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Siddhartha
Guest
Are there Sufi Bahai’s?
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Usbek_de_Perse
Guest
This brings out a subject that I have long mused on. The Baha’i writings have numerous liturgical motifs. “Give me to drink from the chalice of selflessness”, has, at least to me, clear Eucharistic reference. Also, as Jesus prayed in Gethsemene, “let this cup pass from me”. The Hidden Words citation above talks of a candle, yet Baha’is do not use candles in any liturgical way. I believe much of the Baha’i faith is laced with underlying liturgical referents, but Baha’is continue the dry form of selected readings at feast. In my mind, much of the “Maid of Heaven” writings are supremely dramatic, and are at least referents to liturgical architecture.
There are obvious reasons for this: most Baha’i feasts (obligatory gatherings every 19 days) take place in homes where the space is cramped and the space designed for family living. They have fairly few centers and only maybe 9 temples in the world. Few of these have anything more than auditoriums for worship.
I remember long conversations with another Baha’i back when I was one, both of us steeped in the Episcopal-Catholic tradition of liturgical music. I realized that nearly all Western music, had its origin in the liturgical needs of the Christian church. Since there are no liturgical imperatives for Baha’is, there is no need for Baha’is to develop music. They do, of course, and its quality goes from poor to quite good. But it is “occasional” music only.
Of course like others, they draw on excellent occasional music with a Judeo-Christian theme. At the dedication of the temple in Wilmette, Randall Thompson’s haunting 8 part “Ye shall have a song” from the Peacable Kingdom was performed, I think by the Northwestern University choir.
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Usbek_de_Perse
Guest
Excellent posting, my previous response above also is in relation to this posting.A piscopalian? Also goodDrag any Bahais you may meet along to Vespers on winter afternoons, when the light is fading but still sufficient to use candles alone. In a large stone church with good acoustics, and all of a small congregation chanting. It worked for me, when I was just starting to explore the devotional resources in Bahai scripture. The church (Reformed) was in Maastricht, near the Dutch/German/French language borders, and we chanted in French: ‘in our darkness, illumine us, with the fire which is never quenched.’ It would send shivers up and down your spine.
I also suffer from a devotional hunger in the Bahai community. We have a wafer-thin devotional culture. It’s not for lack of scriptural resources, and it’s not because of any authoritative strictures on forms of collective worship (those are misunderstandings, due to lack of knowledge), rather it’s because of misunderstandings that inhibit creativity, and because the community is barely a century old, and because we have not learned to learn from our Catholic, Episcopalian and Orthodox sister-communities. Bahai-christian interractions in the west have largely been with Protestants, and focused (on both sides) on biblical proofs and differing doctrines - on what divides us, which is quite fruitless.
There has even been an anti-devotional culture in the Bahai community. A few years ago some (presumably well-meaning) twerp submitted an item to the Guiness Book of Records: ‘largest religion with no ritual: the Bahai Faith.’ And Bahais were then waving this ‘objective recognition’ around as a point of pride. It’s not true of course, the Faith has rituals, but quite a few Bahais of the ultra-protestant kind think that ritual is somehow ‘a Bad Thing.’
This all makes it something of a challenge to develop a devotional life in a Bahai community. Bahai cannot be recommended as a “home” for someone looking for a spiritual home – more as a real challenge for someone prepared to start from virtually nothing on the stoniest soil and build something new that - all going well - will be enriching lives centuries later.
On my blog at
senmcglinn.wordpress.com/articles-online/
I have links to
as well as a lot of more theological stuff.
- an article on ‘exploring the Mashriqu’l-adhkar’ ,
- a translation of Baha’u’llah’s Tablet “Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah O Glad Tidings” (written to be chanted: it needs someone to make a setting)
- The meanings of the Mashriqu’l-adhkar
- Compilation on the Baha’i temple, the Mashriqu’l-Adhkar
Thanks for chatting: I’m motivated to do more.
~ Sen
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DavidMark
Guest
AngloCatholic1 & Usbek: The issue appears to be this: Would a sincere Bahá’í actually abjure belief in Bahá’u’lláh because of their need for congregational prayer? What was it that attracted you to Bahá’í in the first place? So you’re saying that your roots were too strong elsewhere to give yourself entirely to Bahá’u’lláh, and that congregational chanting or singing was not developed enough for you?
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Usbek_de_Perse
Guest
Your question is provocative and deserves a response. Many things caused doubts for me over the years, especially the issue of homosexuality. I am not gay, but I believe that if God put so many gays on His green earth, they must have the opportunity of meaningful partnering. This is still problematic for me, but at least I am in a place where I can question it.
