"The Baha'i Faith"

[planten]

Planten: 60% of Bahá’u’lláh’s Writings were in eloquent Arabic, and 40% in His sweet native Persian (Farsí). Try to understand when I say that Gleanings means a collection of some of His massive Writings, which cannot be contained in one volumne.

The divine Messengers ARE and ARE NOT God, as the reflection of the Sun in the Mirror, is and is not the Sun.

**D M, your this reply is better. I understand the example of the sun in the mirror. a good example. For that the mirror must be very clean and perfect. But still, it will be the image of the Sun in the mirror. It cannot be the Sun. Do you agree or not?
It would be very bad for any one to be very pious person and say that he was God. Man will always remain man and servant of God. Will never say that he was God.

Also, please explain what you had written earlier**:

Planten: Of course, we all die, and the soul persists, in a state conditioned by our choices and God’s grace. But for us, Christ is another sort of Being, pre-existent and Lord of Creation, the Logos, the Primal Will, God manifest –in order to teach us something of God Hidden

.

So Bahaullah believed that Christ was Lord of Creation, God manifest. That is exactly what the church teaches. So Baha’ism is another chapter of Christianity?? Is it?

Also at another place you had written that the one who was to come has come. That meaning Jesus had come in the shape of Bahaullah?. So Bahaullah is Jesus? It is so complicated, By some statements of Bahaullah, he is God. By other statements he is Jesus. What is all that please?

The writings of Bahaullah may be in Arabic or Persian, they should be available in original for every one to see. So where are they in original? please tell.

 

[Hadi]

The divine Messengers ARE and ARE NOT God, as the reflection of the Sun in the Mirror, is and is not the Sun.

Say [O Prophet]: "I am but a mortal man like all of you. It has been revealed unto me that your God is the One and Only God. Quran 18:110

 

[planten]

Say [O Prophet]: "I am but a mortal man like all of you. It has been revealed unto me that your God is the One and Only God. Quran 18:110

**Hadi, your post is good. But bahai’s do not believe in the Quran. They have cancelled the Quran and replaced it by their own books ( one or two). One from Baab and the other from Bahaullah. Quran has no meaning and no use for the Baha’is. Quran is invalid, ineffective.

Whereas, the muslims believe that Muhammad was the last law bearing prophet of God. Quran is the last revealed book. It is the last testament for the entire mankind till the day of Judgement. No new prophet will now appear in the word with any new code (law) for the mankind.

But perhaps, Bahaullah is not any prophet of God. He is the God himself. There is much difference in that matter. To be a God is different to being a prophet of God. WE do not know whether Bahaullah is a God or he is a prophet of God.

**.

 

[DavidMark]

We should acknowledge the holy and wondrous Scriptures, for failing to do this we have failed to acknowledge the truth of this blessed verse. For it is evident that whoso hath failed to acknowledge the truth of the Qur’án hath in reality failed to acknowledge the truth of the preceding Scriptures. (Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 204)

It is strange to me that I had posted this earlier, and now it is claimed that Baha’is invalidate Qur’an. The problem is not one of corruption of previous texts or disregard for the present texts, but mis-interpretation in each age. Muslims have learned that every Rasúl (Prophet) brought a Book which had its own period (ajal) and the people (umma) were to follow the Book until the Day of Judgment, which for the Christians, was when the Word came down as the Qur’án, just as it had come down as Jesus. Now, many many new Books has come down from God, because there are Twin Messengers: the Báb & Bahá’u’lláh, and between them, there are at least a million, if not two million, new ayats (verses) whereas there were only about 30,000 in the Old and New Testaments and over 6,000 in the Qur’án, which cleared up so much from the past, as you know.

** Whosoever desireth, let him turn aside from this counsel and whosoever desireth let him choose the path to his Lord.**(Baha’u’llah, from Tablet to Ahmad, Baha’i Prayers, p. 209)

 

[DavidMark]

Friend planten: On a material matter: The Original Writings in Baha’u’llah’s own hand, or the Báb’s, are in the Archives building and Center for the Study of the Text, in Haifa, Israel, on Mount Carmel. Translations are being made as fast as possible for those people who read different languages. It is not expected that everyone learn to read the originals in Arabic and Persian, unless they have the skill and desire to do so. Thousands of years in the future, this will not be an issue.

