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Jerusha
Guest
Thank you for your clarification.
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ZAKI
Guest
Hence you think that the Quran is false. That is your view…and my view is that it is correct
wasalam
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NoWings
Guest
I think the main obstacle the Baha’i faith will encounter with non-Protestant groups is the Eucharist.
I don’t really see those who believe in the Real Presence converting to a belief that sees its institution as merely symbolic. If Baha’u’llah had any foresight, he would’ve written extensively on the subject.
Yes, I’m keeping in mind that there are tablets still written in Farsi that haven’t been translated yet, but I’m not expecting anything regardless.
I don’t really see those who believe in the Real Presence converting to a belief that sees its institution as merely symbolic. If Baha’u’llah had any foresight, he would’ve written extensively on the subject.
Yes, I’m keeping in mind that there are tablets still written in Farsi that haven’t been translated yet, but I’m not expecting anything regardless.
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ZAKI
Guest
i don’t mind bahai (i havent met any yet) but i simply cant accept their religion when i have already accepted islam. and alhamdullilah islam is going perfectly well for me so i wont be converting to bahai anytime soon or converting back to christianity.LOL Baha’i and Islam. I knew that I was opening myself up for a good one, since the relationship between Christianity and Judaism has had similar troubles. Maybe that is why the HQ of Baha’i is in Israel.
wasalam
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DavidMark
Guest
Planten: Of course, we all die, and the soul persists, in a state conditioned by our choices and God’s grace. But for us, Christ is another sort of Being, pre-existent and Lord of Creation, the Logos, the Primal Will, God manifest –in order to teach us something of God Hidden.
When “He” comes again, as “the Son of man” upon the “clouds” –it is the same Primal Will, with a new Name, to teach mankind another chapter of the Mother Book. Each age goes off somewhat on interpretations, as the Jews did with their Messiah, expecting the lion to lay down with the lamb, so to speak, or rule with a rod of iron and oust the Romans. It is the Herculean task of the divine Voice to remonstrate the wickedness of the “divines” and raise up the pure-hearted who submit without question. What is different about the Scriptures is the form they took when the Word was given. The Qur’án, to me, is like the Torah should be to Christians. But Jesus explained it as no one else could; likewise the Báb & Bahá’u’lláh revealed the Word again with much greater scope, sometimes commenting on previous Revelations, through their own Revelations!
**
For it is evident that whoso hath failed to acknowledge the truth of the Qur’án hath in reality failed to acknowledge the truth of the preceding Scriptures.** (Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 204)
We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified. **(Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 85)
When “He” comes again, as “the Son of man” upon the “clouds” –it is the same Primal Will, with a new Name, to teach mankind another chapter of the Mother Book. Each age goes off somewhat on interpretations, as the Jews did with their Messiah, expecting the lion to lay down with the lamb, so to speak, or rule with a rod of iron and oust the Romans. It is the Herculean task of the divine Voice to remonstrate the wickedness of the “divines” and raise up the pure-hearted who submit without question. What is different about the Scriptures is the form they took when the Word was given. The Qur’án, to me, is like the Torah should be to Christians. But Jesus explained it as no one else could; likewise the Báb & Bahá’u’lláh revealed the Word again with much greater scope, sometimes commenting on previous Revelations, through their own Revelations!
**
For it is evident that whoso hath failed to acknowledge the truth of the Qur’án hath in reality failed to acknowledge the truth of the preceding Scriptures.** (Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 204)
- “Regarding your question relative to Surih 4:156 of the Qur’án in which Muhammad says that the Jews did not crucify Jesus, the Christ but one like Him; what is meant by this passage is that although the Jews succeeded in destroying the physical body of Jesus, yet they were impotent to destroy the Divine reality in Him.” (From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, March 19, 1938) (Lights of Guidance, p. 497)
We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified. **(Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 85)
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DavidMark
Guest
NoWings: (Concerning the Eucharist…sometimes the good medicine stings
“…**in the Catholic Church the child is taught that through some act of the priest the bread and wine of the sacrament become the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ. The mind cannot accept this. The child must be taught that this transformation is symbolical of the truth that Christ is the food from heaven, the eating of which produces eternal life. The Jews had memorized the Bible but failed to grasp its meanings. If they had understood the spiritual significances of the scriptures, they would have been the first believers in Christ. You are among the first believers in this country. You are the children of the Kingdom. Bahá’u’lláh has taught you the reality of religion.” **(‘Abdu’l-Bahá, PUP, p. 213)
**“There are two kinds of sacrifice: the physical and the spiritual. The explanation made by the churches concerning this subject is, in reality, superstition. For instance, it is recorded in the Gospel that Christ said, “I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever.” He also said, “This [wine] is my blood … which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” These verses have been interpreted by the churches in such a superstitious way that it is impossible for human reason to understand or accept the explanation.” **(‘Abdu’l-Bahá, PUP, p. 449)
**I was crucified for having unveiled to men’s eyes the hidden gems of Thy glorious unity, for having revealed to them the wondrous signs of Thy sovereign and everlasting power. How bitter the humiliations heaped upon Me, in a subsequent age, on the plain of Karbila! How lonely did I feel amidst Thy people! To what a state of helplessness I was reduced in that land! Unsatisfied with such indignities, My persecutors decapitated Me, and, carrying aloft My head from land to land paraded it before the gaze of the unbelieving multitude, and deposited it on the seats of the perverse and faithless.
