"The Baha'i Faith"

[Siddhartha]

Just as a personal note, I returned to Christianity partly because of the perceived relative amount of “wiggle room” on the subject of homosexuality that Christianity offered.

What were the other reasons you returned to Christianity?

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

What were the other reasons you returned to Christianity?

The main reason was and is the overpowering majesty of Jesus Christ. Despite a limited story of his life and teachings, his appeal draws me more than any other religious “founder”. I returned to the church of my youth, and perhaps the expression “you can take the boy out of the church, but you can’t take the church out of the boy”, applies here. I am now more devoted to Christ than ever. I meet him in the Eucharist.

 

[DavidMark]

Uzbek, I agree that just sayin it doesn’t make it so, unless it IS God who merely has to say BE and it is! His Word never goes out and returns empty. It will bear fruit.
I take friendly issue with jpaul1953 who is unaquainted about that which he disputes, as most people are.

He sees no humility in the Baha’i Faith because he has not looked, or has no eyes, never read about the life of action of 'Abdu’l-Baha, nor read the Writings which humble their readers, as good Scripture should. God provids the Example and the Spirit and the instructions, and it is up to the rest of us to be good servants and obey.
Being anybody’s servant is not really part of modern culture, but it should be. This squirrel cage of a blog should teach us all one thing: Act! When we are not composing replies, we should be out doing our Father’s business". And lives of martyrdom are challenging.
This quote was directed at an enemy of the Faith, but we may draw from it what we will:

If thou didst hear the Call yet fear and the desire to preserve thy life prompted thee to remain heedless to it, thou art such a person as hath never been nor is worthy of mention; if thou hast not heard it, then thou art bereft of the sense of hearing.
(Tablets of Baha’u’llah, p. 61)

 

[jpaul1953]

Uzbek, I agree that just sayin it doesn’t make it so, unless it IS God who merely has to say BE and it is! His Word never goes out and returns empty. It will bear fruit.
I take friendly issue with jpaul1953 who is unaquainted about that which he disputes, as most people are.

He sees no humility in the Baha’i Faith because he has not looked, or has no eyes, never read about the life of action of 'Abdu’l-Baha, nor read the Writings which humble their readers, as good Scripture should. God provids the Example and the Spirit and the instructions, and it is up to the rest of us to be good servants and obey.
Being anybody’s servant is not really part of modern culture, but it should be. This squirrel cage of a blog should teach us all one thing: Act! When we are not composing replies, we should be out doing our Father’s business". And lives of martyrdom are challenging.
This quote was directed at an enemy of the Faith, but we may draw from it what we will:

If thou didst hear the Call yet fear and the desire to preserve thy life prompted thee to remain heedless to it, thou art such a person as hath never been nor is worthy of mention; if thou hast not heard it, then thou art bereft of the sense of hearing.
(Tablets of Baha’u’llah, p. 61)

*Dear David,

Please tell me you don’t believe your faith to now be the truest faith with the correct ‘newly’ revealed knowledge that no other church has in completion as yours and I will refrain from defending my faith.

I’ve not heard anything from you that says that Baha’u’llah is not the much spoken about Second Coming of the Christ. Please explain and I will shut-up.

I’ve not heard anything from you that says the Christian faith is worth it.

I’ve not heard anything from you that says anything but “your faith believers are on the right path and we are not.”

All ‘walks of life’ have some humble ‘walkers’.

I ask you to let your intent be known. Are you defending your faith or are you looking for converts? If you are looking for converts, it’s your right. Just maybe be more clear about it.

May God guide us always.

Respectfully,

jpaul1953*

 

[jpaul1953]

One of the difficult things we face when dealing with fora such as this, is the insistent claim of truth on the part of disputants. Whether you are Catholic (as jpaul1953) or Baha’i (as DavidMark), we frankly get nowhere by making claims about one religion or another posessing absolute truth. I am sure that scholarly authorities of both religions recognize that peppering our speech with constant assertions that this or that religion is the ‘Faith of God" is a waste of time and an impediment to dialogue. Sayin’ it’s so don’t make it so!
I learned long ago that two people, sincere in their different faiths, can waste a great deal of time and get absolutely nowhere.

Similarly, the springing of proof texts from the Bible to show either that the Baha’i Faith is true, or that it is false, only convinces the side that is pulling up these texts. Catholics should especially be wary of this. Too often, Protestants argue against the Catholic Church based on isolated verses from the Bible. The Bible has been cited as the authority for any number of attrocities. Failure to read it as whole ought to be raised to the level of venial sin.

To some points raised in response to my first posting by DavidMark: I never, ever, heard a Baha’i author or other authority suggest that the non-deism of Buddhism or the polytheism of Hinduism were way stations on the road to monotheism. That frankly is a misunderstanding of the Baha’i position. The Baha’i position is that all the religions of the past taught the same message, but the message was tailored to the time, place, and capacity of the hearers. Thus, Abraham’s message was less detailed than that of Moses, etc. There have been interesting, non-scholarly attempts to establish that Buddha was a believer in God. Two such works, written by Jamshid Fozdar, I tossed long before leaving the Baha’i Faith, as they were so obviously unscholarly (attempting to relate the Indian word Amitabha to the Arabic word abha, for example)

To the conversation between Platen and arthra, the Baha’i position is that the Manifestations of God (including Jesus) were like mirrors, in which we can see the sun, but not the sun itself. Oddly, there is a book by Hasan Balyuzi, a hand of the cause, called simply “Baha’u’llah”, which is subtitled “the Word made Flesh”. I am not sure that Balyuzi understood the depth of meaning that phrase carries. Despite this curious titling, there is nothing in Baha’i theology that suggests an incarnation or virgin birth. It is curious that the virginity of Mary, and the Virgin Birth of Jesus is believed, but without any need for other Manifestations to be born in this way.

