The atheists best argument?

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Does anyone deserve to reap punishment for one billion years? Still not even one moment closer to an eternity of punishment. One trillion trillion trillion years and still no closer to an eternity of punishment.

Some theologies seem to lack all empathy and compassion. Not to mention justice. 🤷

BTW How exactly does someone go from suffering the Holocaust yesterday to no nightmares in heaven today? Doesn’t that trivialize the Holocaust? Doesn’t it trivialize all pain and sorrow? Suffering is part of what made us who we are, part of our souls, take it away and we are no longer whole, we’re lobotomized, Disneyfied. Sounds like the Matrix on an eternal morphine drip.
You have a very strange idea of the afterlife. I hope it doesn’t correspond to your concept of the Christian God…
 
I’m not sure you are following the argument. There are a lot of first person pronouns in there because it emphasises my point. Which was…

…these inbuilt emotions prompt us in ways that both improve our personal sense of worth AND benefit society. That is, doing something that you feel is right. Everyone feels good doing what they feel is right. Everyone feels discomfort in doing things they know to be wrong.

Have you never wondered why?
It can be argued that Ghengis Kahn benefited society. How do you think Ghengis felt about his warring, raping and pillaging? He must have felt pretty good since he was pretty good at it and kept it up for over 40 years. Historians report he’s responsible for over 40 million deaths. But, hey, he was tolerant of many religions, started the first international postal system and promoted international trade – good things for society

The point is that emotions, as I would think a “***Rational ***Rat” would agree, cannot be our best faculty for judging the morality of our actions. The emotions move the intellect. If reason does not stand in the way of perverted emotions – jealousy, revenge, rage, lust, etc. then the intellect moves the will to act immorally. Ghengis did not feel his actions were immoral. What would you say to a Ghengis Kahn? If it feels good, do it?
 
To get back to the Op’s original question I found a saint who speaks to all of this.
“While those who give scandal are guilty of the spiritual equivalent of murder, those who take scandal—who allow scandals to destroy their faith—are guilty of spiritual suicide.” - St. Francis de Sales
 
You are confusing the hard wired emotions that we feel with morality itself. The first is fixed. Everyone feels them, always have and presumably always will. The second isn’t. What triggers the emotions is the cause of moral thinking, but just because you feel embarrassed or proud about something doesn’t mean that others will as well. As I have said before and as you have kindly pointed out above, morality isn’t fixed and can be said to be constantly developing. To use a trite example, it wasn’t that long ago that a person may have felt shame if someone knew that they were gay. Or someone might have been embarrassed to discover a friend was gay. Now we know better. Now those feelings have mostly disappeared and our sense of morality as far a gay friends are concerned have changed.

Now it is quite possible that a person will hide his homophobia (used in the strict sense of the word) because they don’t want to be rejected by the majority of society.

I hope that the above clears that misunderstanding.
To be honest it doesn’t clear up any misunderstanding because there was no misunderstanding.

You can’t say, “Now we know better,” or “Morality is improving,” without a clear view of what morality is and the ends towards which moral principles exist in the first place. You have no grounds for claiming things are getting better or now we know better unless you can precisely detail what “better” actually involves. And if you can detail that today, why couldn’t it have been detailed 100 years ago or 2000 years ago. In fact, I much prefer Aristotle’s clearly detailed ethical system and Jesus’ clear view of the ends involved than most of the contrived or ad hoc ethical “suggestions” that pass for morality today.

You provide no grounds - except appeals to politically correct social approval or to a very small segment of the population “feeling” more comfortable - as the basis for your claim that “Now we know better.” We “know” better because some subset or a subset (gays) are made to “feel” better? How is that a rational argument?

You may as well argue that the most fundamental grounds for morality are achieved by determining whether or to what extent a few or a lot of people – who happen to be oblivious to consequences and “feel” “good” precisely because they are oblivious to those consequences – report having more “positive” or comfortable feelings. Good luck persuading any serious moral thinkers of that. Why don’t we just drug everyone with happy pills to the point of oblivion and, voila, there’s your Utopia: everyone “feeling” better.

Unless you can trace a direct line from “feeling” better to actually being better-off given specific teleological ends, you haven’t made the case. AND, by the way, you can’t argue that gays are better off merely because they “feel” better off. That would be circular reasoning.

No, a far more compelling argument would be that moral systems necessarily aim towards objective and definable ends in terms of actual well-being and such an argument positively requires a depiction of what that “good” or “well-off” state looks like given the nature of what it means to be a human being - not merely that some sector or other of humanity, or even the bulk of humanity “feel” more comfortable or more secure. That state of emotionally induced obliviousness or contentedness could, like the proverbial calm before the storm, merely portend some cataclysmic existential or moral disaster and may, in fact, have nothing to do with the actual state of humanity with regard to moral agency.

