"The Baha'i Faith"

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Their in lies the fundamental flaw in your religion which I have pointed out to my friend before and I will point out to you as well. Progressive revelation is false when one compares Jesus to Mohammed. They gave contradictory messages and the law of non contradiction cannot be violated. One identified himself as God in the second person of the Trinity and the other denied that God is a Trinity. The passages in the Bible (many) and koran are very clear about the fundamental tenets of each faith. The Bahai theory of progressive revelation is false.

There is a connection between truth and love.

Blessings

Bhtech
Thanks my friend for your post…

You are of course entitled to your views and I realize you are convinced there is a “fundamental flaw” but let me suggest something here regarding your statement:

“Progressive revelation is false when one compares Jesus to Mohammed.”

Realize that the conditions of the society when the dispensation of Prophet Muhammad obtained were different from the society around the time of Jesus Christ… different cultures and eras call for different “medicines” from the great Physician.

Also I would call your attention to the excellent work of the Franciscan Louis Massignon who was dedicated to finding some reconciliation between Muslims and Christians.

See:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Massignon

and I would agree with you there is definitely a connection between love and truth!
 
Thanks my friend for your post…

You are of course entitled to your views and I realize you are convinced there is a “fundamental flaw” but let me suggest something here regarding your statement:

“Progressive revelation is false when one compares Jesus to Mohammed.”

Realize that the conditions of the society when the dispensation of Prophet Muhammad obtained were different from the society around the time of Jesus Christ… different cultures and eras call for different “medicines” from the great Physician.
Thank you for your kind comments. Let me add however that my Bahai friend gave me the same explanation about the conditions of society being different between Jesus and Mohammed. I calmly pointed out to him that his point (similar to yours) unfortunately holds no water because if you ask a muslim what are the tenets in his belief system in the year 2009 he will tell you that among them God is one. No Trinity exists. Ask a Christian the same question and he affirms the Trinity. Both opinions are contradictory and both opinions existed from the origins of each religious system to this present day. God does not play dice and reveal one thing to one group and another contradictory thing to another group. Truth is not relative. One of the two systems and/or beliefs must be false and the other correct, but both cannot be correct which is what the Bahai holds too.

Blessings

Bhtech
 
Glad to hear the Baha’i Faith is not connected to Benjamin Cream, etc.

Truth does not contradict itself…and for those who are Catholics are blessed with the understanding of Christ handed down by the Apostles who were with Him for over 3 years. Upon Christ’s resurrection from death, the power of death itself was broken, and for us to receive His Body and Blood through Eucharist are also blessed with eternal life and living out Its graces.

Christ did not pick 1 apostle; He picked 12. Twelve also represents the 12 tribes of Israel. The Church began at Pentecost through the Holy Spirit Who then guided them through recalling Christ’s words, praying and dialoguing. The Bible took many years and many people to assemble. The early Church Fathers continued the work of the Apostles after their death, and Christ was defined as True God and True Man at the Council of Nicea, because there were many of those who broke off from the Apostolic tradition creating what was then defined as heresies.

Furthermore, the Holy Spirit guided the Apostles and Church Fathers through hermeneutical discoveries of rediscovering the Old Testament in light of the New Testament, thus Christ The Word bringing to fulfillment and complete understanding the mysteries that were revealed in the Old but brought to life in the New.

The Hebrew Catholics are a fascinating group in that they are Jewish, wish to retain Jewish customs but are finding Christ as Savior and Messiah in the New Testament within the Catholic Church. They are discovering so many passages or references in the Old Testament that are now revealed to them in the New. They are helping us Gentiles see our faith and salvation history in a deeper and more enriching light. The Hebrew Catholics are finding themselves experiencing their Jewishness more deeply and completely as Catholics than as Jews without Christ.

We are continuing to discover and learn more about our faith…Judaism is over 5,600 years old according to their calendars. The Holy Land truly is the land of the Bible. The Jewish people were expelled against their will by the ancient Romans.

So, back to Islam, it revolves its understanding of Christ and the ancient Jewish prophets through Mohammed who lived 600 years after the Apostles. He had no witnesses. His actions appeared to contradict the 10 Commandments which the Christians still observed as the Jews. Mohammed’s last words were ‘kill the infidel’, while Christ’s were to ‘forgive one’s enemies’.

