The atheists best argument?

[Peter_Plato]

A 1000 years is not a long time compared to infinity, but on it’s own it’s a pretty long time.

I hoped nobody would notice. Burning people while they’re conscious would be a better way of phrasing it.

The option isn’t necessarily temporal (1000 years) vs infinite time. It is an option between temporal and eternal (timeless) existence.

This is why we ought not draw conclusions based upon our understanding. The nature of reality is something we do not fully grasp, but God does. Jesus’ warnings ought not be taken lightly precisely because we don’t fully grasp what is at stake or at hand.

 

[Bradski]

…to wit: something which is potentially harmful to one’s well-being.

That will have me chuckling all afternoon.

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will all suffer something which will be potentially harmful to their well being.

Nah, it loses something. Revelation doesn’t have the same ring.

 

[Bradski]

Oops, double post…

 

[Aloysium]

The option isn’t necessarily temporal (1000 years) vs infinite time. It is an option between temporal and eternal (timeless) existence. This is why we ought not draw conclusions based upon our understanding. The nature of reality is something we do not fully grasp, but God does. Jesus’ warnings ought not be taken lightly precisely because we don’t fully grasp what is at stake or at hand.

It seems pointless to try, but I’ll give it a go:

We all know pain. It is part of the human condition as is joy.
We are one humanity in sin (Adam), using one another for our own purposes. We are also joined in Love (Christ) - caring for one another in our common condition and giving of ourselves to our neighbour.
Human existence contains a sulphurous lake of fire that constitutes the fruits of lust, be it for power, pleasure, things, and pride. It is there, eternal within human nature, and into which we may fall on the winding path we follow through our individual lives.
There is also the Way, Jesus Christ, in whom we are lifted from the mire that is sin and through whom we grow to know God. These aren’t just archaic Biblical words; they speak to the reality of what is a person, each of us an expression of humanity, relational in nature and in a state of becoming.

It is a matter of what part we want our existence to play within the symphony that is the totality of human existence, holy, one, all moments and places known by the Heart from whom all creation springs.
That part we chose, for or against love, cannot but remain unchanged once our lives are done.
We do know hell, but dying to sin, leaving our old selves, we are reborn in Christ as we give ourselves over to God.
We can be where we were meant to be, ever with Goodness, Beauty, Truth and Life itself

That would seem sufficient, but we are promised a resurrection which is more than a spiritual rebirth into the light. This body is to assume it’s glorious form, it’s spirit arising from the kernel of our passing through this life, the relationship we have forged with God. Whatever awaits us, there is a vast universe out there. I don’t see why there couldn’t be malicious idiots out there or perhaps they meld to form a “lake” of strife and disharmony. Ever talk to someone who decades later continues to hate the ex? It’s sort of like that, hell, it’s all the same mess and nothing changes, the first day, identical to the last.

. . . something like that.

 

[PRmerger]

A 1000 years is not a long time compared to infinity, but on it’s own it’s a pretty long time.

Again, a really, really impoverished understanding of infinitude and basic math.

I hoped nobody would notice.

Oops!

Burning people while they’re conscious would be a better way of phrasing it.

Still not sure what you’re referencing?

Are you taking a fundamentalist’s reading of the Scriptures here?

You know the saying…scratch an atheist, find a fundamentalist…

 

[inocente]

This demonstrates an impoverished understanding of infinitude.

A punishment of, say, 1000 years, followed by infinity in bliss is analogous (but ineffectually so) to punishing a 10 year old boy for 3 seconds (You have to wait out here while the rest of us go in and enjoy the park!) for pushing his brother before he gets to spend the rest of the day in Disney World.

That doesn’t work. Suppose someone is violently gang raped. No amount of bliss can compensate. After a thousand years of bliss she will still have nightmares.

Now imagine she was punished by being gang raped for 1000 years. An infinity of bliss would not be nearly long enough to undo the harm.

For that matter, tell me of any punishment lasting 1000 years, day in day out for 365,000 days, which wouldn’t do lasting harm. Even to the soul of a special forces guy specially trained to undergo punishment, let alone anyone else.