Sorry, Brad, but any claim that human beings ARE better off merely because they FEEL better off, is not one worth entertaining - not for more than a few seconds.
 
It can be argued that Ghengis Kahn benefited society. How do you think Ghengis felt about his warring, raping and pillaging? He must have felt pretty good since he was pretty good at it and kept it up for over 40 years. Historians report he’s responsible for over 40 million deaths. But, hey, he was tolerant of many religions, started the first international postal system and promoted international trade – good things for society

The point is that emotions, as I would think a “***Rational ***Rat” would agree, cannot be our best faculty for judging the morality of our actions. The emotions move the intellect. If reason does not stand in the way of perverted emotions – jealousy, revenge, rage, lust, etc. then the intellect moves the will to act immorally. Ghengis did not feel his actions were immoral. What would you say to a Ghengis Kahn? If it feels good, do it?
I was going to say reread post 778, but it seems like a fair bet you didn’t read it in the first place.
 
Now it is quite possible that a person will hide his homophobia (used in the strict sense of the word) because they don’t want to be rejected by the majority of society.
And it is also quite possible that some persons will hide their authentic moral view concerning homosexual behaviour out of apprehension or cowardice and because they don’t want to be rejected by the majority of society.

Actually, given that modern liberal “progressivist” society has taken to smoking out and severely chastising anyone who opposes its prevailing views on such issues, it is far more than merely possible that authentic morality is being tossed under the PC steamroller in order for supposedly “moral” individuals not to be “rejected by the majority of society.”

You aren’t claiming that the majority of society is right merely because it is a majority, are you?

I didn’t suppose you would, but who knows?

Perhaps the “majority of society” has its menacing claws into such a fine upstanding young rational rat such as yourself to the point that you can’t think for yourself without a bead of sweat forming on your brow and a cold shiver running down your spine?
 
You are confusing the hard wired emotions that we feel with morality itself. The first is fixed. Everyone feels them, always have and presumably always will. The second isn’t. What triggers the emotions is the cause of moral thinking, but just because you feel embarrassed or proud about something doesn’t mean that others will as well. As I have said before and as you have kindly pointed out above, morality isn’t fixed and can be said to be constantly developing. To use a trite example, it wasn’t that long ago that a person may have felt shame if someone knew that they were gay. Or someone might have been embarrassed to discover a friend was gay. Now we know better. Now those feelings have mostly disappeared and our sense of morality as far a gay friends are concerned have changed.
Sorry I missed this post earlier.

It was I believe Chesterton who bemoaned the spectacle of those who assert that the morality of Thursday is superior to the morality of Tuesday.

One might as well say that killing the unborn is morally righteous because it came later than the censure of killing the unborn.

Might it not be infinitely inferior, as in the later decision to go nuclear in war is inferior to the earlier decision to fight with conventional weapons?

You might be surprised to learn that certain perverse activities are never going to be anything but perverse no matter what day of the week most people assert they are normal. Hitler was hailed everywhere in Germany in 1932. Twelve years later his corpse could not be definitely identified.
 
That doesn’t work. Suppose someone is violently gang raped. No amount of bliss can compensate. After a thousand years of bliss she will still have nightmares.
What an impoverished understanding of the beatific vision this demonstrates.
 
You can’t say, “Now we know better,” or “Morality is improving,” without a clear view of what morality is and the ends towards which moral principles exist in the first place. You have no grounds for claiming things are getting better or now we know better unless you can precisely detail what “better” actually involves. And if you can detail that today, why couldn’t it have been detailed 100 years ago or 2000 years ago.
I don’t think that anyone could seriously deny that we are in a better position now as regards morality than we were in times past. You only have to consider the treatment of women, children, people of other beliefs, sexual orientation, colour, background…the list just goes on. Just look at that Youtube clip to which I linked and say that we don’t know better now than we did about what constitute a better world. And please, this is not an opening for you to bemoan the state of morals today – no-one is saying that we have everything nailed down nice and tightly. It’s that things are better now than previous – or less worse if you’d like.