Another interesting action of the Christian saints is that they each give us new insight of our faith and life in Christ in ways the help us according to our times. And all their new insights simply uphold our understanding of Christ, their newness never contradicting Who He is or What He says or Does…Islam does. Islam upholds all those who live their faith in God, but those who believe in a polytheistic god, as they claim we do, are not saved and are condemned to hell.

There are passages to the Quran that were written after Mohammed’s death. Many Moslems are not aware of the hadiths of Medina. There are other passages in references to every day life that are very unusual…put it that way.

Finally, with the divisions of Christians, it was Martin Luther, again one person, arbitrating alone who decided to remove 7 books of the Bible because they contradicted his Sola Scripture base. Now in the USA, with our highly individualistic society, there are 34,000 Christian denominations and sects, continually splintering the Word of God when Christ called us to be one.

I do believe God reveals Himself to people all over the world since the beginning of time, many coming to believe in the Divine through nature and the stars. But it was to the Jewish people that He nurtured from quasi-wild people themselves into godly, wise, and moral people, and they began in ancient, barbaric times. The 10 Commandments I find most simple and brilliant, saying it all and through it God reveal the nature of His personhood to the Chosen People. I have read the Code of Hammurabi of ancient lands of Iraq, assume nearing the Tigris River as well, but I found it circling, highly verbose, and repetitious. Nevertheless, it contained common, universal morals reflected in the 10 Commandments.

I can read the Old Testament, its language and imagery, and can relate it to today. So it is still usable after so many thousands of years. It is the story of faith of Christ’s ancestors. Reading the Old Testament as a Catholic at Mass draws us into ancient times, to re-experience their lives and struggles, and how all was the walk that led to the environment and times that Jesus was then called into the world. And from Him and His apostles, and the Sacraments–the fruits of the Covenant, I am not inclined to anything else. Our faith is one of constant new discovery and challenges.
 
I can read the Old Testament, its language and imagery, and can relate it to today. So it is still usable after so many thousands of years. It is the story of faith of Christ’s ancestors. Reading the Old Testament as a Catholic at Mass draws us into ancient times, to re-experience their lives and struggles, and how all was the walk that led to the environment and times that Jesus was then called into the world. And from Him and His apostles, and the Sacraments–the fruits of the Covenant, I am not inclined to anything else. Our faith is one of constant new discovery and challenges.
Catholicism derives some of its strength in its adaptability among cultures and through time. The problems with fundamentalist Protestantism and Islam are illustrations of that. Although Mormonism has some roots in fundamentalist Protestantism (Alexander Campbell), Mormonism makes a joke of the concept of “progressive revelation” because of the outright wacky teachings (including most of the BOM) and lawless behavior of early Mormon leaders.

Although Baha’i has something in common with Mormonism, in that it teaches “progressive revelation”, its roots are in Islam. Its early leaders being highly educated Persians, its strength is in the wisdom they taught, and their apparent adherence to basic moral principles.

Yeah, the Muslim world may have “missed the boat” when they rejected it.
 
The Mormons are changing quickly…it won’t be long where they are more standardized with the rest of society…given everything else arrives at their effects…

About islam…that is scary…Revelations speaks of the river of blood 200 miles wide, certainly the accumulation of those beheaded and slaughtered for not renouncing their faith…the pool of fire with the beast and false prophet…

Coupled with the nonchalance of the remaining European Christians and the proliferation of mosques in Italy and surrounding countries…

Yes, I have read about the dreams taking place in the Middle East, how militant Islam is about to implode within itself in 10 years or so…you see the rumblings of those in Iran, but you also see the expulsion of Christians in the Holy Land and now forced Islamic dress in Gaza…
 
katgee posted (part of katgee post #103):
So, back to Islam, it revolves its understanding of Christ and the ancient Jewish prophets through Mohammed who lived 600 years after the Apostles. He had no witnesses. His actions appeared to contradict the 10 Commandments which the Christians still observed as the Jews. Mohammed’s last words were ‘kill the infidel’, while Christ’s were to ‘forgive one’s enemies’.
Another interesting action of the Christian saints is that they each give us new insight of our faith and life in Christ in ways the help us according to our times. And all their new insights simply uphold our understanding of Christ, their newness never contradicting Who He is or What He says or Does…Islam does. Islam upholds all those who live their faith in God, but those who believe in a polytheistic god, as they claim we do, are not saved and are condemned to hell.
There are passages to the Quran that were written after Mohammed’s death. Many Moslems are not aware of the hadiths of Medina. There are other passages in references to every day life that are very unusual…put it that way.
**Your post about Islam is all wrong. Revelation of Quran was completed over a period of 23 years in the life time of the prophet. All was complete written on parchments and was being recited openly in five daily prayers. There was no doubt of any word. Only there was not a single compiled copy available. That work of compilation was done after Muhammad passed away.

