"The Baha'i Faith"

[Jerusha]

BHTech and DavidMark, I enjoy watching your civil debate.

 

[BHTech]

Miracles
I would like to start a new direction in the discussion of the relevancy of Bahá’u’lláh and the Báb to all previous Faiths. It is common in all relgions to relate miracles associated with the particular Founders. Christianity seems to be miracles from beginning to end, whereas the Qur’án and the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh and the Báb are considered to be their own miracle. This is what the Báb says:
In this Day, radiant acquiesence, in all its forms, is confirmed for the one who is content with the revelation of verses by God, without the slightest desire for any other proof besides them. Were any man to be adorned with all spiritual virtues in utmost contentment in all the worlds, and yet assert in this Day that his heart is not utterly satisfied with the revelation of verses in the absence of witnessing miracles, then all his acquiesence would be brought to naught in the Book of God, and no other mode of resignation would be of any profit to him. (Provisional translation, quoted in Nader Saedi’s Gate of the Heart, p. 307)

That is why it is vital to our spiritual lives to be cautious when investigating spiritual claims. Instead of immediately spouting off what we think to be the absolute truth, we should do as Christ commanded, and seek, ask, pray diligantly and test the spirits. and the “fruits” of the new teaching. If they pass the requirements, we have no recourse but to submit to their superiority. Because all verses from God are superior to us as individuals. They are the expressions of the Word. We are like letters, which have no intrinsic meaning by themselves, unless they are part of a mutually agreed upon word.

When this is done, then the numerical prophecies and social teachings make sense, and we can dedicate our lives to the service of the Kingdom in good conscience.

Dear David,

No probs if you wish to change the topic to miracles. It is a very good topic. I begin by noting that both you [Bahais] and Muslims say that the only miracles is in your holy books, but as in the case of Mohammed if as Muslims claim that God picked him to be the greatest prophet he would have confirmed him with miracles. Why wouldn’t God give this same power to the greatest of prophets? Wouldn’t God want us to be able to distinguish His greatest prophet from lesser prophets, especially false ones. Now apply that same argument to Bahá’u’lláh and the Báb and you have the same questions and NO answers to it.

Another point to think about is why would almost all the well known miracles be given to the Catholic church and not to Islam or the Bahais. I invite you to consider the Shroud of Turin, the image of Guadalupe, Fatima, the blood of Januarius and many, many Eucharistic miracles. To date there are over 100 incorruptible Saints and not one is Muslim or Bahai. Why is that?

Finally Christianity has not ended but will go on to the end of the world and more miralces will continue to pop up. Nothing from the Bahai or Muslim worlds???

God Bless

Bhtech

 

[arthra]

Bhtech,

Thanks for your reply earlier…

You wrote:

I would say you should ask yourself the question of the two bodies involved, Jesus versus the religious establishment, who taught the correct message of God. Who claimed to be God? If your answer is Jesus then the religious establishment was in error with their strict rules, false piety and false teachings.

*A2. Being charged with blasphemy does not mean that he [Jesus] was wrong. It just means the Sanhedrin were blind. *

My comment:

Exactly…! and I would suggest you can see a very similar thing happened in the case of the Bab when He was tried by a court of Mullahs and eventually sentenced to execution.

The religious establishment of the earlier dispensation most often persecutes the new revelation from God. The early Christians were formerly practising Jews and were viewed as “heretical” … My point was you need to be very careful when applying the term “heresy”

The revelation of Islam is not from Gnostic sources…again an allegation which is spurious.

…also you may ask yourself what ecclesiastical authoritty do you claim to have to pronounce any group heretical?

 

[BHTech]

Bhtech,

Thanks for your reply earlier…

You wrote:

I would say you should ask yourself the question of the two bodies involved, Jesus versus the religious establishment, who taught the correct message of God. Who claimed to be God? If your answer is Jesus then the religious establishment was in error with their strict rules, false piety and false teachings.

