"The Baha'i Faith"

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Platen,

Maybe there’s a language problem here but repeatedly I responded and you seem not to understand … please be assured that the explanation or interpretation of Abdul-Baha is authoritative for us… You can reject that as you please…

When God speaks through a Prophet He could use a first person… The Prophet is still not God. Jesus is reported to have said in John 8:58:

“Before Abraham was I am”

The people knew Jesus was raised among them and had been born in a natural way or at least that was their assumption… How could He say “Before Abraham was I am”? The answer at least in our view is that God spoke through Him… Thus if God is speaking through the Prophet and announces He is God who will contradict this unless they deny Him? Once again there is only one God and He speaks through His Messengers and Prophets.

Here are the very words of Baha’u’llah:

Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming:

“Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.”

He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.

~ Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 49
 
For Bhtech,

You wrote:

God is not a Trinity, Jesus is not divine, Jesus did not die on the cross, etc and the soon to be compiled Koran is the last word he [God] will have to his people.

My reply:

You may not be aware of this but the Baha’i view is that Jesus was a Manifestation of God and that He was a mediator between God and humanity, that He was born of Mary in a miraculous way. Jesus died on the cross and was martyred. What the Qur’an said was the He was not crucified… meaning the Spirit of Christ was not crucified but those present thought they had “killed” the Messiah. He was in our view physically crucified.

You wrote:

1844 years later on (165 years ago) he sprouts a new message that is contrary to Jesus AND to Mohammeds message, so we have a three way contradiction. Let’s not forget Joseph Smith message (Mormons) around the same time which will make it 4 way contradiction or any other so called prophet who has since arisen.

My reply:

Unless you are a Mormon and accept Joseph Smith all I can say is that Baha’is regard him as a seer not a Prophet of Manifestation of God…

Baha’is do accept a trinity belief which you also may not be aware of…

Here is the statement of Abdul-Baha:

THE TRINITY

Question. – What is the meaning of the Trinity, of the Three Persons in One?
Answer. – The Divine Reality, which is purified and sanctified from the understanding of human beings and which can never be imagined by the people of wisdom and of intelligence, is exempt from all conception. That Lordly Reality admits of no division; for division and multiplicity are properties of creatures which are contingent existences, and not accidents which happen to the self-existent.
The Divine Reality is sanctified from singleness, then how much more from plurality. The descent of that Lordly Reality into conditions and degrees would be equivalent to imperfection and contrary to perfection, and is, therefore, absolutely impossible. It perpetually has been, and is, in the exaltation of holiness and sanctity. All that is mentioned of the Manifestations and Dawning-places of God signifies the divine reflection, and not a descent into the conditions of existence.[1]
[1 Cf. “Pantheism,” p. 290.]

God is pure perfection, and creatures are but imperfections. For God to descend into the conditions of existence would be the greatest of imperfections; on the contrary, His manifestation, His appearance, His rising are like the reflection of the sun in a clear, pure, polished mirror. All the creatures are evident signs of God, like the earthly beings upon all of which the rays of the sun shine. But upon the plains, the mountains, the trees and fruits, only a portion of the light shines, through which they become visible, and are reared, and attain to the object of their existence, while the Perfect Man [1] is in the condition of a clear mirror in which the Sun of Reality becomes visible and manifest with all its qualities and perfections. So the Reality of Christ was a clear and polished mirror of the greatest purity and fineness. The Sun of Reality, the Essence of Divinity, reflected itself in this mirror and manifested its light and heat in it; but from the exaltation of its holiness, and the heaven of its sanctity, the Sun did not descend to dwell and abide in the mirror. No, it continues to subsist in its exaltation and sublimity, while appearing and becoming manifest in the mirror in beauty and perfection.
[1 The Divine Manifestation.]

Now if we say that we have seen the Sun in two mirrors – one the Christ and one the Holy Spirit – that is to say, that we have seen three Suns, one in heaven and the two others on the earth, we speak truly. And if we say that there is one Sun, and it is pure singleness, and has no partner and equal, we again speak truly.

The epitome of the discourse is that the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Reality – that is to say, the Essence of Oneness, with its infinite perfections and attributes – became visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multiplied – for the Sun is one – but it appeared in the mirror. This is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son,” meaning that the Sun is visible and manifest in this mirror.