I only commented on the nature of Baha’i worship. I did not complain about it.
For the last few years as a Baha’i, the only thing that kept me locked in was the confluence of prophesies between Daniel and Surat as-Sajda, which point to the year 1844. At some point all these majestic words need to amount to something, and they did little for me. I was lonely, always feeling apart from society, always different, and spiritually unhappy. I was not much of a Baha’i. I was a lousy teacher. And a lousy teacher is not much respected among Baha’is. I was tired of the squabbling and bickering in my small community, I was at a point where belief in Baha’u’llah was too far away.
Compare that with the awesome majesty of Jesus Christ, whose story continues to this day to inspire countless millions. Now, I am present with Him each week in the Eucharist.
I do not say Baha’u’llah was a fraud. I don’t think he was. I just don’t know, and the evidence is too thin in my mind to support continued affiliation with the Baha’i faith.
All these powerful words you post here are to me just words. They inspire those who are already believers. They do not inspire me.
Perhaps I am of the people of darkness who reject the manifestation in the prologue of the Aqdas. I remember the words in Arabic better than English. If so, may God have mercy on my soul.
There are other things I could say, but it is late.
My greatest sadness is that my daughters are, as of now, not baptized.
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Sen_McGlinn
Guest
I think Abdu’l-Baha would say, ‘go in peace’ or even “go with banners flying !” :
It’s one Faith. Keep shining
For something quite different to Vespers - check out “brian taraz” on google. There’s an infectious setting of Abdu’l-Baha’s ‘prayer for America’ at
youtube.com/americannationvideo
Brian also has titles such as Alif Lam Mim Raw and Ya Ta Ha which might appeal to you, since you like Arabic recitation, and ‘scripture rock’ which is biblical texts. I suppose there has always been a lot of experimentation with worship in Bahai communities: You-tube and the like have made it visible to us.
Thanks to your motivation, I’m going to blog something soon on the meanings of Mashriq. Then I will take on the idea that there is a restriction on ritual and collective prayer and the like. The fact that Bahais live alone or in very small communities is another difficulty in creating a devotional culture – especially if we imagine that it has to be done just with other Bahais. But the idea of the Mashriq is that it can be a place for all ‘religionists,’ to an extent that the mosques and churches cannot be, because the Mashriq is a separate institution to the community administration (House of Justice) and the Guardianship (doctrine). I can imagine that the same 3-fold distinction could be adopted and adapted in church orders
~ Sen
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Sen_McGlinn
Guest
Yes and no. Reciting dhikr (the Greatest name) is a daily Bahai practice, and we all use the ‘Seven Valleys’ and 'Four Valleys’ of Baha’u’llah as scripture and as ‘maps’ of the spiritual journey; we all talk about ‘mystic union’ and believe, to quote Shoghi Effendi, that “the core of religious faith is that mystic feeling which unites Man with God. This state of spiritual communion can be brought about and maintained by means of meditation and prayer. And this is the reason why Bahá’u’lláh has so much stressed the importance of worship. It is not sufficient for a believer merely to accept and observe the teachings. He should, in addition, cultivate the sense of spirituality which he can acquire chiefly by means of prayer.” (Directives from the Guardian, p. 86).
So you could say, Bahais are Sufis by definition. There are also Bahais who are more and less attuned to this aspect of the Bahai tradition. In this sense there are what Abdu’l-Baha calls Bahai dervishes, such as Sidq `Ali:
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arthra
Guest
For Siddartha…
Are there Sufi Baha’is?
Excellent question. There are citations from Rumi, Saadi, Hafiz and other poets in the Baha’i Writings but Baha’is are not Sufis themselves.
The Seven Valleys is modelled to an extent on The Conference of the Birds.
See:
bahai-library.com/writings/bahaullah/sv/
Sufis of course in Iran are Muslims and generally observe Islamic laws… and have their own cwenters of worship. Baha’is have their own administrative order, sites of pilgrimage, calendar and worship. Many Sufis are pantheistic while Baha’is are more theistic …
For Usbek:
You touch on something I think that is important… Baha’u’llah as you know encouraged the friends not to kiss rings, use pulpits or have priests or Mullahs so we have a plain order of worship that is the responsibility of each Baha’i… no socerdotal orders or “princes” of the church. No confession of sins to a priest and so on. So no spiritual elites.
Are there Sufi Baha’is?
Excellent question. There are citations from Rumi, Saadi, Hafiz and other poets in the Baha’i Writings but Baha’is are not Sufis themselves.