*A2. Being charged with blasphemy does not mean that he [Jesus] was wrong. It just means the Sanhedrin were blind. *

My comment:

Exactly…! and I would suggest you can see a very similar thing happened in the case of the Bab when He was tried by a court of Mullahs and eventually sentenced to execution.

The religious establishment of the earlier dispensation most often persecutes the new revelation from God. The early Christians were formerly practising Jews and were viewed as “heretical” … My point was you need to be very careful when applying the term “heresy”

The revelation of Islam is not from Gnostic sources…again an allegation which is spurious.

…also you may ask yourself what ecclesiastical authoritty do you claim to have to pronounce any group heretical?

Dear Artha

So your Bab was executed, that is very sad. However, did he rise from the dead, show himself to others and proclaim to go and preach the Gospel to all nations? Did he show his hands and feet to his disciples and did they bow down and worship him and exclaim, “My Lord and my God”. NO they didn’t. His bones are still in the ground. Did your Bab eat with his disciples for 40+ days on earth? Is the year 2009 in recognition of the division in time 2000 years from the birth of the Bab? NO.

You can claim that Islam is not from Gnostic sources but perhaps you have not read the infancy gospels of Thomas for starters. Read Chapter 2 and compare it with Surah 5:110.

Finally, you ask “…also you may ask yourself what ecclesiastical authoritty do you claim to have to pronounce any group heretical?” Simple answer. The Catholic Church founded by Jesus Christ himself. As Matt. 16 tells us, … I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you [Peter] the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

God Bless

Bhtech

 

[katgee]

Again, I think the problem is not accepting there was a Divine authority at work in the compilation of the teachings of Christ…and immediately the sources drawing from the apostles themselves were recognized as having that authority…they were constant companions to Christ for all those years, we have read their many experiences of dialoguing and debating, so much a part of the Jewish psyche…then you had those who had strange ideas while drawing on part of authentic witness that gave rise to the Gnostics and other sources…

The authority of the apostles was passed down through the early Church Fathers, and the believers themselves recognized this transmission of faith that was in turn supported by the Holy Spirit.

The shepherd knows his own and they know him. The gnostics and others had strange ideas not taught by Christ and then His apostles.

 

[arthra]

Bhtech:

The Infancy Gospel of Thomas is not a gnostic gospel… You may be confusing it with the coptic Gospel of Thomas which is considered gnostic… and if you compare the stories of say the child Jesus breathing life into the clay birds they are different… that is the Qur’anic version is different from the Infancy Gospel version.

If Jesus Christ used material about Abraham, Moses why would you not also allow for the revelation of Prophet Muhammad to include references to Jesus, the Annunciation and Mary as well Moses and prophets not mentioned in the Bible?

Each Messenger of God has Their own characteristic life and passing so why bring in the resurrection stories of Jesus? There are similarities though between the life of Jesus and that of the Bab.

 

[pipper]

www.theaqdas.org helps people to study and understand this new and Most Holy Book.

The Creation is Infinite in Range & Deathless in Duration
The Purposes of God
The Proclamation of the Day of God & the Kingdom of God
The Oneness of God
The Oneness of Religion
The Oneness of Humanity
Independent Investigation of Truth
Elimination of All Prejudices
Elimination of Gossip and Back-biting
Elimination of Abuse
Elimination of the Concept of Enemy
Non-Interference of Religion with Politics
Religion Must Be the Cause of Harmony
Religion is in Harmony with Science
Equality of Men and Women
Universal Education
Universal Peace
Universal Auxiliary Language
The Need for Devotional Prayer
The Need for Silent Meditation
The Need for Consultation
Spiritual Solutions to the Eco-Crises
Kindness to Animals
Humanity is in Need of Collective Security
Humanity is in Need of the Holy Spirit
Humanity is in Need of Tests
The Center of the Covenant
Justice and Right
Reciprocity
Service and Action
Preparation for the Hereafter
This Panacea
The End of the Seven Times of the Gentiles

If any of these topics interests you, alert me to discussion of them.