Bahá’u’lláh, as I have explained several times, is outwardly a Prophet, like Jesus and Muhammad, Who brings the Word of God to humanity. In ancient times, it was recorded from oral traditions, written down later. It existed in Muhammad’s own lifetime, and was later compiled. In this Day of Days, it is written, either in His own blessed hand, or dictated to a secretary or amanuensis, and verified by His eye and His seals.
But Baha’u’llah explains more about the nature of the Divine Manifestations than ever we knew before. These Divine Manifestations are in between the Realm of the Absolute UnKnowable Essence, which is forever unknown even to Them, and humanity. When they look up, it is as the reflection of the divine attributes, like the sun in the mirror, looking at the sun.
They are the first Creation, from which everything else is created. When they look down, they behold the rest of creation reaching up to Them, as the Manifsetation of God. This is not new to Islam. This in-between station is the Sadrat’ul-Muntaha, (the Tree beyond which there is no passing) This is a renewal of Islam. Just as Abraham, Moses, Jesus and their followers were “muslims”, Baha’is are now the new “muslims”.
Think of a child who has learned arithmetic, and progresses on to trigonometry and algebra and calculus and theoretical cosmology etc…

(I hope the Catholics are reading and thinking about this too!)

 

[DavidMark]

Dear planten: How many times do I have to say that Jesus died on the cross? But His Everlasting Pre-existent Spirit did not die, but re-appears on the PRomised Day.
Also, none of the Messengers are gods, they are not God, confined in a body.
But, whoever obeys Them is obeying God. Whoever ignores Them ignores God.
They are like a Vicegerant, or Representative of God on earth, to Lead by Loving.
This is a point that seems clear to me, but others cannot seem to grasp.

I have been asked to read and compare Papal Encyclicals and Baha’i letters-- that there are many common threads. For whoever is interested i have a free Microsoft Word file that takes the Pope John XXIII Pacem en Terris and shows how all the principles in it were promoted earlier by Bahá’u’lláh. Another such file address all issues pertinent to Catholics and is called Materials for ABCD (a Baha’i-Catholic Dialogue) email: NewEraBooks@aol.com

Baha’i does not believe that the culmination will be a world theocracy, if that means men arrogating to themselves divine power, as in Iran, which imprisons and kills Baha’is.
The Kingdom of God on earth was promised. How do you think it will appear?

**Therefore do not be anxious saying, “What shall we eat?” or “What shall we wear?”…But seek first His Kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things shall be yours as well. **~ (Matthew 6:31-33)
**The Kingdom is Mine. I, Myself, am, of Mine own right, its Ruler. **~Bahá’u’lláh, GWB, p.33

 

[NoWings]

** Whosoever desireth, let him turn aside from this counsel and whosoever desireth let him choose the path to his Lord.**(Baha’u’llah, from Tablet to Ahmad, Baha’i Prayers, p. 209)

I never have understood why the English translators use King James sounding English when these were written in the 19th century. I assume to make them appear more authentic or something.

 

[LatinoXandY]

Yes, Mateo, I have encountered people from the Bahi faith, if i am not mistaken, they are people who dont have a particular religion, they say that all of religions are good, they like to go to Churches, Mosques and Temples. They go just about anywhere they feel like going. My Question to you is, Do you really think that Jesus wanted that? Do you think that Jesus came to save us? Do think that God established One Faith, One Baptism and One Family?Do you think that Jesus becoming human was just for the sake of it?
All this questions are answered in by the church and in sacred scripture!

I pray this email finds you all in good health.

I was wondering if anyone has had any encounters with a non-catholic religion called the “Baha’i Faith”? I am currently a student at a university and have encountered and dialogued with many different types of religions. This one in particular has given me a little more of a headache and is tougher to break down due to my lack of biblical and doctrinal knowledge within the Catholic Chruch. They claim to have 6.5 million members and say they have been growing fast. I was just wondering if anyone else has had encounters with this “Baha’i Faith” and if so how has it gone?