The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which becomes visible and evident in the Reality of Christ. The Sonship station is the heart of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is the station of the spirit of Christ. Hence it has become certain and proved that the Essence of Divinity is absolutely unique and has no equal, no likeness, no equivalent.
This is the signification of the Three Persons of the Trinity. If it were otherwise, the foundations of the Religion of God would rest upon an illogical proposition which the mind could never conceive, and how can the mind be forced to believe a thing which it cannot conceive?

A thing cannot be grasped by the intelligence except when it is clothed in an intelligible form; otherwise, it is but an effort of the imagination.

It has now become clear, from this explanation, what is the meaning of the Three Persons of the Trinity. The Oneness of God is also proved.

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 112
 
arthra said:
Thanks for your question!

Historically many Baha’is supported Esperanto as a universal auxilary language Abdul-Baha encouraged it and early Baha’is like Martha Root were very fluent in Esperanto/ Also the youngest daughter of the founder of Esperanto Lidia Zamenhof became a Baha’i and translated many of teh Bhaa’i Writings into Esperanto…

See:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidia_Zamenhof

The league of Nations also adopted Esperanto… although we Baha’is accept that there should be an international auxiliary language we are not saying it has to be Esperanto… It could be one of the languages already widely in use and is really up to the international community to decide.
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It is such a shame that Lidia Zamenhof was exterminated at Treblinka. I wonder if she was killed by the Nutzis for her Jewish blood,or her promotion of Esperanto, or her Baha’i faith? I think the germans hated all three, and all three have been persecuted through the years.

Why can’t people get along? I think if more people adapted and practiced the Baha’i faith, more people would get along, and just maybe their would be peace.
 
Dear Artha,

I note you like my Bahai friend fail to address many of the points I raise about your faith. Every time I point out an obvious flaw you side step it and try to switch topics or to pick up on something else.
arthra said:
You may not be aware of this but the Baha’i view is that Jesus was a Manifestation of God and that He was a mediator between God and humanity, that He was born of Mary in a miraculous way. Jesus died on the cross and was martyred.
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We do not share that opinion that he was a manifestation of God, even though I am aware of your use of the term manifestation. Jesus is the second person of the Trinity, the son of God. He is the word incarnate, not a manifestation. God came to earth to redeem us for we could not save ourselves from sin. I note as well you DO NOT CLAIM THAT HE ROSE FROM THE DEAD as the Gospels and Acts tells us! Again our faiths contradict.
arthra said:
Unless you are a Mormon and accept Joseph Smith all I can say is that Baha’is regard him as a seer not a Prophet of Manifestation of God…
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Joseph Smith sect regard you the Bahai as a false religion (as do Christians and Muslims by the way). They see him as a prophet. I don’t, just as I reject your Bab and Mohammed. Again your religious views are contradictory with the Mormons and with Christians and Muslims. One group must right and all others wrong. Logic dictates this. You constantly ignore the obvious.

As for the statement of Abdul-Baha on the Trinity, it blatantly denies that God came to earth in the incarnation. Its version of the Trinity is nothing compared to ours, so while you may claim you believe in “a Trinity”, its not our version of the Trinity. It teaches that Jesus is NOT God which we flatly reject. It preaches a belief in pantheism which we also reject flat out.

In other words we are back to where we started. If you don’t mind I would rather not read any more of Abdul-Baha as it serves to only strengthen what I believe about your faith.

I shall be winding down from this thread shortly just so you guys know. As always God speed be with you.

Bhtech
 
pipper said:
It is such a shame that Lidia Zamenhof was exterminated at Treblinka. I wonder if she was killed by the Nutzis for her Jewish blood,or her promotion of Esperanto, or her Baha’i faith? I think the germans hated all three, and all three have been persecuted through the years.

Why can’t people get along? I think if more people adapted and practiced the Baha’i faith, more people would get along, and just maybe their would be peace.
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Lidia was a Jew and voluntarily returned to Germany/Poland to be with her family in crisis. She was an Esperantist and a Baha’i which were also condemned by the Nazis for their internationalist orientations.

The Baha’i Faith was made illegal in Germany and it’s Centers were closed and Baha’i literature destroyed also some Baha’is were imprisoned. After the WWII the German Baha’is rebuilt and today in Frankfurt is the European Baha’i House of Worship… but the heroism of Lidia Zamenhof and her sacrifice is little known.

thm-a02.yimg.com/image/0161c58e5599aca4
 
“I note as well you DO NOT CLAIM THAT HE ROSE FROM THE DEAD as the Gospels and Acts tells us! Again our faiths contradict.”