I see universal auxiliary language. Do Bahai use Esperanto, or some other toungue?

 

[look3467]

Hi,
Here is my take after many years of searching for answers to “what’s up with all the different denominations, faiths, religious beliefs, Lord?”

Is there a common thread that is woven into all of them by which I could truly say, love my enemies, love my neighbor?

Listen, God is love!

If you look at humanity through God’s eyes you will not see it as your own. For we see humanity based on what we have been exposed to, this religious belief or that one.

But you know, love knows no bounds. Can you agree with that?

If Jesus came to save the world (General) He came not to save the righteous, for the words says, " no, there is none righteous".

So who then of all humanity is righteous enough to be saved? Catholics? Baptists? Mormons? Baha’i s?

Do we suppose that God loves only Catholics, Baptists, Mormon’s, Bahai’s, or anybody else for that matter?

Or does He look at the heart of the individual looking to find a heart that is after Him with whatever knowledge is available at the time?

If you are a Catholic, be the best Catholic you can be because there is where your heart is towards God.

If you are a Baha’i, then be the best Baha’i you can be.

If either a Catholic or a Baha’i can love each other despite their differing views, that they both would have complied with the second Commandment Jesus left us, and that is to love they neighbor.

If you love God, by whatever name He is known to you, then loving your neighbor is a reflection of the first Commandment you are living by.

Take your faith in God and apply it to your life and leave the saving up to God. He will use you if He finds you willing to apply His love without respect to persons.

That is my opinion, so take it for what it’s worth.

Blessings, AJ

 

[planten]

posted by DavidMark: in post #136:

Would ye ask the Jews whether Jesus was the True One from God, or the idols if Muhammad was an Apostle of His Lord, or inquire from the people of the Qur’án as to Him Who was the Remembrance of God, the Most Exalted, the Most Great?

(Baha’u’llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 42)

**David, please tell whose words are those above? Who is the Rememberance of God, the Most Exalted, the Most Great? I hope it is Bahaullah. When did he write it or circulate it. As to Him, with Capital H, does it mean that Bahaullah is God?

I need not ask this question again because previously you had admitted that Bahaullah was also God because he spoke the will of God.

Your theories are complicated and confusing. just because one speaks the will of God on earth, he cannot become a God. That is for sure. Now I ask you one more question. Did Abraham or Moses also say that they are Gods because they were speaking the will of God? If they did not do such thing then why is Bahaullah doing that?

Perhaps Abraham and Moses were Gods but they did not know about it? Would you say that? And Muhammad also did not say such things. So he was also un-aware of him being a God? There have been many prophets / messengers / saints in the world who spoke the words or will of God. They never claimed being God. Why they did not do any such thing?

Now, another question. Please tell whether Bahaullah himself claimed to be God? or you people have made him into a God, somehow?

I am sorry to disturb you again because you had written: or inquire from the people of the Qur’án as to Him** Who was the Remembrance of God. This has made me enter the field again. Please respond in un-ambigous words. Thanks.

 

[BHTech]

Bhtech:

The Infancy Gospel of Thomas is not a gnostic gospel… You may be confusing it with the coptic Gospel of Thomas which is considered gnostic… and if you compare the stories of say the child Jesus breathing life into the clay birds they are different… that is the Qur’anic version is different from the Infancy Gospel version.

I disagree with you there and I know the difference between the two Gospels. Gnosticism is as broad as it is deep predating Christianity and we can play polemics with classifications until the cows come home. We know it was written in the second century and was rejected by the church and church fathers. When I look at the clay bird story it is obvious where the story of the clay birds in Surah 5:110 came from. The infancy gospel of Thomas. Those who choose to ignore the obvious are intellectually dishonest.

