The atheists best argument?

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You know perfectly well that anyone who is following this thread is aware that you quoted my statement in your post #90:
It is hardly surprising that fifty posts later after you had failed to respond to my previous post I should repeat that statement because anyone with a modicum of intelligence knows it contradicts your statement:
I omitted because it would have been an unnecessary distraction but in retrospect it would have made your complaint even more obviously unreasonable…

Do you really believe I was trying to misrepresent you? If so what was my motive?

It is more likely you are trying to misrepresent me…
That’s disgraceful.

I’m at a loss why you started this charade, and invite you to report my post #363 and let the moderator decide.

Having given you many opportunities to retract your misrepresentation, you’ve instead decided to add insult to injury. We’ve known each other a long time but I think it best if you don’t post to me again until you can return to behaving civilly and honestly. But let’s be clear, any more of this and I will report you. Now please go to your room and think about what you’ve done. 😦
 
Inocente, if you look to your conscience and then understand from there that God is above us, you can then realize that God does not have to act as humans act. He acts for a greater good
 
That’s disgraceful.

I’m at a loss why you started this charade, and invite you to report my post #363 and let the moderator decide.

Having given you many opportunities to retract your misrepresentation, you’ve instead decided to add insult to injury. We’ve known each other a long time but I think it best if you don’t post to me again until you can return to behaving civilly and honestly. But let’s be clear, any more of this and I will report you. Now please go to your room and think about what you’ve done.
You have completely ignored my explanation of what has occurred:
You know perfectly well that anyone who is following this thread is aware that you quoted my statement in your post #90:
**

Originally Posted by
** tonyrey
In a Godless universe there is no reason why anything exists.
It is hardly surprising that fifty posts later after you had failed to respond to my previous post I should repeat that statement because anyone with a modicum of intelligence knows it contradicts your statement:
**
A secular society
** is a good defense against the excesses of Talibans and co.
I omitted:
Your truculence is unseemly on a philosophy forum. A little courtesy would be refreshing…
because it would have been an unnecessary distraction but in retrospect it would have made your complaint even more obviously unreasonable…

BTW I’m not the one who “started this charade”. I haven’t criticised you - apart from referring to your flagrant lack of courtesy in a previous post which violates the forum rules:
Are you arguing that child abuse is good and virtuous until someone explains to you why it’s evil?** If so then forget it, no one needs your rubber stamp to know it’s evil.**
🤷
 
Please see post #384.

I think you’ve sprung a similar logic trap - if God is all-good and God respects free-will, then to be good we ought to follow God’s all-good example and also respect the free-will of the child abuser. But we don’t, every normal person does the exact opposite and violates the free-will of the abuser, because we have far more respect for the free-will of the abused child.

Therefore either the claim that God is all-good is disproved, or else we’re evil when we violate the free-will of the abuser in stopping child abuse.
Please observe:
You are making an assertion that I did not make. Reread my last post to you.
 
Inocente, if you look to your conscience and then understand from there that God is above us, you can then realize that God does not have to act as humans act. He acts for a greater good
Indeed. We all make mistakes and misinterpret others but we shouldn’t bear grudges against anyone even when we feel justified. The owner of a very small garage recently cheated me out of £100 deposit but he may need the money. Even if he doesn’t many people in our secular society are hardly dishonest when they’ve had no moral education. Many women have an abortion without even considering whether it’s right or wrong…
 
It seems a bit more complicated to me, because humans have free will in heaven, but heaven is set up so that you will not reject God, or at least be very unlikely to sin and reject God in heaven. Why could not the earth be set up with man having free will but not inclined to sin and reject God?
Heaven is not arbitrarily set up as an incentive not to sin. It is the inevitable result of loving others and thereby loving their Creator. Nor are we inclined to reject God because many people don’t even believe God exists! When we reject others in effect we reject God without whom no one would exist. We are the victims of our ancestors’ folly, ignorance and weakness. The bloodstained history of humanity was rightly regarded by Arthur Koestler as a streak of insanity but it is culpable insanity because we can distinguish good from evil and love from self-love. Yet regardless of whether we are inclined to sin we cannot be capable of unselfish love unless we have the power to choose whether to put ourselves or others first. If we are compelled to “love” others we are not, to use Sartre’s term, authentic. Even as an atheist he realised we cannot be genuinely committed unless we are to free to make our own choices and decisions.
 