I wrote about this earlier. Does it matter that the physical body rose from the tomb? What does that do for me? Nothing, and none of you here have seen it. “Blessed those who have not seen an believe”. Why does the Gospel also tell us that the early Church was the Body of Christ, that arose after three days? This matters to me. Someone cared to teach someone who taught someone etc etc until David Mark learned of the Gospel.
This is the true, the miraculous and important meaning of the Gospel.
 
Bhtech,

You write:

Again your religious views are contradictory with the Mormons and with Christians and Muslims. One group must right and all others wrong. Logic dictates this. You constantly ignore the obvious.

With all respect to you and your beliefs all I can do is provide what I know about Baha’i Faith to you on this forum…

I know our beliefs contradict what you believe and also they are a minority opinion but I would urge you to first at least to listen to our beliefs first and accurately represent them before presenting an argument about them…

Your statement:

If you don’t mind I would rather not read any more of Abdul-Baha as it serves to only strengthen what I believe about your faith.

This is rather unfortunate I think because Abdul-Baha was the authorized Interpreter of His Father’s Writings. If you ever hope to understand the Baha’i perspective I doubt very much you can do so without knowing much about Abdul-Baha…
 
Is there a web-site in English (without the thees and thous of KJV) that gives a basic over-view of the Baha’i faith?
 
I think you all need to pray the rosary for awhile and see what happens. Try it…you’ll like it! And…you will be amazed at what takes place on the inner levels of your mind and soul. Give it a try…there is nothing to lose and so much to gain. God bless everyone. Jewells
 
Siddhartha said:
Wait, 50 years ago the Mass would be in Latin. A little “thee” and “thou” won’t hurt you.😃

bahai.org/
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50 years ago I was a baby and probably in a cry-room or nursery, for as long as I can remember the Mass has been in English. (I’m not one of the hyper-conservative people who goes to the Tridentine Mass lol.) If I were hyper-conservative I would’t be here at all asking about the Baha’i faith would I?

The fact is I have had a stroke, and I have trouble comprehending KJV english and Latin as well.

I have bookmarked the Site you recommend and will for sure be back to read it at my leisure.
 
Pipper…your judgemental attitude towards those who participate in the Latin Mass shows such a lack of tolerance for diversity. Those people are a minority at this time and I think it wrong to talk about them and treat them as if they are inferior to you…just because they are differsnt from you . Where is your incluciveness?
 
jewells17 said:
Pipper…your judgemental attitude towards those who participate in the Latin Mass shows such a lack of tolerance for diversity. Those people are a minority at this time and I think it wrong to talk about them and treat them as if they are inferior to you…just because they are differsnt from you . Where is your incluciveness?
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Jewells, I am not being judgemental towards those who enjoy the Tridentine Mass is not judgemental at all. To repeat myself I can hardly understand a single word of Latin, so I personally prefer Mass in english. For those who enjoy, can understand, and prefer the Tridentine Mass…more power to them. I do NOT think them inferior. If anything going by the things in the Traditional (ist) Catholic forum here it is perhaps they who think I am inferior.

BTW, I do pray the rosary daily in English:)

And like I also said before I have had a stroke (which infuenced me intelectally and linguisically).
 

Since this thread has several themes I will post on one or two of them.-Ron in Tasmania:cool:​

The virgin birth from a Baha’i perspective is not the ground for believing in God or the uniqueness of Christ. The Baha’i Faith affirms the validity of Jesus’ virgin birth, accepting it on faith as one of the wonderful miracles of God. As a Baha’i, I do not defend this teaching from a physical standpoint. In the same way the Baha’i teachings explain that Christ’s resurrection was a spiritual and divine fact, not a material reality. Jesus said He came down from heaven, as is written in John 6:38, yet we know He came from the womb of Mary. Jesus was speaking of His spiritual reality, as were the Gospels writers in their stories about His resurrection.​

I speculate, as do many others, that Christ did a wonderful job of teaching His disciples the art of relating a parable to impart an important message concerning His Divine reality, His birth and His death. That message, to me, was that neither the government, nor the combined will of the confused and unbelieving masses, nor a physical death can destroy a divinely commanded spiritual truth. Christianity would live on, long after the crucifixion. The variations in the details of the story don’t detract from the message but, rather, may serve to test the believer and warn everyone against taking the Word so literally.

