The atheists best argument?

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And saying God is the source of good is different than saying God is morally good. Not sure I’m discounting the latter, but it’s flawed if you take what it is to be a good human and say that’s what it takes to be a good God.
Its fine if you want to say that God is super different and the source of goodness. But if you want to argue that those things mean that something like “child abuse” might actually be a net good in the world, then you are not so much saying “we don’t understand God” as you are saying “we don’t actually know which things are good or evil.”
 
So in the above example, there is a sense in which God would make us not free to disobey the “accelerate to the ground” rule just by willing it. However, we clearly still have a choice, we can try to disobey, even if we won’t succeed.
If you try to disobey but can’t because God won’t let you, how is that freedom? :confused:
 
If you try to disobey but can’t because God won’t let you, how is that freedom? :confused:
Because the issue here is that we should have free will. The only thing we need to have free will is the ability to freely will things. What happens after we freely will something is irrelevant. Unless you think we need to be omnipotent, and that what we freely will always ends up happening.
 
Because the issue here is that we should have free will. The only thing we need to have free will is the ability to freely will things. What happens after we freely will something is irrelevant. Unless you think we need to be omnipotent, and that what we freely will always ends up happening.
You’re confusing free will with potency.
You wondered why a human being cannot be a bird, simply because the human beings is inclined to will it.
A human being is not a bird and doesn’t have the power to become a bird or behave like one in any really way, drunken wedding dances notwithstanding. Really don’t know what else to say on that. Some things are self evident.
Willing against nature is not freedom, it is slavery to the self. Slavery of the will to one’s unnatural passions and desires causes un-reason and evil to reign and multiply.
 
You’re confusing free will with potency.
You wondered why a human being cannot be a bird, simply because the human beings is inclined to will it.
A human being is not a bird and doesn’t have the power to become a bird or behave like one in any really way, drunken wedding dances notwithstanding. Really don’t know what else to say on that. Some things are self evident.
Willing against nature is not freedom, it is slavery to the self. Slavery of the will to one’s unnatural passions and desires causes un-reason and evil to reign and multiply.
I was not doing any wondering. I was explicitly saying that there are things we are capable of willing, but incapable of actualizing (e.g. personal flight, or turning into a bird.) I was asserting that such restrictions do not detract from our free will. I was furthermore asserting that God could have created similar impediments to actualizing evil in the world without detracting from our free will.
 
I was not doing any wondering. I was explicitly saying that there are things we are capable of willing, but incapable of actualizing (e.g. personal flight, or turning into a bird.) I was asserting that such restrictions do not detract from our free will. I was furthermore asserting that God could have created similar impediments to actualizing evil in the world without detracting from our free will.
Right. That’s the same thing as saying that human beings should be allowed to fly,.

God should have…or could have…but he didn’t.

If he creates impediments to our free will, then we are not free to love. You can’t have it both ways.
 
I was asserting that such restrictions do not detract from our free will. I was furthermore asserting that God could have created similar impediments to actualizing evil in the world without detracting from our free will.
Right. That’s the same thing as saying that human beings should be allowed to fly,.

God should have…or could have…but he didn’t.

If he creates impediments to our free will, then we are not free to love. You can’t have it both ways.
I guess your response makes sense if you don’t think about it.

I said that restrictions on our abilities (e.g. we can’t fly through will alone) DO NOT constitute impediments to our free will. To which you responded “If he creates impediments to our free will, then we are not free to love.” What are you actually trying to say? Are you saying that you think our inability to fly DOES constitute an impediment to our free will?

Also, I do not understand why my previous statement is equivalent saying that humans should be able to fly. As far as I know, an omnibenevolent God has no preference one way or the other regarding “human flight.” God is free to make a world with one or the other, and I have no reason to think that we should have flight. But I DO know that an omnibenevolent God prefers not-evil. Therefore we should have not-evil.
 
I expect God to be, at a minimum, as moral as ordinary human beings. I hold God to the same standard as humans: If you know a crime is about to happen or is happening, you’ll have to report it to the police. People and gods who fail this test act immorally and even criminally.
All rational beings that are not omniscient and omnipotent living in communion have a duty to protect one another and ought to report evil doers to the appropriate authority.