Let’s look only at the logic of the philosophical argument. The claim is that God is all-good, all-knowing and all-powerful.

All normal persons say child abuse is evil, and will move heaven and earth to stop it. But is child abuse really evil? Should Christians intervene to stop child abuse? Well, if the claim is true, we can look to God’s actions for our answer. If the claim is true, God sees every incidence of child abuse and could easily stop it, so if God is all-good we ought to do as God does.

What action does the all-good, all-knowing and all-powerful God take? He lets children be abused. He sees all the physical, emotional and spiritual scars as they are inflicted on abused children, and takes no action, even though he could easily stop it. Case after case after case, he does nothing.

Logically then, as God is all-good, we should follow his example and also turn a blind eye to child abuse. Let all the damage be inflicted, in the faith that God will provide the ultimate cure, the ultimate love, the ultimate salvation as you say.

Yet no normal person ever follows God’s example and allows children to be abused. We do the exact opposite. So either the claim is disproved or else we’re evil when we try to stop child abuse.

So Epicurus thanks you for your :twocents: but notes that by attempting to defend the claim that God is all-good, all-knowing and all-powerful, you’ve sprung a logic trap.
Logic, I would never claim to be my forte.

From what you say above, I would conclude that you do not believe that God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolence.
Another possibility is that you know logic to be a bunch of hogwash, where it leads away from reality.
it can do this obviously if the premises or ideas do not coincide with the truth, the atheist’s dilemma.
Even where individual ideas are specifically correct, the whole may not be fully represented as they are brought together in the argument, possibly your problem.
The blind men trying to conclude what is an elephant will never get there unless somehow its reality is revealed.
Is your goal here to make fun of philosophers who think themselves brilliant?

At any rate, whatever is going on, I would direct you to the Catechism and welcome you to participate in the church.
 
Omnibenevolent means not prioritizing one over the other.
:ehh: Well, now you are just making stuff up.

What does “not prioritizing one over the other” even mean?

Rocks don’t “prioritize,” either. Does that mean they are omnibenevolent? I mean all the good they do like holding walls up, decorating the landscape, keeping paper from flying away, keeping people and things around campfires from getting burned, stopping erosion, supporting train rails, and on and on. They don’t appear to “prioritize” in any sense of “making judgements.” They just do what they do without fanfare. So, they are omnibenevolent, then?
 
The parable of finding the lost sheep is just a parable about finding a lost person. It doesn’t mean God abandons others in order to do this. Its about the urgency of finding the sinner, who can only be bright to great glory by being tested
Your point is made obscure by the fact that we are unclear to whom it is being addressed.
 
It seems a bit more complicated to me, because humans have free will in heaven, but heaven is set up so that you will not reject God, or at least be very unlikely to sin and reject God in heaven. Why could not the earth be set up with man having free will but not inclined to sin and reject God?
Let’s look at purely non-religious analogy and allow nature to instruct us.

I begin a relationship with a woman. The relationship flowers as I freely choose it. If I am coerced against my will, that is not a relationship. Nothing can develop if I am not free to choose the beloved. If I am not free to choose there is a lack of relationship, a void where something good was a possibility, but does not really exist because I did not choose it freely. This deprivation of the good is AKA evil.

As I freely give myself to the other person, the relationship can flower, or become fruitful. One of the fruits of the relationship is an ever increasing freedom.
For example, when the relationship began it might have taken a great effort to give up a football game to do something my loved one desires instead. My will wants something other than to sacrifice for the relationship. But as the relationship grows in strength, my will becomes united to the will of my beloved. As my will becomes united with my beloved I am more free to will the good of my beloved. More free, not less. I want to do give, and do it freely.