Paz de Christo,

Mateo

 

[Jerusha]

I have been asked to read and compare Papal Encyclicals and Baha’i letters-- that there are many common threads. For whoever is interested i have a free Microsoft Word file that takes the Pope John XXIII Pacem en Terris and shows how all the principles in it were promoted earlier by Bahá’u’lláh. Another such file address all issues pertinent to Catholics and is called Materials for ABCD (a Baha’i-Catholic Dialogue) email: NewEraBooks@aol.com

Baha’i does not believe that the culmination will be a world theocracy, if that means men arrogating to themselves divine power, as in Iran, which imprisons and kills Baha’is.
The Kingdom of God on earth was promised. How do you think it will appear?

Very interesting responses. Baha’i apparently has a governmental structure within the community, hierarchial, extending up to Haifa. I totally agree with your statement about theocratic civil government.

Right now I am still reading on the other website.

I have read the Quran, and find it difficult to understand in places. The response to violence is similar to that of Mormonism, and therefore unacceptable. I find Baha’i readings to be acceptable and understandable.

 

[planten]

We should acknowledge the holy and wondrous Scriptures, for failing to do this we have failed to acknowledge the truth of this blessed verse. For it is evident that whoso hath failed to acknowledge the truth of the Qur’án hath in reality failed to acknowledge the truth of the preceding Scriptures. (Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 204)

**Thanks D M, you have in a way validated Quran. But it is well known that Baab sahib abrogated the Quran and said that it was not valid any more. Same was said by Bahaullah too. They replaced the law (Code) of the Quran as no more valid and introduced their own thesis (law). Do you deny it?

What is the meaning of acknowledging the truth of the Quran at the same time saying it is no more valid?

Anyhow, you have brought something about Quran. That is good. Keep it up**.

 

[abirdrrl]

I never have understood why the English translators use King James sounding English when these were written in the 19th century.

The United States Baha’i website explains this as such:

Shoghi Effendi chose a slightly archaic form of English that echoes the King James version of the Bible, a style that acts as bridge between modern English and the classical Persian and Arabic style in which Baha’u’llah wrote.

 

[Jerusha]

The United States Baha’i website explains this as such:

Shoghi Effendi chose a slightly archaic form of English that echoes the King James version of the Bible, a style that acts as bridge between modern English and the classical Persian and Arabic style in which Baha’u’llah wrote.

Similar to the use of KJE in the BOM. However, not reflecting fraud, but reflecting the fact that the “classical…style” was analogous to KJE?

 

[abirdrrl]

**Thanks D M, you have in a way validated Quran. But it is well known that Baab sahib abrogated the Quran and said that it was not valid any more. Same was said by Bahaullah too. They replaced the law (Code) of the Quran as no more valid and introduced their own thesis (law). Do you deny it?

What is the meaning of acknowledging the truth of the Quran at the same time saying it is no more valid?

Anyhow, you have brought something about Quran. That is good. Keep it up**.

Essentially, there are two types of divine Law. Abdu’l Baha explains this:
**
the Law of God is divided into two parts. One is the fundamental basis which comprises all spiritual things – that is to say, it refers to the spiritual virtues and divine qualities; this does not change nor alter: it is the Holy of Holies, which is the essence of the Law of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb, and Bahá’u’lláh, and which lasts and is established in all the prophetic cycles. It will never be abrogated, for it is spiritual and not material truth; it is faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 46)**

The parts of the Qu’ran that uphold these spiritual truths are not aborogated.

However, the other type of Law, the temporal law, is often aborogated by the next Manifestation:

**The second part of the Religion of God, which refers to the material world, and which comprises fasting, prayer, forms of worship, marriage and divorce, the abolition of slavery, legal processes, transactions, indemnities for murder, violence, theft and injuries – this part of the Law of God, which refers to material things, is modified and altered in each prophetic cycle in accordance with the necessities of the times.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 47)**

The way Baha’u’llah and the Bab aborogated the temporal laws of the Qu’ran is similar to how Christ aborogated the Mosaic law:

**Consider, could the Law of the Old Testament be enforced at this epoch and time? No, in the name of God! it would be impossible and impracticable; therefore, most certainly God abrogated the laws of the Old Testament at the time of Christ.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 94)

**

Thus, even though Christians eat pork, do not observe the seventh-day sabbath, or offer burnt offerings, they still acknowledge the Truth of the Hebrew Scriptures. In the same way, even though we don’t observe the laws of the Qu’ran, we acknowledge its truth.