However, there is no “appropriate authority” to report to for an omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent being. By definition He is the ultimate authority.
It isn’t my job to find child abusers. I’m not part of the police force. To follow your analogy: You’re blaming a marketer for failing to find customers for a company he doesn’t work for. Also, we’re talking about crime and not about selling a product.
Do you work for the human race? The child, the abuser, you and I are in this community. Do not all of us have rights and obligations one to the other? Does the child have a right to protection? Is your moral obligation to the child no greater than my inanimate home security system? It also calls the police if it “senses” an illegal entry.
This is not about me; this is about what God can do. Yet even a simple phone call to the police station is too much to ask of a supposedly omnipotent God. To point the finger at me and what I have done is to completely miss the point and, worse, to deflect the issue. Sinnce you have avoided the fact that God breaches criminal law, I will ask you directly:
Yes this is about you and me. A simple suggestion to your or my conscience from God to call the police is sufficient. God works through His creatures iff they will to cooperate.
  1. Do you agree God has a moral duty to report a crime that is about to happen and 2) that His failure to do so is a crime in itself and should lead to punishment for Him?
The question as put is nonsensical. The only duties an omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent being has are those duties He assigns to Himself - His covenants with mankind. Since such a being has no superior, there is no one to report to.

Is it a good act for one to report a crime? Yes. We believe all goodness comes from God so anyone, including atheists, who do good acts first receive the good idea from God.

God initiates all your good acts. If one dismisses God’s prompting to do good acts then one sins. You report; God decides.
 
Its fine if you want to say that God is super different and the source of goodness. But if you want to argue that those things mean that something like “child abuse” might actually be a net good in the world, then you are not so much saying “we don’t understand God” as you are saying “we don’t actually know which things are good or evil.”
Please demonstrate how that follows from my position.
 
But I DO know that an omnibenevolent God prefers not-evil. Therefore we should have not-evil.
While preferential to you, you can’t demonstrate that this necessarily follows from the premise, nor do I think any being lacking full knowledge (omniscience) could make such a demonstration. It’s nothing more than a personal opinion.
 
There’s one small problem with your definition of morality:
It has no objective standard and so there can be no evaluation. Right?
If you evaluate something, your evaluation is in reference to something else which is true and durable.
If you believe in nothing objectively true and durable, you have no evaluation, you simply have whim, passion, opinion, arbitrariness. And so if this is the case, why would you even object to the abuse of persons if one person desires that abuse?
You have no moral case because you have no reference.
Broadly speaking I’d say that moral actions are those that allow humans to live and prosper and immoral are those actions that do not. I evaluate actions by looking at statistics, polls and other empirical data. Societies prosper when all humans have some basic rights: individual autonomy, property rights and a lot of other stuff. Societies where those rights are not respected generally tend to do much worse compared to societies where those rights are respected. Without respect for property, there can be no trade, no economy and then it will be very hard to get the stuff necessary to improve one’s life.

Since child abuse is causing much pain and suffering, it’s profoundly immoral to abuse children. It’s also immoral to let it happen if you have the power to stop it with a single phone call to the police.
And you say “I don’t agree morality is limited to human beings”.
Then you believe in God. 🤷
That contradicts your a-theism. This is seriously puzzling.
I think decisions can be moral or immoral too. When I say that someone is moral or immoral, I measure the guy by his actions.
Your position assumes you are the moral standard, since there is nothing else to refer it to.
By saying God is held to a standard, you make yourself the holder of that standard (makes you God), which seems to contradict your a-theism.
I think facts about the causes of happiness is the objective standard. If God is the standard for morality, then morality is completely subjective and arbitrary, because what is moral one day can be immoral the next by a snap of His fingers.
I never said God didn’t intervene. I said he has no moral obligation to. I’d say God is a much higher standard than us, but that doesn’t mean acting as a human and then more. And I fail to see how the Euthyphro dilemma comes into play. Please enlighten me.

I may extrapolate on being as good later, but you’re right, discussion is pointless on that front until we’re on the same page, meaning all your objections fall flat as they are about a being I don’t believe to exist. If you are going to continue to object, it may mean simple internet discussion isn’t enough and you’ll have to do further research on your own.
You said that God was being itself, now you’re saying that God is a much higher standard than us. :confused:

You are not willing to apply a moral standard to God (whatever that word means to you) and you’re saying God has no obligation to intervene and prevent evil, even though He knows about it and can intervene. How moral standards can know things is unclear to me. Omniscience requires a brain to store that knowledge. Moral standards are abstract concepts without brains. You also seem uncertain about whether God is good at all:
And saying God is the source of good is different than saying God is morally good. Not sure I’m discounting the latter, but it’s flawed if you take what it is to be a good human and say that’s what it takes to be a good God.
Well, that’s the main point. If you don’t want to assert that God is good, then we’re done.
 
All rational beings that are not omniscient and omnipotent living in communion have a duty to protect one another and ought to report evil doers to the appropriate authority.