In a later age, I was suspended, and My breast was made a target to the darts of the malicious cruelty of My foes. My limbs were riddled with bullets, and My body was torn asunder.
Finally, behold how, in this Day, My treacherous enemies have leagued themselves against Me, and are continually plotting to instill the venom of hate and malice into the souls of Thy servants. With all their might they are scheming to accomplish their purpose… Grievous as is My plight, O God, My Well-Beloved, I render thanks unto Thee, and My Spirit is grateful for whatsoever hath befallen me in the path of Thy good-pleasure. I am well pleased with that which Thou didst ordain for Me, and welcome, however calamitous, the pains and sorrows I am made to suffer. **(Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 88)
“…**in the Catholic Church the child is taught that through some act of the priest the bread and wine of the sacrament become the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ. The mind cannot accept this. The child must be taught that this transformation is symbolical of the truth that Christ is the food from heaven, the eating of which produces eternal life. The Jews had memorized the Bible but failed to grasp its meanings. If they had understood the spiritual significances of the scriptures, they would have been the first believers in Christ. You are among the first believers in this country. You are the children of the Kingdom. Bahá’u’lláh has taught you the reality of religion.” **(‘Abdu’l-Bahá, PUP, p. 213)
**“There are two kinds of sacrifice: the physical and the spiritual. The explanation made by the churches concerning this subject is, in reality, superstition. For instance, it is recorded in the Gospel that Christ said, “I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever.” He also said, “This [wine] is my blood … which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” These verses have been interpreted by the churches in such a superstitious way that it is impossible for human reason to understand or accept the explanation.” **(‘Abdu’l-Bahá, PUP, p. 449)
**I was crucified for having unveiled to men’s eyes the hidden gems of Thy glorious unity, for having revealed to them the wondrous signs of Thy sovereign and everlasting power. How bitter the humiliations heaped upon Me, in a subsequent age, on the plain of Karbila! How lonely did I feel amidst Thy people! To what a state of helplessness I was reduced in that land! Unsatisfied with such indignities, My persecutors decapitated Me, and, carrying aloft My head from land to land paraded it before the gaze of the unbelieving multitude, and deposited it on the seats of the perverse and faithless.
In a later age, I was suspended, and My breast was made a target to the darts of the malicious cruelty of My foes. My limbs were riddled with bullets, and My body was torn asunder.
Finally, behold how, in this Day, My treacherous enemies have leagued themselves against Me, and are continually plotting to instill the venom of hate and malice into the souls of Thy servants. With all their might they are scheming to accomplish their purpose… Grievous as is My plight, O God, My Well-Beloved, I render thanks unto Thee, and My Spirit is grateful for whatsoever hath befallen me in the path of Thy good-pleasure. I am well pleased with that which Thou didst ordain for Me, and welcome, however calamitous, the pains and sorrows I am made to suffer. **(Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 88)
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planten
Guest
**Discussing Bahaullah.
DM, i had asked you a few simple questions about what you had posted. You have not replied to the point. Instead you have started giving more lecture. i need to understand what you had written previously please.
You say “Jesus was crucified but the spirit of Christ was not.” Does it mean that only the body of Jesus was Crucified? Crucified means death on the cross. So according to you, the body of Jesus died on the cross. But his spirit did not die? What do you mean? please explain all that.
From North and South, you have written that Bahaullah spoke about it:
Will you tell who is “He” in your above quote? It seems to be Baha.
Please tell who is “He”? with capital H?
Please see your words or words of someone below;
Please explain the words “He” and “His”. If they are about Jesus then it a good way of pleasing the christians, by the Baha’is.
