in heavenly places, so I suppose we can be two dimensional, but only by His Spirit and power. But I suppose the crux of the matter is communicating with those, other than an omniscient, omnipresent God, on the other side of this life. Don’t see any good precedent from biblical Jewish roots, only negative. I think the one time it is positive is very specific and shows the rarity of it. Peter wanted to stay there, build altars etc ,at the Transfiguration. That the children of God, His family, did not have altars or statues or devotions to Abraham, Daniel, Moses, David, Solomon Elijah,etc etc. speaks loudly. The most you have is proper veneration. remembrance, burial grounds and sites ,and perhaps something in one Apocryphal writing which too many don’t see as inspired. Anyways not sure when we become like our Lord up in heaven if we are all hearing. That is, how can passed on saints hear everything on earth and how can they guide us as some have suggested (and I mean more than by example) ?

Mary’s prayer to her Son is infinitely more effacasious than my prayer or your prayer.

Yes and no.There comes a time when nothing is bettere than hearing directly from you.

 

[ufamtobie]

of the few writings of Luther I have read and/or heard on Mary leads me to believe that he held her in higher regard than contemporary Lutherans. is that a fair observation? if so, what happened

Concretecamper,

What happened? A breakdown of beliefs, it happens to all man made churches.

Ufam Tobie

 

[ufamtobie]

Thank you but I am confused for there are devotions to Christ and there are devotions to the saints and devotions to Mary. They may be kingdom centered but not necessarily Christ centered, directed. Correct, you said some ignore the mother where I said some focus,with time, on her. What do you mean that some ignore her if it is not spending time, focusing on her, or as some said, giving her devotion ?

Pocohombre,

The Definition of Devotion = Ardent, often selfless affection and dedication, as to a person or principle.

To be a Christian, you must have devotion to everyone, doing so is not taking away from Jesus Christ, is being like Jesus Christ and doing so it is Very, very 100% Christcentered. Amen

Jesus Christ is the true definition of Devotion, because he died for us, if this is not selfless affection, what is? Amen

Pocohombre don’t you have devotion to your Family or friends?

If you consider yourself a Christian, then know that you have a family in heaven who are the Blessed Virgin Mary and all the saints that you can have devotion to. again, this does not take away from Jesus Christ.

Ufam Tobie

 

[rinnie]

Amen. Plenty of scripture for that. We may be in the same kingdom, same family but in different dimensions. One day both dimensions will be one (heaven and earth). We can certainly approach the throne, we are seated in heavenly places, so I suppose we can be two dimensional, but only by His Spirit and power. But I suppose the crux of the matter is communicating with those, other than an omniscient, omnipresent God, on the other side of this life. Don’t see any good precedent from biblical Jewish roots, only negative. I think the one time it is positive is very specific and shows the rarity of it. Peter wanted to stay there, build altars etc ,at the Transfiguration. That the children of God, His family, did not have altars or statues or devotions to Abraham, Daniel, Moses, David, Solomon Elijah,etc etc. speaks loudly. The most you have is proper veneration. remembrance, burial grounds and sites ,and perhaps something in one Apocryphal writing which too many don’t see as inspired. Anyways not sure when we become like our Lord up in heaven if we are all hearing. That is, how can passed on saints hear everything on earth and how can they guide us as some have suggested (and I mean more than by example) ? Yes and no.There comes a time when nothing is bettere than hearing directly from you.

That’s odd because even the word of God states differently. Why if there is no better pray comming from oneself better as you state, and God tells Job’s friends to have him pray for them, because Job’s prayers God would accept.

That tells me that there are times that God does not always accept our prayers, for whatever reason, I cannot say.

Can you show me a scripture that states that God excepts all prayers?

What about the People who our Lord said I do not know you?

 

[SteveVH]

Anyways not sure when we become like our Lord up in heaven if we are all hearing. That is, how can passed on saints hear everything on earth and how can they guide us as some have suggested (and I mean more than by example)

The saints in heaven are part of the same Body of Christ that we are. That is why they can hear us and intercede for us. We are not separated from each other by death. We are part of the same body. It’s called “the communion of saints”.

 

[pocohombre]

The saints in heaven are part of the same Body of Christ that we are. That is why they can hear us and intercede for us. We are not separated from each other by death. We are part of the same body. It’s called “the communion of saints”.

Thanks Steve but the body of Christ on earth does not have telepathy. That is in order for me to pray for you specifically I have to hear from you or about you specifically. The admonition is to pray for one another in that we are close,in community, we know about each other. It is specific prayer in a local body, a local church. How does this happen when a saint is on the other side ( in heaven), where we can’t see them or hear them and not sure they can hear us,even see us? How ?

 

[concretecamper]

Thanks Steve but the body of Christ on earth does not have telepathy. That is in order for me to pray for you specifically I have to hear from you or about you specifically. The admonition is to pray for one another in that we are close,in community, we know about each other. It is specific prayer in a local body, a local church. How does this happen when a saint is on the other side ( in heaven), where we can’t see them or hear them and not sure they can hear us,even see us? How ?

the terms you are using “the other side” and “different dimension” indicate a impenetrable barrier…which I believe limits God’s power.

 

[pocohombre]

That’s odd because even the word of God states differently. Why if there is no better pray comming from oneself better as you state, and God tells Job’s friends to have him pray for them, because Job’s prayers God would accept.

That tells me that there are times that God does not always accept our prayers, for whatever reason, I cannot say.

Can you show me a scripture that states that God excepts all prayers?

What about the People who our Lord said I do not know you?

" Mary’s prayer to her Son is infinitely more effacasious than my prayer or your prayer" is what Concretecamper posted a few threads before. I answered, “Yes and no. There comes a time when nothing is better than hearing directly from you”. Never said it is always better to be direct ,or never said no one can intercede. I said there comes a time when it is better to be direct (which conversely says there is also a time for intercession). For example one can speak to your betrothed thru the future mother-in-law but can’t be much of a betrothal/romance if you never speak directly/intimately…We make make the Lord feel like the King of Kings that He is by boldly going to His throne and making our requests known, directly, for He is our King .

 

[pocohombre]

Pocohombre,

The Definition of Devotion = Ardent, often selfless affection and dedication, as to a person or principle.

To be a Christian, you must have devotion to everyone, doing so is not taking away from Jesus Christ, is being like Jesus Christ and doing so it is Very, very 100% Christcentered. Amen

Jesus Christ is the true definition of Devotion, because he died for us, if this is not selfless affection, what is? Amen

Pocohombre don’t you have devotion to your Family or friends?

If you consider yourself a Christian, then know that you have a family in heaven who are the Blessed Virgin Mary and all the saints that you can have devotion to. again, this does not take away from Jesus Christ.

Ufam Tobie

Devotions-"(usually plural) religious observance or prayers (usually spoken silently)". Thank you but I was talking about devotions, plural. There are specific devotions to specific saints that Catholics have shared that they observe, as well as those specifically to God.