 

[tonyrey]

That doesn’t work. Suppose someone is violently gang raped. No amount of bliss can compensate. After a thousand years of bliss she will still have nightmares.

Now imagine she was punished by being gang raped for 1000 years. An infinity of bliss would not be nearly long enough to undo the harm.

For that matter, tell me of any punishment lasting 1000 years, day in day out for 365,000 days, which wouldn’t do lasting harm. Even to the soul of a special forces guy specially trained to undergo punishment, let alone anyone else.

Harm can never be undone but the victim is not alone. As Pascal pointed out, Jesus is in agony until the end of the world and shares the suffering of everyone. The victims of atrocities will be glorified and united to Him in heaven whereas those who don’t repent will reap the punishment they deserve by being isolated and frustrated by being incapable of inflicting their will on others.

BTW There are no nightmares in heaven…

 

[goout]

That doesn’t work. Suppose someone is violently gang raped. No amount of bliss can compensate. After a thousand years of bliss she will still have nightmares.

Now imagine she was punished by being gang raped for 1000 years. An infinity of bliss would not be nearly long enough to undo the harm.

wow.
I’ll be sure to pass that along to the women I know who have been raped.

“Inocente says there is no compensation for you. There is no compensation possible. Your suffering is forever and has the final word.”

Such a despairing view of reality.

 

[Cheiron]

Again, a really, really impoverished understanding of infinitude and basic math.

Oops!

Still not sure what you’re referencing?

Are you taking a fundamentalist’s reading of the Scriptures here?

You know the saying…scratch an atheist, find a fundamentalist…

I object specifically to a classic concept of hell in which people are burned. I don’t have a problem with punishment, but I do have a problem with cruel and unusual punishment. In my opinion, a just God would never sentence someone to cruel and unusual punishment.

 

[goout]

I object specifically to a classic concept of hell in which people are burned. I don’t have a problem with punishment, but I do have a problem with cruel and unusual punishment. In my opinion, a just God would never sentence someone to cruel and unusual punishment.

Can you see that we believe hell is chosen?

Can you also see that the Church does not propose hell as necessarily literalist flames, like from a bbq grill?

You are seeing this with fundamentalist eyes.

 

[Cheiron]

Can you see that we believe hell is chosen?

Yes, I do understand.

Can you also see that the Church does not propose hell as necessarily literalist flames, like from a bbq grill?

In that case, my objections are invalid.

You are seeing this with fundamentalist eyes.

Yet there is a big difference between fundamentalists and me. I don’t believe hell exists.

 

[goout]

Yes, I do understand.

In that case, my objections are invalid.

Yet there is a big difference between fundamentalists and me. I don’t believe hell exists.

What you don’t believe in is a fundamentalist caricature. Even thought you don’t believe in it, that is your frame of reference, and you keep throwing that up for objection.

We don’t believe in it either.

So given that, what is it you are trying to accomplish here? It doesn’t seem to be good-will discussion.

 

[Tomdstone]

Can you also see that the Church does not propose hell as necessarily literalist flames, like from a bbq grill?

I don’t see that. Where is that written down infallibly that hell does not have fire? There is a book on Purgatory on the EWTN site and it is approved by the Cardinal Patriarch of Lisbon: It is called Read me or Rue it. It says that Purgatory “is a prison of fire in which nearly all [saved] souls are plunged after
death and in which they suffer the intensest pain.”
“So grievous is their suffering that one minute in this awful fire seems
like a century.
St. Thomas Aquinas, the Prince of Theologians, says that the fire of
Purgatory is equal in intensity to the fire of Hell, and that the slightest
contact with it is more dreadful than all the possible sufferings of this
Earth!”
“St. Augustine, the greatest of the Holy Doctors, teaches that to be
purified of their faults previous to being admitted to Heaven, souls after
death are subjected to a fire more penetrating, more dreadful than anything
we can see, or feel, or conceive in this life.”
ewtn.com/library/SPIRIT/READRUE.TXT

 

[inocente]

Harm can never be undone but the victim is not alone. As Pascal pointed out, Jesus is in agony until the end of the world and shares the suffering of everyone. The victims of atrocities will be glorified and united to Him in heaven whereas those who don’t repent will reap the punishment they deserve by being isolated and frustrated by being incapable of inflicting their will on others.