However, there is no “appropriate authority” to report to for an omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent being. By definition He is the ultimate authority.
Because God is higher in rank He doesn’t have to report crime to the police? That doesn’t make sense to me. Everyone is obliged to report crime.
Do you work for the human race? The child, the abuser, you and I are in this community. Do not all of us have rights and obligations one to the other? Does the child have a right to protection? Is your moral obligation to the child no greater than my inanimate home security system? It also calls the police if it “senses” an illegal entry.
Ofcourse we have to care about each other in the community.
Yes this is about you and me. A simple suggestion to your or my conscience from God to call the police is sufficient. God works through His creatures iff they will to cooperate.
So what God can and can’t do on earth is restrained by humans willing to cooperate?
The question as put is nonsensical. The only duties an omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent being has are those duties He assigns to Himself - His covenants with mankind. Since such a being has no superior, there is no one to report to.
Is it a good act for one to report a crime? Yes. We believe all goodness comes from God so anyone, including atheists, who do good acts first receive the good idea from God.
God initiates all your good acts. If one dismisses God’s prompting to do good acts then one sins. You report; God decides.
If humans do good things: God gets the credit. If humans do bad things, God has nothing to do with it. If God can only do good, then it becomes meaningless to say that God is good. Because that means that God does whatever God does. 🤷

I’m glad to hear you say that God can’t call the police himself. That means He is not in breach of the criminal law. It does negate His omnipotence, to put it mildly. If He can’t even make a simple phone call, He is less able than humans. Why call such a being God at all.
 
You are not willing to apply a moral standard to God (whatever that word means to you) and you’re saying God has no obligation to intervene and prevent evil, even though He knows about it and can intervene. How moral standards can know things is unclear to me. Omniscience requires a brain to store that knowledge. Moral standards are abstract concepts without brains. You also seem uncertain about whether God is good at all:
God doesn’t have a brain? Anyway, you’re taking a typo of mine and running wild with it. God isn’t a set of moral standards. He is, however, a being that isn’t just higher than us, but truly something that transcends all categories. My point is that God doesn’t have some lower bar. That doesn’t mean he must behave as a human. It’s kind of like saying “A good orange is orange in color, therefore good men must also be orange in color.” It’s a non-sequitur.
Well, that’s the main point. If you don’t want to assert that God is good, then we’re done.
God is Good. You keep making a categorical error and trying to treat God as some superhuman. He is not good in that he behaves good (though he does), he is goodness itself. It’s more of a noun than an adjective. Goodness is convertible with his Being, as well as his Power, Knowledge, etc . . .

Goodness is being. Evil is a deprivation of being. For a finite object, we are looking at how well something instantiates what it is. A good triangle is a closed shape connected by three geodesics. (A good euclidean triangle furthermore has angles that add up to 180 degrees). A failure for a real triangle to instantiate it’s form perfectly, such as it not being a perfectly closed shape, or having imperfectly straight sides, are deficiencies in it instantiating its being. It’s what makes it no longer a good triangle. Living beings have their form as well, and they also have ends as part of it. Living, growing, reproducing. These ends are intrinsic to what something is, and a good squirrel, for example, is one that not only has four legs and a bushy tail and scampers up trees, but one that stores acorns in its abode for winter instead of rocks, and successfully pursues its end as a living animal. Humans are animals as well, but we are rational beings, and these furthermore come with ends that are intrinsic to what we are and to which good humans pursue. It’s only a moral issue when it comes down to rational choices regarding these ends and our actions. But the better we instantiate the moral ends of a human being, the better we live our lives as moral beings. To act otherwise is actually a deprivation of being, being meaning our existence and instantiation of what we are.

God is not a biological being. He’s not a material being. He’s not a temporal being. He’s not *a *spiritual being. He’s not even *a *being. He’s Being itself. He is Existence. What he is is no different than that he is. He is full actuality with no potential in himself. He is simply being, and being is convertible with goodness. Everything is good insofar as it is. It’s when a being rationally chooses to act against what it is (and the ends intrinsic to it), to create some type of non-being in itself (as it’s final causes for being, that is, its ends, is a part of its being), that evil is done.

God is Good. But he’s not some individual who behaves morally, if that’s what you’re asking. And the issue there isn’t even really the moral part, it’s the treating of him as some type of individual. You pull God into the realm of creatures and no longer speak of God when you do so.

Your posts seems to be missing my repeated stressing on the use of analogous language in reference to God. It doesn’t mean I’m saying God is not good. It means I’m saying that, when we say God is good, we mean it analogously to how we understand good, and we can illustrate that analogy by understanding the different ways we speak analogously in everyday language, and we mean in it the sense of that common thread that runs between all analogous uses of good, not as simply a good human or moral good as applied to human beings.

But if you reject the use of analogous language in general, we’re talking past each other. And if you won’t recognize analogous language, then it might be more beneficial to stop speaking of God as good, and easier for you to understand if, instead of affirming any positive attribute, we simply say negative statements like “God is not not good” and “God is not evil” without affirming anything positive, because if you insist on univocal language, any positive description is ultimately inadequate to describe God. I don’t think univocal language is really proper, but at least we can avoid the anthropomorphic view of God.