DM, you are not explaining anything. You are running ahead with your own tempo. Who is He in above passage? Is it Baha or Jesus? With He in Capital form, it means that according to Baha’is, Jesus is God or Baha is God. Please explain…
The gleanings from writings of bahaullah means these are not the acual words of Bahaullah. Is that right?? Some one has extracted these words from the actual writings of Bahaullah? So where are the actual writings of bahaullah?
As far as i am concerned, you please post my own words and then explain the problems about the Baha’i faith.
DM, i had asked you a few simple questions about what you had posted. You have not replied to the point. Instead you have started giving more lecture. i need to understand what you had written previously please.
You say “Jesus was crucified but the spirit of Christ was not.” Does it mean that only the body of Jesus was Crucified? Crucified means death on the cross. So according to you, the body of Jesus died on the cross. But his spirit did not die? What do you mean? please explain all that.
From North and South, you have written that Bahaullah spoke about it:
** to pronounce the right to be the left or the south to be the north, He speaketh the truth and there is no doubt of it.
Will you tell who is “He” in your above quote? It seems to be Baha.
Please tell who is “He”? with capital H?
…
Please see your words or words of someone below;
came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified. (Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 85)
Please explain the words “He” and “His”. If they are about Jesus then it a good way of pleasing the christians, by the Baha’is.
DM, you are not explaining anything. You are running ahead with your own tempo. Who is He in above passage? Is it Baha or Jesus? With He in Capital form, it means that according to Baha’is, Jesus is God or Baha is God. Please explain…
The gleanings from writings of bahaullah means these are not the acual words of Bahaullah. Is that right?? Some one has extracted these words from the actual writings of Bahaullah? So where are the actual writings of bahaullah?
As far as i am concerned, you please post my own words and then explain the problems about the Baha’i faith.
D
DavidMark
Guest
Planten: Thank you for keeping me to the subject. I thought it was explained.
Clearly, only the body of Jesus was crucified, but not His Spirit. (And if the tenants kill the the son, what will the Lord of the Vineyard do…?)
If you look closely, you will see all my explanation began with “He”. This HE that we are so concerned about is the pre-existent Lord, the protected Tree of Life in the Garden, that appears in every dispensation, “before Abraham I was” and the Voice from the Burning Bush. It is the Spirit of Christ that cannot die, and which has dawned again with a new name. Baha’u’llah said:
O Jews! If ye be intent on crucifying once again Jesus, the Spirit of God, put Me to death, for He hath once more, in My person, been made manifest unto you. Deal with Me as ye wish, for I have vowed to lay down My life in the path of God. I will fear no one, though the powers of earth and heaven be leagued against Me…
(Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 101)
Interestingly, there is much in the Writings about the subject of “HE”, há, the letter H, stands for Hahút the Unknowable Essence. Ya Huva, (O He!). We can only know what HE reveals through His Manifestations. Many Tablets begin with “He is God!” which refers to all the Manifestations, especially Baha’u’llah, because He reflects the full glory of the Godhead, like the moon reflects the sun, when it is full. It is the same light, but a more complete “Message”. A tradition in Islam said that with one word, the Promised One would put all the religious leaders to flight. That word is “I” in “I am God” …and in each age, they think it is heresy and apostasy etc for the Manifestation to speak as God.
All these Gleanings are His Writings, red-letter if you wish. Imagine Jesus leaving a million verses! That is what we have in this Day! “Gleanings” was compiled and translated by the Guardian, Shoghi Effendi, in the 1930s, and has been in many editions. He was educated in England, and was the great grand-son of Baha’u’llah. Some are short letters of a few pages, some are extracts from Books fully translated elsewhere, all are in the Archives on Mount Carmel in Israel. There was no way he could translate everything, so committees closely follow his style, observing his use of every word, in preparing translations of previously unavailable texts to the world, not only in English, but hundreds of languages. Praise be to God, the Lord of all the worlds!
Clearly, only the body of Jesus was crucified, but not His Spirit. (And if the tenants kill the the son, what will the Lord of the Vineyard do…?)