Muhammad was walking and talking and preaching in the streets same as Jesus was doing. there was no angel walking with Muhammad or with jesus. What do you mean Muhammad had no witnesses? Do you mean that many Muslim believers were killed as a joke for nothing. If there was nothing with Muhammad or his teachings then why did the Muslims suffer so much and gave there lives and even had to migrate to distance lands.

Muslims support the Ten Commandments of Moses a.s. I suppose that the christians are all careless about those commandments.

You need not comment about Islam in this thread. Rather you go after the Baha’is. They are inviting you. It appears that Bab is the second coming of your Lord Jesus Christ. Discuss that please and leave Islam alone from this discussion.**
 
Thank you for your kind comments. Let me add however that my Bahai friend gave me the same explanation about the conditions of society being different between Jesus and Mohammad. I calmly pointed out to him that his point (similar to yours) unfortunately holds no water because if you ask a Muslim what are the tenets in his belief system in the year 2009 he will tell you that among them God is one. No Trinity exists. Ask a Christian the same question and he affirms the Trinity. Both opinions are contradictory and both opinions existed from the origins of each religious system to this present day. God does not play dice and reveal one thing to one group and another contradictory thing to another group. Truth is not relative. One of the two systems and/or beliefs must be false and the other correct, but both cannot be correct which is what the Bahai holds too.

Blessings

Bhtech
Well Bhtech thanks for your reply…

You know that I think without a historical perspective it would be hard to understand the concept of progressive revelation.

Let me start by giving an example from the ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ… One of the important aspects of the time was the legalistic and letter of the law which the Pharisees wielded… It had become something like a spiritual strangle hold on the population. Also the ritualistic and monetary rewards associated with Temple worship had become a problem involving the money changers and sacrifices of animals and so… We could say I think that one of the missions of the ministry of the Lord was to liberate the people in their spiritual lives from the legalism and ritual aspects that the religion had descended into…

Now consider the case of the rise of Islam… What characteristics do we know about religion before the time of Prophet Muhammad…

I think we could say that paganism was very strong in Arabia at the time… also the various Arab tribes were being used by fairly strong powers out side the Arabian peninsula, such as the Sassanid Empire, the Byzantine Empire and Abyssinia… Trade routes were important as they are today… and securing control over them important economically and militarily.

Another aspect is that as Christianity had spread into the Roman Empire it also picked up aspects of the earlier pagan systems and adapted them for various purposes from ritual in the church to various holidays, adoring images and doctrines such as the Mother of God, Jesus as God and so on.

You could say I believe that the dispensation of Islam addressed some of these issues and is one reason it became accepted readily in the areas of the old Empires in Syria, Egypt, Persia etc. Also the old Empires began to crumble before a united Arabia. Islam united the various tribes in Arabia to great degree.

So to me that is a little synopsis of the historical reasons for the rise of the new dispensation just as the Gospel had a historical and social message for the time of Jesus Christ.

The Baha’i view is that we are now or have been at another historical and social crossroad and it is the challenge of world unity and the oneness of humanity… If we can achieve it we will survive…and if we can’t then we will have greater misery and deprivation. This is the historical basis or need for the principles of Baha’ullah that are unique to this day and time…
 
Jerusha,

Thanks for your comments…

I just have one thing I wanted to point out when you wrote above:

*Although Baha’i has something in common with Mormonism, in that it teaches “progressive revelation”, its roots are in Islam. *

I wanted to say that I believe the Mormon belief is in what they call “eternal progression” which you may have confused with the Baha’i concept of “progressive revelation”. The two concepts are very distinct in my mind.