If Jesus Christ used material about Abraham, Moses why would you not also allow for the revelation of Prophet Muhammad to include references to Jesus, the Annunciation and Mary as well Moses and prophets not mentioned in the Bible?

Its not a question of allowing it or not. I look at who Jesus was, what he said about himself and the Father and what he did. He claimed equality with God and backed it up with his resurrection and miracles. Therefore the buck stops there with him as God. There can be no other prophets after him otherwise his passion and redemptive work is useless.

Each Messenger of God has Their own characteristic life and passing so why bring in the resurrection stories of Jesus? There are similarities though between the life of Jesus and that of the Bab.

Your Bab is still dead and no one knows him. He has done NO miracles. For him to return in 1844 or thereabouts (nearly 2000 years later) with a new message, means his [Jesus] passion, death and resurrection was USELESS. He failed with Christians, period. It means the Bible is erroneous or Jesus LIED. Let me reiterate what I have said to you before regarding your Bab. Did your Bab rise from the dead, show himself to others and proclaim to go and preach the Gospel to all nations? Did he show his hands and feet to his disciples and did they bow down and worship him and exclaim, “My Lord and my God”. NO they didn’t. His bones are still in the ground, probably decomposed by now. Did your Bab eat with his disciples for 40+ days on earth? Is the year 2009 in recognition of the division in time 2000 years from the birth of the Bab? NO.

God Bless

Bhtech

 

[arthra]

I see universal auxiliary language. Do Bahai use Esperanto, or some other toungue?

Thanks for your question!

Historically many Baha’is supported Esperanto as a universal auxilary language Abdul-Baha encouraged it and early Baha’is like Martha Root were very fluent in Esperanto/ Also the youngest daughter of the founder of Esperanto Lidia Zamenhof became a Baha’i and translated many of teh Bhaa’i Writings into Esperanto…

See:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidia_Zamenhof

The league of Nations also adopted Esperanto… although we Baha’is accept that there should be an international auxiliary language we are not saying it has to be Esperanto… It could be one of the languages already widely in use and is really up to the international community to decide.

 

[arthra]

Platen asked above who is the “Remembrance of God” referred to by Baha’u’llah. It is my understanding the reference Remembrance of God referred to His Holiness the Bab.

The Bab refers to Himself as “the most great Remembrance of God” (dhikr allah al-akbar).

It may be less confusing to you Platen if you would consider that God is one and that He sends many Messengers and Prophets to humanity over time…

Some of these Messengers are basically Rasuli, that is They bring a new book of revelation like Moses, Jesus and Muhammad but there is still only one God, that’s what we Baha’is believe. we also believe that God will continue to send His Messengers and the Bab and Baha’u’llah are in more recent times as humanity has need. There are also Nabiyim or prophets that are also receive revelation and are inspired but who are under the shadow of the Rasuli.

Over time God has only one religion but men have complicated it and sought to exploit and distort religion for their own purposes…

 

[arthra]

Bhtech,

Thanks for your reply…

If you have any questions about Baha’i Faith now’s a good time to ask…

I am not here to criticize Catholicism or argue…

The Bab is not “my” Bab He is for us the Bab His title which means in Arabic the Gate. His name was Siyyid Ali Muhammad and He was a descendant of Prophet Muhammad. He was born into a humble merchant family and proclaimed His mission in Shiraz Iran on May 22-23rd 1844 or 1260 AH. He also openly proclaimed His mission in Mecca while on Haj in November 1844 about the same time as many Christians believed the Lord Jesus would return.

A thousand years also spanned from the disappearance of the Twelfth Imam in 260 AH till 1260 AH the time of His Proclamation.

During His short six year ministry thousands of people recognized His claims to be the Promised One or Qa’im of Islam and followed Him many to their martyrdom.