I sometimes use this and several other excellent examples to illustrate the spiritual foundation of the Bible as much more important and authoritative than a literal reading of it. For instance, each of the Gospels reports a sign put over Jesus’ head while He hung on the cross. No two report the same wording. It just doesn’t matter, in the grand scheme, really, except to confirm that a literal interpretation might steer you wrong.​

By definition miracles are not “possible.” Yet the impossible seems to happen and we often attribute it to divine intervention. The Baha’i teachings acknowledge the reality of miracles only as confirmations for the person or persons who witness them, not as a “sign to a corrupt and unbelieving generation,” to paraphrase the words of Christ. Miracles should not be a foundation for belief in God or acceptance of any Prophet. Jesus refused to perform one for the purpose of proving Himself to disbelievers.​

Some miracles appear to be magic tricks, particularly given today’s technology. But why does it matter either way? Faith in God should not depend on anyone else’s tale of a miracle. Love God because of His bounties, because of His love for you, because of how little you would be or have without Him, or for any number of similar reasons, not because you saw the sun dancing in the sky or because your crucifix turned gold.​

The biblical miracles do not make Christianity superior to those claimed by other religions and Baha’i acceptance of them does not derive, as far as I know, from any special list of biblical quotations. My approach will not, I’m sure, be entirely satisfactory to others here, but it is very close to what most Baha’is might say and what any “official” and “authoritative” view might be if you wrote to the present international body–the Universal House of Justice. Anyway, these are just one man’s views, my views.-Ron in Australia
 
pipper said:
Is there a web-site in English (without the thees and thous of KJV) that gives a basic over-view of the Baha’i faith?
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Siddartha very kindly posted the international web site for the Baha’i Faith. I wanted to post a few others that may be useful for learning more about Baha’i Faith.

One is the Baha’i Reference Library at

reference.bahai.org/en/

It has the Writings translated into English that are available to us English speakers. The Writings are still being translated and made available … Some of the Writings of Baha’u’llah and many from the Bab have yet to be translated into English. Anyway there is a search engine that you may find helpful.

For appreciating diversity of Baha’i culture I suggest:

livestream.com/bahaitv?referrer=mogulus

For news about the Baha’i world I’d suggest:

news.bahai.org/

The following is the main website for the Baha’is of the United States:

bahai.us/
 
I think the same way Christianity (emphasis on spirituality) broke away from Judaism (emphasis on laws and rituals) , Bahai (spirituality) broke away from Islam (laws and rituals)…
 
The passion of Jesus Christ, and indeed His whole public ministry, alone
offer a parallel to the Mission and death of the Báb, a parallel which no student of comparative religion can fail to perceive or ignore.
In the youthfulness and meekness of the Inaugurator of the Bábí Dispensation;
in the extreme brevity and turbulence of His public ministry;
in the dramatic swiftness with which that ministry moved towards its climax;
in the apostolic order which He instituted, and the primacy which He conferred on one of its members;
in the boldness of His challenge to the time-honored conventions, rites and laws which had been woven into the fabric of the religion He Himself had been born into;
in the role which an officially recognized and firmly entrenched religious hierarchy played as chief instigator of the outrages which He was made to suffer;
in the indignities heaped upon Him; in the suddenness of His arrest;
in the interrogation to which He was subjected;
in the derision poured, and the scourging inflicted, upon Him;
in the public affront He sustained; and, finally,
in His ignominious suspension before the gaze of a hostile multitude –
in all these we cannot fail to discern a remarkable similarity
to the distinguishing features of the career of Jesus Christ.
(Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 56)
 
Hadi said:
I think the same way Christianity (emphasis on spirituality) broke away from Judaism (emphasis on laws and rituals) , Bahai (spirituality) broke away from Islam (laws and rituals)…
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As a Muslim, do you see Baha’i as a heresy?
 
jewells17 said:
I think you all need to pray the rosary for awhile and see what happens. Try it…you’ll like it! And…you will be amazed at what takes place on the inner levels of your mind and soul. Give it a try…there is nothing to lose and so much to gain. God bless everyone. Jewells
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You do realize that Baha’is that were formerly Catholics can recite the rosary with no conflict, right?

One Baha’i wrote a short blog about it.
 
Everyone can pray the rosary and even the chaplet of divine mercy…which is prayed daily at 3pm. That is a powerful prayer. Google it and pray it today at 3pm with others all over the world that stop whatever they are doing at 3pm to pray the chaplet of divine mercy.
 
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