Heaven is this free will relationship, not slavery as your idea implies. It is the pure freedom to love fully, to be of one will with the beloved. This does not mean I lose my will. It means that united with the beloved, the will is ultimately more free.
That is what heaven is, the perfected freedom to unite fully with the beloved. It is not a zero sum game where having one thing means some other thing is deprived.
We know this in non-religious terms when we look at the nature of relationships. A giving and selfless relationship brings joy, peace, happiness, and the true freedom to love ever more fully.
 
All normal persons say child abuse is evil, and will move heaven and earth to stop it… Should Christians intervene to stop child abuse? Well, if the claim is true, we can look to God’s actions for our answer. If the claim is true, God sees every incidence of child abuse and could easily stop it, so if God is all-good we ought to do as God does.
You are being a bit disingenuous here because the way in which God would work to stop child abuse – in the hearts of those with a proclivity, inclination or will to do so – means that we would never hear about the incidents that God has successfully stopped, would we?

I mean the actual cases of child abuse might be relatively and vanishingly small when compared to all the people who might potentially commit child abuse. It isn’t like everyone is going to 'fess up to having such tendencies if they were dissuaded by some small act of God from doing so. Most would plead the fifth, in terms of culpable desire, I would expect. And the ones who chose to ignore God’s influence to the contrary, have a lot at stake by hiding the fact that they were shutting down the shouting voice of God within them.
What action does the all-good, all-knowing and all-powerful God take? He lets children be abused. He sees all the physical, emotional and spiritual scars as they are inflicted on abused children, and takes no action, even though he could easily stop it. Case after case after case, he does nothing.
Christ was crucified in an egregious manner. He suffered “physical, emotional and spiritual scars.” God took “no action,” in the sense you infer. He could have easily stopped it. Why didn’t he? That is a question for the ages, but it is, at ground, the same question you are asking. In the case of Christ, it was God who suffered. That means something. Perhaps in the “case after case after case” of child abuse, it is God, too, who suffers there. Perhaps this tells us something of the nature of God and our relationship to that nature?

Which is the real evil, suffering abuse or perpetrating the abuse? God chose to suffer the abuse in Christ and permitted the perpetration of it EVEN TO HIMSELF. Why?
Logically then, as God is all-good, we should follow his example and also turn a blind eye to child abuse. Let all the damage be inflicted, in the faith that God will provide the ultimate cure, the ultimate love, the ultimate salvation as you say.
Actually, if we are to follow his example, like Christ (God) did by becoming fully human and suffering the indignity and pain of the crucifixion, we ought to fully become one with the abused child, so that we fully become aware of the pain and humility suffered by the child. Perhaps by entering fully into that suffering we would be fully able to empathize and never permit another evil thought to enter our minds again. Perhaps simply by becoming FULLY one with the rejected, scorned, victimized, tortured, abused victims as Christ did, we would never ever permit evil to enter our hearts again.

Perpetrators of abuse often have been abused themselves, but the difference is that they took that affront to their dignity as intolerable and have reacted to by attacking others and perpetrating the same. The real evil is what happens to the hearts, minds and wills of those who suffer evil – the manner in which evil is contagious and spawns itself by infecting those touched by it. The antidote is Christ, the One who has the power to suffer evil but not be infected, not be changed by it. If the abused child and the abuser had known about the antidote, perhaps neither would have been affected by it.

By nurturing the awareness of the presence of God within us, in the place where it counts, evil can be overcome. Evil is not an external phenomenon, and, as such, it can only be overcome within the subject that hosts it. Changing the externals does not make an impact. Disease, once it has taken root, must be treated internally, not by changing externals.

What you have missed is that what God does to the abused child is to share himself FULLY with that child. The child has everything – the Creator and Sustainer of all that is within him. The power to overcome the influence of the evil of abuse. The pervert on the other hand has lost everything. Which of the two is in a worse-off and more perilous condition? The perpetrator has the disease (evil) wrecking its damage to his person and will, the victim has suffered physical and psychological injury. The question is whether the victim will permit the injury to infect the core of his spirit and will.
Yet no normal person ever follows God’s example and allows children to be abused. We do the exact opposite. So either the claim is disproved or else we’re evil when we try to stop child abuse.