As to why we couldn’t detail what constituted a better world in times past, I think people accept the status quo all too readily. We each have our own lives to live and if something doesn’t affect us directly, then we tend to ignore it. Aleppo? What’s that…?
You provide no grounds - except appeals to politically correct social approval or to a very small segment of the population “feeling” more comfortable - as the basis for your claim that “Now we know better.” We “know” better because some subset or a subset (gays) are made to “feel” better? How is that a rational argument?
Gotta love these buzz words. No, it’s not because something is ‘politically correct’. It’s because it’s socially acceptable. More people accept something which they previously didn’t and it becomes socially acceptable. Does that make it right? Hell, no. But I’m simply describing what we go through. The outcome may be the wrong one as far as you and I are concerned. As I said before, and it looks like I’ll have to repeat it, your inbuilt emotions reflect what you personally believe is the right (or wrong) thing to do. They evolved to help us maintain the species. They are not a guide as to what is, in any given situation, morally correct or not.
No, a far more compelling argument would be that moral systems necessarily aim towards objective and definable ends in terms of actual well-being and such an argument positively requires a depiction of what that “good” or “well-off” state looks like given the nature of what it means to be a human being - not merely that some sector or other of humanity, or even the bulk of humanity “feel” more comfortable or more secure.
I agree. And I have no problem in agreeing because I have not posted anything that would contradict that. And I would emphasise the ‘objective and definable’ aspects of morality. If someone cannot justify a point of view in an objective way and bring evidence to support their view, then they can be ignored.
Sorry, Brad, but any claim that human beings ARE better off merely because they FEEL better off, is not one worth entertaining - not for more than a few seconds.
Agreed.
And it is also quite possible that some persons will hide their authentic moral view concerning homosexual behaviour out of apprehension or cowardice and because they don’t want to be rejected by the majority of society.

Actually, given that modern liberal “progressivist” society has taken to smoking out and severely chastising anyone who opposes its prevailing views on such issues, it is far more than merely possible that authentic morality is being tossed under the PC steamroller in order for supposedly “moral” individuals not to be “rejected by the majority of society.”
Yep. As I said, people have a tendency to go with the crowd. Weimar Germany has already been mentioned. This is why it’s beneficial to hear all arguments, however we might reject them.
You aren’t claiming that the majority of society is right merely because it is a majority, are you?
Nope. Just saying that that is the way the world sometimes works.
It was I believe Chesterton who bemoaned the spectacle of those who assert that the morality of Thursday is superior to the morality of Tuesday.
Just give me an era, Charles, when things were better. Any era. Modern times, ancient times, up to you.
 
I don’t think that anyone could seriously deny that we are in a better position now as regards morality than we were in times past.
Better. Interesting.

That implies a standard, yes? “We are going towards that standard as the years progress”

Yes, Bradski, yes!!!

You always sound so much like a moral absolutist, friend!
 
What! If this is true, then I’ve been deceived for years! :eek: I’ve been told that if I don’t obey God’s rules, then God is the one who will throw me in the fiery depths of hell. If however, I’m responsible for my own punishment, then I will simply choose not to punish myself with hell.
Jesus used symbolism in accordance with the Jewish custom of presenting spiritual truths to uneducated people. He made it quite clear in His teaching that we alone are responsible for what we do and don’t do:

“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments”.

We’re not faced with a choice of whether to choose to punish ourselves with hell but whether to love others as well as ourselves - like the Good Samaritan.
 
It can be argued that Ghengis Kahn benefited society. How do you think Ghengis felt about his warring, raping and pillaging? He must have felt pretty good since he was pretty good at it and kept it up for over 40 years. Historians report he’s responsible for over 40 million deaths. But, hey, he was tolerant of many religions, started the first international postal system and promoted international trade – good things for society

The point is that emotions, as I would think a “***Rational ***Rat” would agree, cannot be our best faculty for judging the morality of our actions. The emotions move the intellect. If reason does not stand in the way of perverted emotions – jealousy, revenge, rage, lust, etc. then the intellect moves the will to act immorally. Ghengis did not feel his actions were immoral. What would you say to a Ghengis Kahn? If it feels good, do it?
I was going to say reread post 778, but it seems like a fair bet you didn’t read it in the first place.
Not anything new in that post to support the wrong-headed assertion that the guide to one’s moral conduct emanates from their own emotions.

“… psychopaths are almost always rational. They are well aware that their ill-advised or illegal actions are wrong in the eyes of society but shrug off these concerns with startling nonchalance.”
scientificamerican.com/article/what-psychopath-means/

If you told Ghengis he was a psychopath, he would tell you he is quite normal and that it is you who is the psycho. Get it? If the only authority one accepts is internal then “I’m” normal; you’re not" is the only possible response which seems an even bet to be your moral anthem. It was also Hitler’s. See: sott.net/article/214764-Ponerology-101-Psychopathy-at-Nuremburg
 
What an impoverished understanding of the beatific vision this demonstrates.
Kind of reminds me of of a corollary: a little boy claiming that he simply cannot be happy unless he is permitted to bring his toy truck into the marriage bed with him.

Clearly, he has no idea about the bliss that can occur in the marital embrace. He is stuck on having his truck and demands that he be able to bring it with him on his honeymoon 20 years in the future.

Ok. We all understand that he just doesn’t get, from his 5 year old point of view, that his toy truck simply won’t matter when he is with his beloved on his wedding night.

#impoverishedunderstanding
 
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