The Seven Valleys is modelled to an extent on The Conference of the Birds.
See:
bahai-library.com/writings/bahaullah/sv/
Sufis of course in Iran are Muslims and generally observe Islamic laws… and have their own cwenters of worship. Baha’is have their own administrative order, sites of pilgrimage, calendar and worship. Many Sufis are pantheistic while Baha’is are more theistic …
For Usbek:
You touch on something I think that is important… Baha’u’llah as you know encouraged the friends not to kiss rings, use pulpits or have priests or Mullahs so we have a plain order of worship that is the responsibility of each Baha’i… no socerdotal orders or “princes” of the church. No confession of sins to a priest and so on. So no spiritual elites.
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Usbek_de_Perse
Guest
My first response was inadequate. Over the years (30) of being a Baha’i, really since the beginning, I looked for plausible relationships between the western religions and Buddhism and Hinduism. There is near unanimity on the conclusion that Buddhism is not a theistic religion. How Buddha could then be a “Manifestation of God” was taken up by Jamshid Fozdar in two books that went so far beyond scholarly that I have heard prominent Baha’i scholars disparage them. Buddhism is not a theistic religion.
Christianity is a trinitarian religion. There is no denying that. Unless you explain away the traditions that developed directly following the writing of the Gospels, and the Gospels themselves, really, you are left with a trinitarian religion ab initio. The first know hymn is “Glory be to the Father, and to the Son and to the Holy Ghost! As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end, Amen.” So, unless you believe that the Gospels were perverted, an idea that I believe Abdu’l-Baha denied, you are left with little to go on.
Finally, and back to the confluence of prophesies around 1844 (for non-Baha’is and others I will explain only if asked). It happens that modern Biblical scholarship concludes that the book of Daniel was probably written around 200 BC, not 457 BC, so counting from that book does not help to establish prophesy, unless there is an event to occurr in about 100 years from now.
DavidMark, you are sincere in your beliefs, and I encourage you to pursue study. It was independent investigation of the truth that led me to question the Baha’i faith. But to be candid, I love the world I am in now. Reading your posting made me feel the straight-jacket of belief without joy that I felt for so long. I am not saying you are in that straight-jacket, but it makes me remember mine. Perhaps I am simply not one of the elect.
I remain on good terms with the woman who taught me the faith in 1973, I do not dislike Baha’is, but, at least for now, I have found my home in Christ.
p.s. In my earlier response, I mentioned homosexuality as an issue of importance to me (not because I personally am gay). I should say that since returning to Christianity, I have recognized the immense complexity of the issue, and I am not so sure as I was earlier. Still, at least in the Episcopal Church we are having the conversation.
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Jerusha
Guest
Any church that places a high value on unmarried celibacy has the right to consider homosexual behavior a sin. All others are practicing hypocrisy.
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Usbek_de_Perse
Guest
Wow, talk about apples and oranges!
Celibacy is a choice of the Western Church. It is optional; it could be changed tomorrow. You will not find one educated Catholic theologian or apologist who would disagree with this.
Homosexuality has been proscribed by all monotheistic religions, including Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and the Baha’i faith. (In the Baha’i faith, there is a scriptural prohibition of pederasty that has been “authoritatively” re-interpreted to proscribe homosexuality.)
Only one of these religions, and only part of that religion, places an emphasis on unmarried celibacy.
The prevalence of homosexuality in all societies has led me and others to question these moral proscriptions. I am of many minds, unfortunately. One one hand, we have clear scriptural statements, on the other we have obvious committed relationships that often are better models of fidelity and harmony than some heterosexual married relationships.
It does lead you to think a bit about these things. I know it comes as a shock, but there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreampt of in your apologetics.
And, methinks, all roads should lead to Jerusalem, where the redemptive sacrifice for all humanity was made. Why adopt a slogan of a pagan empire to refer to your particular denomination?
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arthra
Guest
In Baha’i Faith there are no monastic orders and we are encouraged to marry and raise up one who will make mention of God…
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Usbek_de_Perse
Guest
And this is true of Judaism, Islam, and Protestant and Anglican Christianity (though there are some Anglican monastics).
The Catholic Church makes a point of encouraging marriage and raising families as well. It is curious, however, that most of its saints are from the celibate life.
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arthra
Guest
Thanks Madaglan!
… I hadn’t been aware of that Center.
novabc.org/contact.php
That’s a beautiful Center!
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arthra
Guest
Yes and as you know we Baha’is believe there is one religion of God … for this dispensation no monastic orders.
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Siddhartha
Guest
That would depend upon how one defines “theistic”.