If you look closely, you will see all my explanation began with “He”. This HE that we are so concerned about is the pre-existent Lord, the protected Tree of Life in the Garden, that appears in every dispensation, “before Abraham I was” and the Voice from the Burning Bush. It is the Spirit of Christ that cannot die, and which has dawned again with a new name. Baha’u’llah said:
O Jews! If ye be intent on crucifying once again Jesus, the Spirit of God, put Me to death, for He hath once more, in My person, been made manifest unto you. Deal with Me as ye wish, for I have vowed to lay down My life in the path of God. I will fear no one, though the powers of earth and heaven be leagued against Me…
(Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 101)
Interestingly, there is much in the Writings about the subject of “HE”, há, the letter H, stands for Hahút the Unknowable Essence. Ya Huva, (O He!). We can only know what HE reveals through His Manifestations. Many Tablets begin with “He is God!” which refers to all the Manifestations, especially Baha’u’llah, because He reflects the full glory of the Godhead, like the moon reflects the sun, when it is full. It is the same light, but a more complete “Message”. A tradition in Islam said that with one word, the Promised One would put all the religious leaders to flight. That word is “I” in “I am God” …and in each age, they think it is heresy and apostasy etc for the Manifestation to speak as God.
All these Gleanings are His Writings, red-letter if you wish. Imagine Jesus leaving a million verses! That is what we have in this Day! “Gleanings” was compiled and translated by the Guardian, Shoghi Effendi, in the 1930s, and has been in many editions. He was educated in England, and was the great grand-son of Baha’u’llah. Some are short letters of a few pages, some are extracts from Books fully translated elsewhere, all are in the Archives on Mount Carmel in Israel. There was no way he could translate everything, so committees closely follow his style, observing his use of every word, in preparing translations of previously unavailable texts to the world, not only in English, but hundreds of languages. Praise be to God, the Lord of all the worlds!
D
DavidMark
Guest
"Followers of the Gospel," Bahá’u’lláh addressing the whole of Christendom exclaims, “behold the gates of heaven are flung open. He that had ascended unto it is now come. Give ear to His voice calling aloud over land and sea, announcing to all mankind the advent of this Revelation – a Revelation through the agency of which the Tongue of Grandeur is now proclaiming: ‘Lo, the sacred Pledge hath been fulfilled, for He, the Promised One, is come!’” "The voice of the Son of Man is calling aloud from the sacred vale: ‘Here am I, here am I, O God my God!’ … whilst from the Burning Bush breaketh forth the cry: ‘Lo, the Desire of the world is made manifest in His transcendent glory!’ The Father hath come. That which ye were promised in the Kingdom of God is fulfilled.(quoted in The World Order of Baha’u’llah, p. 104)
**“Be fair, ye peoples of the world;” **He thus appeals to mankind, “is it meet and seemly for you to question the authority of one Whose presence ‘He Who conversed with God’ (Moses) hath longed to attain, the beauty of Whose countenance ‘God’s Well-beloved’ (Muhammad) had yearned to behold, through the potency of Whose love the ‘Spirit of God’ (Jesus) ascended to heaven, for Whose sake the ‘Primal Point’ (the Bab) offered up His life?”(The World Order of Baha’u’llah, p. 106)
**“Be fair, ye peoples of the world;” **He thus appeals to mankind, “is it meet and seemly for you to question the authority of one Whose presence ‘He Who conversed with God’ (Moses) hath longed to attain, the beauty of Whose countenance ‘God’s Well-beloved’ (Muhammad) had yearned to behold, through the potency of Whose love the ‘Spirit of God’ (Jesus) ascended to heaven, for Whose sake the ‘Primal Point’ (the Bab) offered up His life?”(The World Order of Baha’u’llah, p. 106)
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DavidMark
Guest
Jerusha: You say “All roads lead to Rome” What does this mean? Why were the spiritual and administrative centers in Christianity and Islam different? They are both united for Baha’is, on Mount Carmel, which is seeing the emergence of a “new Jerusalem”.
Although the Israelis themselves are unaware of the full significance of this “Ark” in their presence, it will become as obvious as the sun at noon-day, that all roads lead to the Holy Land.
**At every instant, I beg for you assistance, bounty, and a fresh favour and blessing, so that the confirmations of Bahá’u’lláh may, like unto the sea, be constantly surging, the lights of the Sun of Truth may shine upon you all and that ye may be confirmed in service, may become the manifestations of bounty and that each one of you may, at dawn, turn unto the Holy Land and may experience spiritual emotions with all intensity.**Selections from the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha, p. 89)
Verily, I say unto you that the Word of God has assuredly been explained and has become an evident sign and a strong and solid proof, and its traces shall be spread in the East and West, and to these all heads shall bow and all souls shall submit and kneel down with their faces to the ground.(Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith, p. 360)
As Christians believe in Moses, so the Jews should believe in Jesus. As the Muhammadans believe in Christ and Moses, so likewise the Jews and the Christians should believe in Muhammad. Then all disputes would disappear, all then would be united. Bahá’u’lláh came for this purpose. He has made the three religions one. ~‘Abdu’l-Bahá in London, p. 43
**The different religions have one truth underlying them; therefore, their reality is one. **~Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 105
…and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. (John 10:16b KJV)
Although the Israelis themselves are unaware of the full significance of this “Ark” in their presence, it will become as obvious as the sun at noon-day, that all roads lead to the Holy Land.