😉
 
The Trinity is an important subject to me:
God emphasized either one of the two extreme ways of looking at its mystery.
There is a triune relationship between the three aspects, but they are not co-equal.
For instance, the rays of the sun are dependent on the sun, not the other way around,
yet the sun would not be the sun without having its radiance spread through-out the system.
You can put numberless mirrors before the sun, and if they are perfect and flawless,
like the divine Manifestations, they were faithfully reflect the nature of the same one and only sun. But we should remember that the doctrine is not mentioned specifically in the Gospel, only deduced. Whereas in the Qur’án and the Báb’s Writings, it is mentioned this way:
5:73-7 **They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve. **(The Qur’an (Pickthall tr), Sura 5 - The Food)

Verily, Christ is Our Word which We communicated unto Mary; and let no one say what the Christians term as ‘the third of three’,[Qur’án 5:77]inasmuch as it would amount to slandering the Remembrance Who, as decreed in the Mother Book, is invested with supreme authority. Indeed God is but one God, and far be it from His glory that there should be aught else besides Him. (Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 60)

** Consider the rays of the sun whose light hath encompassed the world. The rays emanate from the sun and reveal its nature, but are not the sun itself. * Whatsoever can be discerned on earth amply demonstrateth the power of God, His knowledge and the outpourings of His bounty, while He Himself is immeasurably exalted above all creatures. **(Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, 61)
*Spectroscopy enables astronomers, unable to go to the star, to fix its’ magnitude, composition, mass, distance etc. In the same way, the Spirit shows the attributes of God, but is not God Himself, yet enables the reflection of God in the mirrors of pure hearts.
 
I wanted to say that I believe the Mormon belief is in what they call “eternal progression” which you may have confused with the Baha’i concept of “progressive revelation”. The two concepts are very distinct in my mind.

😉
Their application and results are certainly distinctly different. God be with you, as the future unfolds.
 
Jerusha, I do not feel “all roads lead to Rome” but rather to the Holy Land, and this is symptomatic of the estrangement that has happened between the administrative and spiritual centers.
They did not lead to Rome before Romulus, but the Holy Land has and will call all mankind. It was prophesied and must come true. Zion and the “New Jerusalem” not Rome.
I know you are saying it in the belief that the Papacy has the last say; but I would phrase it this way, a time will come when the Papacy has its last say. This is not to disparage the good that was done or the efforts to atone for past horrors, or the devotion to a point where the celestial Sun arose, but dawning points change, and the lovers of the light will not be distracted. It is a subject worthy of private thought and reflection, my friend.
Jerusalem is the place of pilgrimage for all the peoples of the world, and hath been named the Holy City. Together with Zion and Palestine, they are all included within these regions. Wherefore, hath it been said: “Blessed is the man that hath migrated to 'Akká.”(Baha’u’llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 145)
 
Jerusha,
There are references to Islam, and Ba’Hai in some ways is similar to Islam. We are a free country and we have the freedom to express our opinion. Mine draws on documented history of Christianity…Christianity and other religions cannot be freely expressed or discussed or promoted in Islamic countries or else face death or imprisonment. Furthermore, we are becoming more and more aware of the Third Jihad in this country.

I am referring to history, to documents that have authority as well as inferring to those considered heretical, as those esposed in some of the gnostic gospels.

Mohammed came out and said the Angel Gabriel spoke to him, but his actions contradicted Christ. His writings also state that anyone who believes in a polytheistic god which Christians are accused of in their belief of the Holy Trinity commit blasphemy and are condemned.

Christ is never returning to this world. He will only return in person as judge and usher in a new heaven and earth, and this contradicts Ba’hai beliefs as well.
 
Jerusha,
There are references to Islam, and Ba’Hai in some ways is similar to Islam. We are a free country and we have the freedom to express our opinion. Mine draws on documented history of Christianity…Christianity and other religions cannot be freely expressed or discussed or promoted in Islamic countries or else face death or imprisonment. Furthermore, we are becoming more and more aware of the Third Jihad in this country.

I am referring to history, to documents that have authority as well as inferring to those considered heretical, as those esposed in some of the gnostic gospels.

Mohammed came out and said the Angel Gabriel spoke to him, but his actions contradicted Christ. His writings also state that anyone who believes in a polytheistic god which Christians are accused of in their belief of the Holy Trinity commit blasphemy and are condemned.

Christ is never returning to this world. He will only return in person as judge and usher in a new heaven and earth, and this contradicts Ba’hai beliefs as well.
katgee, thanks for blaming Muhammad again and the Baha’is too. You are hoping that Jesus someday will come in person and will do some kind of justice. It is now more than 2000 years that jesus is gone. There have been many wars and tortures and sins during that time (2000 years). Jesus did not come. Shall we hope that he will come some day?
 
Planten,

Some how I don’t think you are reading my posts correctly…sorry for the misunderstanding…
 
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