 

[planten]

Dear planten: How many times do I have to say that Jesus died on the cross? But His Everlasting Pre-existent Spirit did not die, but re-appears on the PRomised Day.

**Please do not blame me. You have come around with some difficulty. Even now you are not clear. I cannot understand how a body only dies and spirit stays very well in it. We all know that body dies and soul departs.

Do you mean that the spirit of Jesus remained well safe intact inside Jesus while his body died?? How come, that happened?

Anyhow, you have now sided with the christians and gone quite against the teachings of the quran which says that Jesus did not die on the cross. Quran also said that his enemies could not kill him, definitely not killed him. So Bahaullah departs from the Muslim view and is well coincided with the church faith on that christian point.

I tell you that no Muslim believes that Jesus died on the cross, no sect of Muslims believes that. So how did bahaullah get the news that Jesus died on the cross.?

I feel that the Iranian Mullas were justified in isolating the Baha’is from themselves due to such bad beliefs as stated above. But I do not like that they should kill any one (baha’i) for that reason.
**

Also, none of the Messengers are gods, they are not God, confined in a body.
But, whoever obeys Them is obeying God. Whoever ignores Them ignores God.
They are like a Vicegerant, or Representative of God on earth, to Lead by Loving.
This is a point that seems clear to me, but others cannot seem to grasp.

**Please, may I modify your words slightly. See below:

Also, none of the messengers are gods, they are not God, confined in a body.
But, whoever obeys them is obeying God. Whoever ignores them ignores God.
They are like a Vicegerant, or Representative of God on earth, to Lead by Loving.
This is a point that seems clear to me, but others cannot seem to grasp.**

I hope you understand what i mean. No harm. The messengers are reps pf God on earth. That much is good. I hope none of them become a god. Now I ask you:

1. Is Bahaullah a messenger of God?
2. Is Bahaullah a God?
3. Is Jesus a messenger of God?
4. Is Jesus a man only and messenger of God?
5. Is Jesus God?

Please tell in clear words and keep in mind the other many messengers of God such as Noah and Abraham and Moses…

Thanks. We are proceeding to some point.

 

[abirdrrl]

Similar to the use of KJE in the BOM. However, not reflecting fraud, but reflecting the fact that the “classical…style” was analogous to KJE?

I don’t really see a connection to the Writings of Baha’u’llah to the Book of Mormon. Baha’u’llah’s Writings were not written in English, and His Writings are claimed as His Writings. The Book of Mormon was, according to LDS, revealed by Joseph Smith directly into English, and is not seen as the work of Joseph Smith.

My own unsubstanciated opinion is that the reason the BOM and the Writings of Baha’u’llah are both “translated” into KJV-style English is that the only widely used Bible at the time was the KJV (and the similarly styled DRV for Catholics), and so people thought that is how Scripture should sound in English. You’ll see that 19th and early 20th Century translations of the Qu’ran and Bhagavad-Gita are written in the same way.

 

[DavidMark]

1. Is Bahaullah a messenger of God? Yes. Judge by the same criteria others have been
2. Is Bahaullah a God? No. There is no God but God.
**3. Is Jesus a messenger of God? **Yes, Haven’t you read your Qur’an?
4. Is Jesus a man only and messenger of God? Yes.
5. Is Jesus God? YES & NO.
Yes, Jesus and all the other Messengers are God, in that They speak for God in a human language. IF you obey Them you obey God. Jesus said “If you have seen me you have seen the Father” because He showed the signs and attributes of God. It is the Verses themselves that are the greatest proof, just like it was during the Islamic Dispensation. Whoever ignores them has ignored God.
No, Jesus and all the Messengers are not God. He also said “No one has seen God at any time” and “The Father is greater than I”, meaning the Essence of God is forever Transcendent. Even the Word of God is a creation, the first Creation, and the means of creating the rest of creation. “You SHALL know Them by Their fruits.”