**At every instant, I beg for you assistance, bounty, and a fresh favour and blessing, so that the confirmations of Bahá’u’lláh may, like unto the sea, be constantly surging, the lights of the Sun of Truth may shine upon you all and that ye may be confirmed in service, may become the manifestations of bounty and that each one of you may, at dawn, turn unto the Holy Land and may experience spiritual emotions with all intensity.**Selections from the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha, p. 89)
Verily, I say unto you that the Word of God has assuredly been explained and has become an evident sign and a strong and solid proof, and its traces shall be spread in the East and West, and to these all heads shall bow and all souls shall submit and kneel down with their faces to the ground.(Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith, p. 360)
As Christians believe in Moses, so the Jews should believe in Jesus. As the Muhammadans believe in Christ and Moses, so likewise the Jews and the Christians should believe in Muhammad. Then all disputes would disappear, all then would be united. Bahá’u’lláh came for this purpose. He has made the three religions one. ~‘Abdu’l-Bahá in London, p. 43
**The different religions have one truth underlying them; therefore, their reality is one. **~Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 105
…and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. (John 10:16b KJV)
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NoWings
Guest
See, there’s a problem with this. Abdu’l Baha apparently doesn’t take into account that the Church formed the Bible, not the other way around. By the time the Bible was assembled, the Didache and the Church Fathers had many writings on the Real Presence in the Eucharist.
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Jerusha
Guest
As I have said, I believe that all the good that is in Baha’i is also in Catholicism. And most of the antiquated and out-of-date traditions in Catholicism that Baha’i criticizes were discarded in Vatican II. Only the unfolding of future history will tell. Please read and compare Papal Encyclicals and Baha’i letters-- many common threads.
In most respects, we have differences of belief, not, as in LDS, of ethics. However, Baha’i believes that the culmination will be a world theocracy. I believe that government and religion should always be separate, that they should only advise each other, because of the only too human tendency of abuse of power. That is the role that Baha’i has taken so far, and that is good, despite the fear many people have of Baha’i.
So we can be allies of differing beliefs, at present.
The readings you posted are very good.
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NoWings
Guest
Given Baha’is forbiddance of becoming involved in politics, this will absolutely never happen. Period.
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Jerusha
Guest
That is what I also perceive. There seems to be a contradiction there. Misperception can lead to some mighty tragic prejudices
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planten
Guest
I wanted to know from if Jesus died on the cross. Please give plain answer.
Also about HE, it appears that it is Bahaullah. So according to Baha’is, Bahaullah is God? Please reply. It is else where known also that bahaullah was revealing things to bab. So bahaullah was God?
I do not need any long lecture. Please tell me if Bahaullah is God. or deny it.
** Thats for telling me that gleanings are His writing. Now here is HIS again in Capital form. It means that these are the wrings of Bahaullah who is God Almighty. Gleanings cannot be the translations of the real words of Bahaullah. Otherwise they would not be called Gleanings. It seems that it has some kind of commentary. That cannot be the real original words of Bahaullah.
Where are the original words of Bahaullah?? In what language they are?? Are they available outside Mount Carmel? More questions are coming to you. But you have not made it easy to understand the earlier points. Please be brief**.
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NoWings
Guest
Baha’u’llah reflected the divine attributes the way a mirror reflects the sun.
D
DavidMark
Guest
Planten: 60% of Bahá’u’lláh’s Writings were in eloquent Arabic, and 40% in His sweet native Persian (Farsí). Try to understand when I say that Gleanings means a collection of some of His massive Writings, which cannot be contained in one volumne.
The divine Messengers ARE and ARE NOT God, as the reflection of the Sun in the Mirror, is and is not the Sun.
The divine Messengers ARE and ARE NOT God, as the reflection of the Sun in the Mirror, is and is not the Sun.
A
abirdrrl
Guest
Just a note- Baha’is capital the pronouns for all Manifestations, so, for example, Christ, Muhammad and Baha’u’llah would all recieve capital pronouns. This is out of respect for Their station, not to imply that They are God.
- Status