But here we go off topic, but it’s why I find the problem of evil to be such a poor argument. Perhaps I rule it out too strongly, but it’s no home run or even any clear argument for the atheist, and is at best some type of gray area which ultimately rests on a conception of God I don’t believe in. And if the best arguments for atheism rest on rebuttals of a conception of God that is not the same one that’s been affirmed by theists or even just the Catholic church for millennia (you’d think that would be plenty of time to come to properly understand what you’re supposedly objecting to), I’m not going to find it that persuasive.

And it’s why I think that the argument about God’s apparent absence, which is not in any way a proof either, is the best argument against God’s existence.
 
Because God is higher in rank He doesn’t have to report crime to the police? That doesn’t make sense to me. Everyone is obliged to report crime.
God isn’t in the ranking at all. He is transcends any idea of ranking. He is not the most powerful being among many, as he is not a being among many.
 
Broadly speaking I’d say that moral actions are those that allow humans to live and prosper and immoral are those actions that do not. I evaluate actions by looking at statistics, polls and other empirical data.
Can you see that this is not moral evaluation?
It’s nothing more than “might makes right”.
Popular opinion and numbers rule the day.

If Jews are unpopular, then disposal of them is moral. Right?
If the elderly are statistically a drain on society, it is moral to dispose of them. Right?

You might say “I would never say that”, but it doesn’t matter what you think, because if a majority thinks otherwise, you lose.

Isn’t there something more durable for moral evaluation than numbers and polls?
 
While preferential to you, you can’t demonstrate that this necessarily follows from the premise, nor do I think any being lacking full knowledge (omniscience) could make such a demonstration. It’s nothing more than a personal opinion.
  1. (definition) An entity is omnibenevolent if and only if it always desires what is most good for each one of us
  2. (definition) Something is evil if and only if it is not good for us.
  3. (contra-positive of 2) If something is good for us, then it is not evil.
  4. (conclusion) An entity is omnibenevolent if and only if it desires things that are not evil for us.
 
Can you see that this is not moral evaluation?
It’s nothing more than “might makes right”.
Popular opinion and numbers rule the day.

If Jews are unpopular, then disposal of them is moral. Right?
No.
If the elderly are statistically a drain on society, it is moral to dispose of them. Right?
No.
You might say “I would never say that”, but it doesn’t matter what you think, because if a majority thinks otherwise, you lose.
Isn’t there something more durable for moral evaluation than numbers and polls?
Well, societies prosper when all humans have basic rights, such as individual autonomy. Societies that do not respect those rights, like nazi-Germany, are societies were people are extremely unhappy. Because they’re being killed for example. It’s just a fact that human rights are necessary for the well being of a society. And I already mentioned this in the parts you ignored.
Broadly speaking I’d say that moral actions are those that allow humans to live and prosper and immoral are those actions that do not. I evaluate actions by looking at statistics, polls and other empirical data. **Societies prosper when all humans have some basic rights: individual autonomy, property rights and a lot of other stuff. Societies where those rights are not respected generally tend to do much worse compared to societies where those rights are respected. Without respect for property, there can be no trade, no economy and then it will be very hard to get the stuff necessary to improve one’s life.

Since child abuse is causing much pain and suffering, it’s profoundly immoral to abuse children. It’s also immoral to let it happen if you have the power to stop it with a single phone call to the police.

…]

I think facts about the causes of happiness is the objective standard. If God is the standard for morality, then morality is completely subjective and arbitrary, because what is moral one day can be immoral the next by a snap of His fingers.**
 
Can you see that this is not moral evaluation?
It’s nothing more than “might makes right”.
Popular opinion and numbers rule the day.

If Jews are unpopular, then disposal of them is moral. Right?
If the elderly are statistically a drain on society, it is moral to dispose of them. Right?

You might say “I would never say that”, but it doesn’t matter what you think, because if a majority thinks otherwise, you lose.

Isn’t there something more durable for moral evaluation than numbers and polls?
That’s not the kind of poll he was talking about. You’re envisioning a poll that’s like “should we dispose of jews? (y/n)” He was talking about polls that measure well-being and life satisfaction, which would then be combined with other measures (e.g. life expectancy) to create a “human prosperity” index. Such an index would provide an objective basis for morality.
 
That’s not the kind of poll he was talking about. You’re envisioning a poll that’s like “should we dispose of jews? (y/n)” He was talking about polls that measure well-being and life satisfaction, which would then be combined with other measures (e.g. life expectancy) to create a “human prosperity” index. Such an index would provide an objective basis for morality.
Exactly. Thank you for mentioning the human prosperity index. I completely forgot about it, yet it’s so obvious I should have included that index in my first response. Thanks! 👍
 
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