It’s true that in Buddhism, belief in the devas and maha-brahmas (the “gods”, who live, however temporarily, in the higher spiritual realms) will not in itself lead you to nirvana. But belief in the devas and maha-brahmas will definitely lead you to the higher spiritual realms, where they reside. Not everyone will reach nirvana in any one particular life, and not every Buddhist is aiming for nirvana in any particular life. The Buddha himself once gave a sermon on how to realize union with Brahma (one of the higher maha-brahma deities). His audience were brahmin youth, who had faith in Brahma, but not in Buddha, so the Buddha taught them how to reach the realm of Brahma. If they had been ready, the Buddha would have taught them how to transcend the Brahma-realm and realize nirvana.
I would characterize Buddhism as tradition that does not reject theism, but claims to go beyond it, a “trans-theistic” religion.
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DavidMark
Guest
Usbek: Thank you for writing more fully. To be you be your way…
Faith involves accepting what is said in the Verses, and participating in the development of the society and sciences. We know people are either one functioning sex or the other, not both. Maybe the genitals are not functioning and cannot be repaired now but perhaps later. Perhaps the person does not want to marry anyway. It is not absolutely obligatory; but having sex outside marriage is absolutely forbidden, and yet God can forgive whom He wishes.
For instance, a trans-sexual girl came to our Feast from the University, with the intention to write about the Baha’i attitudes to her impending lesbian marriage. She had many male characteristics, and even neglected to shave legs & sideburns etc. All she found with us was friendliness and acceptance. It may be harder for some than others to accept abnormalities. All are created by God.
(Perhaps it will be even harder when humans have diverged on different planets!)
I love the person, but remember the sign-post given by the Lord of Mankind, whose interest is not just in the individual, but the safety of the whole species. Marriage is for man and woman -one man and one woman. An interesting passage shall be shared:
Enter ye into wedlock, that after you another may arise in your stead. We, verily, have forbidden you lechery, and not that which is conducive to fidelity. Have ye clung unto the promptings of your nature, and cast behind your backs the statutes of God? Fear ye God, and be not of the foolish. But for man, who, on My earth, would remember Me, and how could My attributes and My names be revealed? Reflect, and be not of them that have shut themselves out as by a veil from Him, and were of those that are fast asleep. He that married not (Jesus Christ) could find no place wherein to abide, nor where to lay His head, by reason of what the hands of the treacherous had wrought. His holiness consisted not in the things ye have believed and imagined, but rather in the things which belong unto Us. Ask, that ye may be made aware of His station which hath been exalted above the vain imaginings of all the peoples of the earth. Blessed are they that understand.
(Baha’u’llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 49)
Here He is talking to the priests and says it is alright to marry, since priesthood is abolished. Of course, it continues with people who think they know better, and you have two ‘sacraments’ that are really at odds.
He is saying that the procreation of children should be within marriage, and that raising children to remember God is the purpose of creation. The whole question of how a childless couple can have children, thru surrogates say, is subject to debate.
(And why have women priests if prieshood is abrogated? It is a moot issue, especially if the status of women is raised worldwide. )
He warns us of lechery --and the implication is that the proper expression of the sex instinct is within the “fortress of well-being.” Could this be part of the reason for the problems of some priests and pederasty? Fidelity can still be demonstrated to God and family.
He says that the fact that Jesus was not married (not even secretly to the Magdalene) is not what made Him holy, but that Jesus and Baha’u’llah share a holiness that is above the world, and remains whether they are married or not.
Seek no sex at all except in nuptials.
Jerusha, You know Baha’is have put priests and pulpits behind them, and yet homosexuality is still considered the wrong path, and something for counselling and medicine to remedy. The full extent of this remedy is not known. People who are ‘gay’ are insisting their relationships be seen as legitimate, and are obviously resigned to an immoral path, because of a genetic predispostion.
Faith involves accepting what is said in the Verses, and participating in the development of the society and sciences. We know people are either one functioning sex or the other, not both. Maybe the genitals are not functioning and cannot be repaired now but perhaps later. Perhaps the person does not want to marry anyway. It is not absolutely obligatory; but having sex outside marriage is absolutely forbidden, and yet God can forgive whom He wishes.
For instance, a trans-sexual girl came to our Feast from the University, with the intention to write about the Baha’i attitudes to her impending lesbian marriage. She had many male characteristics, and even neglected to shave legs & sideburns etc. All she found with us was friendliness and acceptance. It may be harder for some than others to accept abnormalities. All are created by God.
(Perhaps it will be even harder when humans have diverged on different planets!)