So Epicurus thanks you for your :twocents: but notes that by attempting to defend the claim that God is all-good, all-knowing and all-powerful, you’ve sprung a logic trap.
The “logic trap” is superficially compelling, but like all temptations it loses its luster after you have fallen into it. Apparently, you have taken the bait and have been caught.

I suppose God is to be blamed for the bad logic of the trap, as well? For the “knowledge” of the logic of good and evil which serves as the impulse to move us near the trap even though he explicitly warned our first parents about it? We are entirely free to fall for bad logic. The only antidote, it seems would be the use of God-endowed good logic, not our own self-appointed, know-it-all rationalizing logic that we dust-off every time we need to justify human behaviour and impugn God. Somehow God is always to be blamed for what humans do despite that we are autonomous moral agents with the capacity to choose good and the power (underwritten by God’s grace) to ALWAYS do so.
 
Please see post #384.

I think you’ve sprung a similar logic trap - if God is all-good and God respects free-will, then to be good we ought to follow God’s all-good example and also respect the free-will of the child abuser. But we don’t, every normal person does the exact opposite and violates the free-will of the abuser, because we have far more respect for the free-will of the abused child.

Therefore either the claim that God is all-good is disproved, or else we’re evil when we violate the free-will of the abuser in stopping child abuse.
The reason that the “logic trap” has you persuaded is because you misunderstand one of the basic principles of logic and justice: Treat like things alike with respect to the ways in which they are alike.

Humans are not omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent. That means what human beings are held accountable for are not the same as what God is to be. The reverse is also true. God is not to be held accountable for what humans are in all cases. There is an infinite gulf between the capacities and, therefore, the accountabilities of humans and those of God.

The logic does not lead to an inference that humans should act like God in all cases, nor that God should act as humans in all cases, only with respect to the ways humans and God are alike. Since there is an infinite gulf between them, there is no automatic assumption that God need act precisely as humans do in all cases.

Your argument is weak since it relies upon an equivalency that doesn’t exist and you haven’t made the case that it does, just assumed it.

Morally speaking, God has responsibilities that humans do not and humans have responsibilities that God does not, even though some may be held in common. God gives life and takes it. Humans do not give life in the same sense – as authors of it – therefore we do not have a moral right to take it as we determine precisely because we lack the wherewithal to know the full repercussions of giving and taking life - we lack omniscience. A huge and relevant difference between humans and God. Ergo, not the same accountability.
 
:ehh: Well, now you are just making stuff up.

What does “not prioritizing one over the other” even mean?

Rocks don’t “prioritize,” either. Does that mean they are omnibenevolent? I mean all the good they do like holding walls up, decorating the landscape, keeping paper from flying away, keeping people and things around campfires from getting burned, stopping erosion, supporting train rails, and on and on. They don’t appear to “prioritize” in any sense of “making judgements.” They just do what they do without fanfare. So, they are omnibenevolent, then?
I was simply explaining the “us” in the definition that confused you:
To really understand, you’ll have to explicitly define “omnibenevolent.” The definition given in the problem of evil is typically something along the lines of: “an entity is omnibenevolent if and only if it always wills what is good/best for us.”
Omnibenevolent means that “us” does not simply refer to some abstract bag of humanity, but rather each individual equally.

You had previously made a long post detailing why God would distribute his benevolence unequally between an abuser and child. I was explaining that omnibenevolence does not allow that. If my understanding of Catholic theology is correct, it doesn’t allow that either.
 
I was simply explaining the “us” in the definition that confused you:
Omnibenevolent means that “us” does not simply refer to some abstract bag of humanity, but rather each individual equally.

You had previously made a long post detailing why God would distribute his benevolence unequally between an abuser and child. I was explaining that omnibenevolence does not allow that. If my understanding of Catholic theology is correct, it doesn’t allow that either.
Revelation reveals a person, not a bag of cookies.
An cookie lady might hand out cookies to those who earn them, and wag her finger at those who don’t.

Rather than a reward, what is revealed in omnibenevolence is a person who is love, by it’s very being. Or in other words, the benefit that is revealed is a relationship, not a bag of cookies. The benefitis “to be”, truly and fully, in communion with another person.