Also the Bab proclaimed “Him Whom God would make manifest” would soon appear and that He was preparing the way for Him much in the same way that John the Baptist alluded to Jesus Christ. “Him Whom God would make manifest” was Baha’ullah which means the “Glory of God”. His name was Mirza Husayn Ali and He was of a noble family of Nur around the area of Mazandaran. Baha’u’llah was His title and recognized by the Bab Himself. Baha’u’llah declared that He was “Him Whom would make manifest” on April 21st 1863 this after years of imprisonment and exile.

 

[planten]

Platen asked above who is the “Remembrance of God” referred to by Baha’u’llah. It is my understanding the reference Remembrance of God referred to His Holiness the Bab.

The Bab refers to Himself as “the most great Remembrance of God” (dhikr allah al-akbar).

It may be less confusing to you Platen if you would consider that God is one and that He sends many Messengers and Prophets to humanity over time…

Some of these Messengers are basically Rasuli, that is They bring a new book of revelation like Moses, Jesus and Muhammad but there is still only one God, that’s what we Baha’is believe. we also believe that God will continue to send His Messengers and the Bab and Baha’u’llah are in more recent times as humanity has need. There are also Nabiyim or prophets that are also receive revelation and are inspired but who are under the shadow of the Rasuli.

Over time God has only one religion but men have complicated it and sought to exploit and distort religion for their own purposes…

**arthra thanks for reply. you have not replied to all my questions the way I had asked. You have only told me that “Him” was Bab. But you did not touch any other question. Please present all my post and then reply to all points. More questions are arising. i see that both bab and Bahaullah had pseudo-names. their real names were different. Why was that? Why they were not known by their original names? If you do not reply in time then questions will remain piling up and there will be no answers.

Please see my post #149 again and reply to the point. Why did Bahaullah call himself God? It appears from that previous post of David that Bahaullah thought Bab was also God. What you people are teaching? Please tell.**

 

[DavidMark]

Planten: Everything has been explained sufficiently to you. Everything was explained sufficiently to the Jews…but they “persist in proud disdain” --except for a few. Everything was explained sufficiently to the Christians by the Qur’an, which was God speaking through Gabriel and Muhammad, and still you hear them say blasphemous things against Islam. You know that no one can stand in the presence of God without His permission, and yet the Qur’an commands us to expect the “Presence of God”… See 29:23, 2:46, 2:249, 18:111,13:2]
How else can the ‘presence’ of God be attained except by His Command in the world?
** Therefore, whosoever, and in whatever Dispensation, hath recognized and attained unto the presence of these glorious, these resplendent and most excellent Luminaries, hath verily attained unto the “Presence of God” Himself, and entered the city of eternal and immortal life. Attainment unto such presence is possible only in the Day of Resurrection, which is the Day of the rise of God Himself through His all-embracing Revelation.**(Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 142)

 

[arthra]

Platen,

Thanks for your reply!

You asked above:

i see that both bab and Bahaullah had pseudo-names. their real names were different. Why was that? Why they were not known by their original names? If you do not reply in time then questions will remain piling up and there will be no answers.

My reply to you:

Both the Bab and Baha’u’llah were real people and had names given them at birth. At maturity when the full spiirtual station of the Messenger of God was known the Title “Bab” was used for Siyyid Ali Muhammad and the Title of Baha’u’llah was used by Mirza Husayn Ali from about the time of the Conference of Badasht in 1848 when the Bab conferred new names or titles for His followers. Thus the Bab referred to Him as “Baha” and other titles were conferred on people that reflected their spiritual attributes… such as “Quddus”; “Tahirih”; “Badi” and so on.

You ask:

Why did Bahaullah call himself God? It appears from that previous post of David that Bahaullah thought Bab was also God. What you people are teaching?

---

My reply:

Baha’is believe in the concept of the Manifestation of God… this means that God is perfectly reflected in the pure Mirror of the Manifestation. If you wanted to know what the Message of God in the time of Prophet Muhammad you would turn to Him so that is meaning. God does not descend to earth or incarnate Himself in human form as some believe.