 

[Jerusha]

I don’t really see a connection to the Writings of Baha’u’llah to the Book of Mormon. Baha’u’llah’s Writings were not written in English, and His Writings are claimed as His Writings. The Book of Mormon was, according to LDS, revealed by Joseph Smith directly into English, and is not seen as the work of Joseph Smith.

My own unsubstanciated opinion is that the reason the BOM and the Writings of Baha’u’llah are both “translated” into KJV-style English is that the only widely used Bible at the time was the KJV (and the similarly styled DRV for Catholics), and so people thought that is how Scripture should sound in English. You’ll see that 19th and early 20th Century translations of the Qu’ran and Bhagavad-Gita are written in the same way.

Thank you for your response.

My prayers are with you. Your faith is certainly an improvement on the two above-mentioned religions. No knot in my gut when I read Baha’i readings, just minor disagreements.

 

[planten]

1. Is Bahaullah a messenger of God? Yes. Judge by the same criteria others have been
2. Is Bahaullah a God? No. There is no God but God.
**3. Is Jesus a messenger of God? **Yes, Haven’t you read your Qur’an?
4. Is Jesus a man only and messenger of God? Yes.
5. Is Jesus God? YES & NO.
Yes, Jesus and all the other Messengers are God, in that They speak for God in a human language. IF you obey Them you obey God. Jesus said “If you have seen me you have seen the Father” because He showed the signs and attributes of God. It is the Verses themselves that are the greatest proof, just like it was during the Islamic Dispensation. Whoever ignores them has ignored God.
No, Jesus and all the Messengers are not God. He also said “No one has seen God at any time” and “The Father is greater than I”, meaning the Essence of God is forever Transcendent. Even the Word of God is a creation, the first Creation, and the means of creating the rest of creation. “You SHALL know Them by Their fruits.”

**Thanks D M, you have now replied to all my questions with more than the necessary answers. You have rather over done it. There was no need to support your answers with any extra words. I would have believed you with just Yes and No answers for Questions No. 1 to 4.

But then at question number 5, you are undecided or double minded about Jesus. That he is God and he is not God… You said Yes and No.

Alaso in your later paras you have said that all messengers are Gods. Yes, Jesus and all the other Messengers are God,**

So Muhammad is also a God and Moses and Abraham are also Gods. Of course, I would not challenge you on these matters any more. All other friends can judge the meaning of your remarks. In that Case Bahaullah is also God.
You are talking in some sense, say metaphorically or symbolically and making many gods. Would it be allowed or not, for any reasons, is for every one to judge.

I am happy that you have told the Baha’is belief in plain words and i take your words as the correct and final say about Baha’ism. You have indeed raised the ranks of all men of God to some good level.
We blamed the church for raising the level of Jesus to that of God. You have done it further that not only Jesus was God, but Muhammad and Moses and Abraham and Bahaullah were all Gods because they were speaking for The God. Yet there was no God except One God.

Thank you very much D M.

 

[arthra]

Maybe a clarification would be important…

We Baha’is believe God is one so there are not many “gods”. Just as the there is only one sun that can be relfected in many things and the sun itself does not descend to earth so God we believe has sent Messengers from time to time for the upliftment of humanity… We call them “Manifestaions” of God… God is manifest in Them… When we turn to say Jesus we can see the attributes of God perfectly reflected in Him so with the other Manifestations. They are not God.

 

[arthra]

Thanks D M, you have in a way validated Quran. But it is well known that Baab sahib abrogated the Quran and said that it was not valid any more. Same was said by Bahaullah too. They replaced the law (Code) of the Quran as no more valid and introduced their own thesis (law). Do you deny it?

What is the meaning of acknowledging the truth of the Quran at the same time saying it is no more valid?

.

If I may suggest something…

It is only the social teachings or ordinances that change from dispensation to dispensation and not the essenrtial spiritual teachings…

So in Qur’an you would perhaps acknowledge that some ordinances are abrogated such as the change in Qiblah so the Bab abrogated ordinaces in Islam on the authority that He was the Qa’im and so Baha’u’llah the Qayyum abrogated ordinances that were revealed by the Bab but the essential spiritual teachings we believe are one and do not change.