BTW There are no nightmares in heaven…

Does anyone deserve to reap punishment for one billion years? Still not even one moment closer to an eternity of punishment. One trillion trillion trillion years and still no closer to an eternity of punishment.

Some theologies seem to lack all empathy and compassion. Not to mention justice.

BTW How exactly does someone go from suffering the Holocaust yesterday to no nightmares in heaven today? Doesn’t that trivialize the Holocaust? Doesn’t it trivialize all pain and sorrow? Suffering is part of what made us who we are, part of our souls, take it away and we are no longer whole, we’re lobotomized, Disneyfied. Sounds like the Matrix on an eternal morphine drip.

 

[inocente]

wow.
I’ll be sure to pass that along to the women I know who have been raped.

“Inocente says there is no compensation for you. There is no compensation possible. Your suffering is forever and has the final word.”

Such a despairing view of reality.

Yikes, how many women do you know who have been raped? Tell me which country so I can avoid ever going there.

But sure, ask the women how many tickets to Disney will compensate them. Or how much money. Or what size condo in which neighborhood in heaven will compensate. Then you’ll know the going rate - one rape is worth X.

I suggest you might want to think about whether compensation culture really does provide a moral currency.

 

[goout]

Yikes, how many women do you know who have been raped? Tell me which country so I can avoid ever going there.

1. Why does it matter how many? You brought up the awful subject, then you seem to deny that it happens.

But sure, ask the women how many tickets to Disney will compensate them. Or how much money. Or what size condo in which neighborhood in heaven will compensate. Then you’ll know the going rate - one rape is worth X.

I suggest you might want to think about whether compensation culture really does provide a moral currency.

Christianity is not a compensation culture. That is what you are throwing up.
You are the one using a compensation paradigm, and now you project it on to others.

(your post is extremely offensive, I decline to continue)

 

[Charlemagne_III]

In my opinion, a just God would never sentence someone to cruel and unusual punishment.

Hell is the punishment the sinner has chosen for himself. So why would it be cruel and unusual punishment to be kept out of the sight of God forever when that is exactly what one has chosen for oneself? God gives us a choice between eternal reward and eternal suffering. The fool chooses eternal suffering. God does not force himself upon us and does not suffer the company of fools who say in their heart there is no God.

 

[Cheiron]

What you don’t believe in is a fundamentalist caricature. Even thought you don’t believe in it, that is your frame of reference, and you keep throwing that up for objection.

We don’t believe in it either.

So given that, what is it you are trying to accomplish here? It doesn’t seem to be good-will discussion.

I thought at least some people here believed in hell as a place of torture. And I tried to point out that such a place is incompatible with a just God, in my opinion. You answered my objection and I have nothing more to add. Thank you for your answers, they were most helpful. Sincerely.

 

[Peter_Plato]

That doesn’t work. Suppose someone is violently gang raped. No amount of bliss can compensate. After a thousand years of bliss she will still have nightmares.

Now imagine she was punished by being gang raped for 1000 years. An infinity of bliss would not be nearly long enough to undo the harm.

It wouldn’t be an “infinity of bliss” defined as whatever you take to be what bliss is going on for infinity. It would be a complete and unbounded participation in the unending bounty of God himself.

It isn’t a question of some definable quality enduring for a thousand, a million or infinite number of years, more like an unfathomable state of timeless being.

 

[Cheiron]

Hell is the punishment the sinner has chosen for himself. So why would it be cruel and unusual punishment to be kept out of the sight of God forever when that is exactly what one has chosen for oneself? God gives us a choice between eternal reward and eternal suffering. The fool chooses eternal suffering. God does not force himself upon us and does not suffer the company of fools who say in their heart there is no God.

It’s only torture I objected to. But that has been answered now by both you and goout. So I have nothing more to add. Thank you for your time and patience. Sincerely.