Here is the explanation of Abdul-Baha:

Lastly the perfect man, the Prophet, is one who is transfigured, one who has the purity and clearness of a perfect mirror – one who reflects the Sun of Truth. Of such a one – of such a Prophet and Messenger – we can say that the Light of Divinity with the heavenly Perfections dwells in him.

If we claim that the sun is seen in the mirror, we do not mean that the sun itself has descended from the holy heights of his heaven and entered into the mirror! This is impossible. The Divine Nature is seen in the Manifestations and its Light and Splendor are visible in extreme glory.

Therefore, men have always been taught and led by the Prophets of God. The Prophets of God are the Mediators of God. All the Prophets and Messengers have come from One Holy Spirit and bear the Message of God, fitted to the age in which they appear. The One Light is in them and they are One with each other. But the Eternal does not become phenomenal; neither can the phenomenal become Eternal.

(Abdu’l-Baha, Abdu’l-Baha in London, p. 23)

Abdul-Baha was the Interpreter of His Father’s Writings so His explanation is the one we Baha’is generally go by.

 

[BHTech]

Bhtech,

Thanks for your reply…

If you have any questions about Baha’i Faith now’s a good time to ask…

I am not here to criticize Catholicism or argue…

The Bab is not “my” Bab He is for us the Bab His title which means in Arabic the Gate. His name was Siyyid Ali Muhammad and He was a descendant of Prophet Muhammad. He was born into a humble merchant family and proclaimed His mission in Shiraz Iran on May 22-23rd 1844 or 1260 AH. He also openly proclaimed His mission in Mecca while on Haj in November 1844 about the same time as many Christians believed the Lord Jesus would return.

A thousand years also spanned from the disappearance of the Twelfth Imam in 260 AH till 1260 AH the time of His Proclamation.

During His short six year ministry thousands of people recognized His claims to be the Promised One or Qa’im of Islam and followed Him many to their martyrdom.

Also the Bab proclaimed “Him Whom God would make manifest” would soon appear and that He was preparing the way for Him much in the same way that John the Baptist alluded to Jesus Christ. “Him Whom God would make manifest” was Baha’ullah which means the “Glory of God”. His name was Mirza Husayn Ali and He was of a noble family of Nur around the area of Mazandaran. Baha’u’llah was His title and recognized by the Bab Himself. Baha’u’llah declared that He was “Him Whom would make manifest” on April 21st 1863 this after years of imprisonment and exile.

Dear Artha

Thank you for your replies. You have been patient. I can see perhaps our conversation is coming to an end. I will say however that I categorically reject your Bab (or Gate) or Mohammed or Joseph Smith for the reasons I have outlined in my previous post. God cannot contradict himself, no matter what post Christianity prophets say in light of what Jesus Christ said, did and who he claimed to be.

If your religion was correct then the Bab would have done greater miracles than his less prophets and there would be no contradictions between Jesus and Mohammed or between Mohammed and the Bab or between Joseph Smith and/or Jesus/Mohammed/Bab. Hopefully you get my point.

I note you have another post later on and I wish to address a point you have made, so I shall look at it. Otherwise I wish God’ blessings upon you.

Bhtech

 

[planten]

**arthra, You have again replied and tried to explain a few things. But you have not posted my post #149. You should post that and then reply.

I cannot agree with you about that mirror business. That is true and good example. But Bab and Bahaullah should not use that to make themselves as God. There had been Abraham and Jacob and Joseph and Moses and Muhammad. I am sure their mirror was also very clean. They reflected the light of the Sun i.e. the will of God. But none of them claimed to be God.

At this moment you are probably floating in two boats. That bahaullah and bab were prophets and that they were God too. There is a clear contradiction in such teachings. None of the prophets before said any such thing and none claimed that they were Gods. All of them said, they were messengers of God or they were servants of God.