I love the person, but remember the sign-post given by the Lord of Mankind, whose interest is not just in the individual, but the safety of the whole species. Marriage is for man and woman -one man and one woman. An interesting passage shall be shared:
Enter ye into wedlock, that after you another may arise in your stead. We, verily, have forbidden you lechery, and not that which is conducive to fidelity. Have ye clung unto the promptings of your nature, and cast behind your backs the statutes of God? Fear ye God, and be not of the foolish. But for man, who, on My earth, would remember Me, and how could My attributes and My names be revealed? Reflect, and be not of them that have shut themselves out as by a veil from Him, and were of those that are fast asleep. He that married not (Jesus Christ) could find no place wherein to abide, nor where to lay His head, by reason of what the hands of the treacherous had wrought. His holiness consisted not in the things ye have believed and imagined, but rather in the things which belong unto Us. Ask, that ye may be made aware of His station which hath been exalted above the vain imaginings of all the peoples of the earth. Blessed are they that understand.
(Baha’u’llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 49)
Here He is talking to the priests and says it is alright to marry, since priesthood is abolished. Of course, it continues with people who think they know better, and you have two ‘sacraments’ that are really at odds.
He is saying that the procreation of children should be within marriage, and that raising children to remember God is the purpose of creation. The whole question of how a childless couple can have children, thru surrogates say, is subject to debate.
(And why have women priests if prieshood is abrogated? It is a moot issue, especially if the status of women is raised worldwide. )
He warns us of lechery --and the implication is that the proper expression of the sex instinct is within the “fortress of well-being.” Could this be part of the reason for the problems of some priests and pederasty? Fidelity can still be demonstrated to God and family.
He says that the fact that Jesus was not married (not even secretly to the Magdalene) is not what made Him holy, but that Jesus and Baha’u’llah share a holiness that is above the world, and remains whether they are married or not.
Seek no sex at all except in nuptials.
J
jen_fla
Guest
dear baha’i friends,
i have been enjoying this thread and am glad to know that Catholics and baha’i have much in common. in fact far more in common than not, however, it is still important to understand where we differ.
you seem like wonderful people and i would be happy to call you neighbor and friend. your intent for peace is admirable, but i too am having a hard time understanding how the laws of classical logic can be so easily dismissed. please help me to understand your faith better by the following example:
let’s say jane doe has had no religion in her life, yet as of late has had a calling to come to know her God and to do His will. she reads about your religion and wonders about your notion that Jesus and mohammed are both manifestations of God. she has a married sister who has committed the sin of adultery. mohammed clearly taught that this woman is to be stoned to death whereas Jesus clearly taught to show this woman mercy and to let her live. how does she reconcile this? you answer:
ok, but here we are in the year 2009. jane wants to do the will of God at this very moment. does she pick up the stone or not? both Jesus and mohammed taught that this is how it is supposed to be from here on out and that no one can change this. your religion must offer some guidance in this matter. either you teach God wants her to pick up the stone or He does not. by choosing you are rejecting either a tenet of Christianity or islam that is and has always been taught.
how would you guide poor jane?
peace to you, your family and friends!
jen
i have been enjoying this thread and am glad to know that Catholics and baha’i have much in common. in fact far more in common than not, however, it is still important to understand where we differ.
you seem like wonderful people and i would be happy to call you neighbor and friend. your intent for peace is admirable, but i too am having a hard time understanding how the laws of classical logic can be so easily dismissed. please help me to understand your faith better by the following example:
let’s say jane doe has had no religion in her life, yet as of late has had a calling to come to know her God and to do His will. she reads about your religion and wonders about your notion that Jesus and mohammed are both manifestations of God. she has a married sister who has committed the sin of adultery. mohammed clearly taught that this woman is to be stoned to death whereas Jesus clearly taught to show this woman mercy and to let her live. how does she reconcile this? you answer:
i can accept that when the law of the Jews was given that it was time sensitive to that era and their tribe only, and when Christ came the golden rule replaced an eye for an eye.
ok, but here we are in the year 2009. jane wants to do the will of God at this very moment. does she pick up the stone or not? both Jesus and mohammed taught that this is how it is supposed to be from here on out and that no one can change this. your religion must offer some guidance in this matter. either you teach God wants her to pick up the stone or He does not. by choosing you are rejecting either a tenet of Christianity or islam that is and has always been taught.
how would you guide poor jane?
peace to you, your family and friends!
jen
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Usbek_de_Perse
Guest
What an uncharacteristically civil thread this has become! Cheers to all!
J
jen_fla
Guest
aye to that! :grouphug:
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