So the point is, God is a person and the nature of that person does not change despite the fact that one person abuses and another is abused.
Omnibenevolence does not depend on the behavior of creatures.
 
It seems a bit more complicated to me, because humans have free will in heaven, but heaven is set up so that you will not reject God, or at least be very unlikely to sin and reject God in heaven. Why could not the earth be set up with man having free will but not inclined to sin and reject God?
Earth was set up with man having a free will and not inclined to sin. God created man open to sin, that is He allowed man to choose God’s will or his own (God only partially revealed Himself to Adam and Eve). Adam did not obey. And neither would you or I.

The good news is that because man committed the Original Sin and became inclined to sin, God bringing good out of evil, not only redeemed us but opened to us something far greater than the Garden of Eden – a participation in the Trinitarian life. What an awesome God!
 

Christ was crucified in an egregious manner. He suffered “physical, emotional and spiritual scars.” God took “no action,” in the sense you infer. He could have easily stopped it. Why didn’t he? That is a question for the ages, …

Which is the real evil, suffering abuse or perpetrating the abuse? God chose to suffer the abuse in Christ and permitted the perpetration of it EVEN TO HIMSELF. Why?
Socrates answered the question: Is it worse to be a wrongdoer or a victim?

In Gorgias, we witness the ongoing discussion between Socrates and Polus about “injustice”, where the two debate whether it is better to suffer the consequences of unjustness from one viewpoint over the other. Socrates says, “I for one would wish neither; but if it were necessary to do or to suffer injustice, I would choose rather to suffer than to do injustice” (469 c).

The logic trap for those who blame God for evil is to ask why they have not done what God has done. To reverse the evil of all humanity for all time, God sent His Son. To reduce child abuse in our age, He sent us you. What have you done?
 
Socrates answered the question: Is it worse to be a wrongdoer or a victim?

In Gorgias, we witness the ongoing discussion between Socrates and Polus about “injustice”, where the two debate whether it is better to suffer the consequences of unjustness from one viewpoint over the other. Socrates says, “I for one would wish neither; but if it were necessary to do or to suffer injustice, I would choose rather to suffer than to do injustice” (469 c).

The logic trap for those who blame God for evil is to ask why they have not done what God has done. To reverse the evil of all humanity for all time, God sent His Son. To reduce child abuse in our age, He sent us you. What have you done?
I would like to answer this question, since I did blame God for complicitness in evil two or three pages back. My first response is to point out that this is a tue quoque fallacy. My lack of action does not excuse God’s culpability in this matter. Secondly, I don’t have the capabilities that God presumably has. If I knew where and when a child was being abused, I would immediately alert the police. In fact, I could be arrested for complicity if I fail to report the crime. God, being omniscient, does know these things and does nothing, despite His omnipotence. A prosecutor would have a field day with God in the dock.
 
It seems a bit more complicated to me, because humans have free will in heaven, but heaven is set up so that you will not reject God, or at least be very unlikely to sin and reject God in heaven. Why could not the earth be set up with man having free will but not inclined to sin and reject God?
Because not being inclined to sin is no guarantee that we will not sin.

Think Adam and Eve.
 
I would like to answer this question, since I did blame God for complicitness in evil two or three pages back. My first response is to point out that this is a tue quoque fallacy. My lack of action does not excuse God’s culpability in this matter. Secondly, I don’t have the capabilities that God presumably has. If I knew where and when a child was being abused, I would immediately alert the police. In fact, I could be arrested for complicity if I fail to report the crime. God, being omniscient, does know these things and does nothing, despite His omnipotence. A prosecutor would have a field day with God in the dock.
You are assuming God does nothing but you cannot possibly know to what extent He does intervene, probably in the majority of cases of potential abuse. Nor do you take into account the effect of ensuring that child abuse never occurs. It would be obvious to everyone that a benevolent Power is protecting children and we would no longer be free to choose what to believe or how to live. We would be incapable of the highest form of love because we would know we shall be rewarded in heaven for making sacrifices on earth. We have to be in the dark to prove what we are really worth - like Jesus on the Cross.
 
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