You people have diverged from the line of all previous prophets.**

 

[BHTech]

Here is the explanation of Abdul-Baha:

Paragraph 1 - Lastly the perfect man, the Prophet, is one who is transfigured, one who has the purity and clearness of a perfect mirror – one who reflects the Sun of Truth. Of such a one – of such a Prophet and Messenger – we can say that the Light of Divinity with the heavenly Perfections dwells in him.

Paragraph 2- If we claim that the sun is seen in the mirror, we do not mean that the sun itself has descended from the holy heights of his heaven and entered into the mirror! This is impossible. The Divine Nature is seen in the Manifestations and its Light and Splendor are visible in extreme glory.

Paragraph 3 - Therefore, men have always been taught and led by the Prophets of God. The Prophets of God are the Mediators of God. All the Prophets and Messengers have come from One Holy Spirit and bear the Message of God, fitted to the age in which they appear. The One Light is in them and they are One with each other. But the Eternal does not become phenomenal; neither can the phenomenal become Eternal.

I wish to make a critical examination of the above explanation by Abdul-Baha. This is in no way directed to any of the Bahai posters here personally, but in my opinion it strikes at the core of their message but not at them personally. No offense to anyone please but is meant to showcase to the world how one can apply simple logic and reasoning to get to the meat of the matter!

I begin by noting that it is Abdul-Baha fathers writings he is talking about and unless one hates their father, he is going to be supportive of what he has written. His translations in no way can therefore be seen to be unbiased.

On paragraph 1, anyone can live with this. Its flowery language but is acceptable. On paragraph 2, Abdul-Baha starts by saying that “If we claim that the sun is seen in the mirror, we do not mean that the sun itself has descended from the holy heights of his heaven and entered into the mirror!” However, this statement directly contradicts one in paragraph 1 since Abdul-Baha describes one who reflects the Sun of Truth. Is the “Sun of Truth” different from the “Sun” since all mirrors reflect objects placed in their path. Later on I suspect his reference to a descent from heaven is a direct rejection of Jesus descent from heaven to redeem his people.

On paragraph 3 we find the achilles heel of this proclamation that all prophets and messengers bear the message of God fitted to each age. This is patently false because Jesus cannot say to the Jews 2000 years ago, “The Father and I are one”, “I am from above you are from below”, “Go baptise in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit”, “Before Abraham was I am” and many, many other proclamations that reveal his divinity, reveal the Trinity, the message of hope and redemption and which Christians believe to this day.

600 years later on in time (1400 years ago), he supposedly says to Mohammed via Gabriel that God is not a Trinity, Jesus is not divine, Jesus did not die on the cross, etc and the soon to be compiled Koran is the last word he [God] will have to his people. THOSE TWO PHILOSOPHICAL and THEOLOGICAL beliefs contradict each other any way you slice it, you dice it and you eat it if you choose to swallow relative truth. Nothing to do with each message for each age. God does not play dice with his messages.

1844 years later on (165 years ago) he sprouts a new message that is contrary to Jesus AND to Mohammeds message, so we have a three way contradiction. Let’s not forget Joseph Smith message (Mormons) around the same time which will make it 4 way contradiction or any other so called prophet who has since arisen.

Finally, I note the use of the words Holy Spirit which appear to be separate from God. The Koran uses the same language or words in few parts, but I mention this because it is interesting since both deny the Trinity yet mention a Holy Spirit.

God Bless

Bhtech

 

[jewells17]

Heres the deal: I believe in God, the Father Almighty…creator of heaven and earth. And in Jesus Christ his ONLY son, our Lord. Who was concieved by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary…he suffered under Pontius Pilate…was crucified, died and was buried…he descended into hell and on the third day he rose again from the dead. He ascended in to heaven where he sits at the right hand of God the father almighty…from whence he shall come again to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church…the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins and the resurrection of the body and life everlasting…Amen.
It’s that simple and totally: true. End of story…well not exactly…He is coming back !!!