Finally, a word to DavidMark. Long cuts and pastes don’t advance your cause. Like you, I once believed in the power of the “creative word”, and the power of the words of Baha’u’llah held particular sway over me. It just doesn’t communicate to others.

As to religions posessing the whole truth, I remain in the warm spirituality of the Episcopal Church and the Anglican Communion. I am confident in our Lord and Savior, and in the sacraments. We don’t posess the whole truth (at least we don’t as far as we know). You Catholics and Baha’is could take a cue, but you won’t.

*Dear Usbek de Perse,

If you had understood my posts to both DavidMark and Mateo, I probably would have appreciated your desire to be the ‘Judge and Jury’ over both DavidMark and me.

Yes, it’s nice to take the middle ground at times, but you appear to be saying to both of us: “Boys Boys control yourselves. Let there be no division among you.” That is how I read your post.

I’m happy you are an Episcopalian Christian and I’m happy for DavidMark. And, no. Of course I don’t know alot about the Baha’i faith. To be straight up with you, I don’t have a need to leave the Catholic Church, but about ten years ago I had a need to find out more about my faith instead of leaving. Without making any claims so as not to appear presumptuous, I found myself to be at the right place.

Many young adults desire more than what they have, instead of looking anew at what they actually do have. They sometimes choose something new and different, many times because it makes them feel special and important like when they were young. This is not a good reason to leave one’s faith in my mind.

May God guide us always.

Respectfully,

jpaul1953*

 

[arthra]

Usbek wrote:

“… don’t want to answer all that I have read here, but I will make some observations. It is clear to me that while the Baha’i Faith mentions Buddhism and Hinduism, the references are oblique and passing. Both religions are counted among the religions of the past that are precursors to the Baha’i Faith, but it has been left to later scholars and pseudo scholars to reconcile obvious problems such as Buddhism’s lack of a deity, and Hinduism’s many deities.”

My own view is that at the time of the Manifestation of the Buddha… there were quite a few philosophical systems around in India and He wanted to avoid His teachings as being considered as just another one…so He avoided specific theological issues by not mentioning them … My view is that the Buddha’s teaching were “via negativa”…

Hinduism does have “monotheistic” elements along with everything else of course.

Since there are more Baha’is today in India than other countries I suspect there will be more scholars addressing the issues you mentioned.

The more civil liberties realized in the Middle East I believe there will be more Baha’is.

Both the Bab and Baha’u’llah accepted Christian scriptures which is not the case for the most part in Islam. I think for Christians though the recognition that the Bab was the Return of Christ is a crucial issue and why some do become Baha’is.

 

[planten]

Usbek wrote:

“… don’t want to answer all that I have read here, but I will make some observations. It is clear to me that while the Baha’i Faith mentions Buddhism and Hinduism, the references are oblique and passing. Both religions are counted among the religions of the past that are precursors to the Baha’i Faith, but it has been left to later scholars and pseudo scholars to reconcile obvious problems such as Buddhism’s lack of a deity, and Hinduism’s many deities.”

My own view is that at the time of the Manifestation of the Buddha… there were quite a few philosophical systems around in India and He wanted to avoid His teachings as being considered as just another one…so He avoided specific theological issues by not mentioning them … My view is that the Buddha’s teaching were “via negativa”…

Hinduism does have “monotheistic” elements along with everything else of course.

Since there are more Baha’is today in India than other countries I suspect there will be more scholars addressing the issues you mentioned.

The more civil liberties realized in the Middle East I believe there will be more Baha’is.

Both the Bab and Baha’u’llah accepted Christian scriptures which is not the case for the most part in Islam. I think for Christians though the recognition that the Bab was the Return of Christ is a crucial issue and why some do become Baha’is.

Please explain your last para, about Bab. Was he the second coming of Jesus? Or was bahaullah the Jesus? What you have written above is not clear. It appears that according to your writing, Bab was the return of Jesus. Is that what you mean?

 

[NoWings]

Please explain your last para, about Bab. Was he the second coming of Jesus? Or was bahaullah the Jesus? What you have written above is not clear. It appears that according to your writing, Bab was the return of Jesus. Is that what you mean?

They both were. They were both Manifestations.

 

[Siddhartha]

They both were.

Not “literally”, of course.

 

[arthra]

No Wings I think is correct, but here is the explanation provided from Baha’i sources:

Bahá’u’lláh explains that the “coming again” of Christ was
fulfilled in the advent of the Báb and in his own coming. He
says: –

Consider the sun. Were it to say now, “I am the sun
of yesterday,” it would speak the truth. And should it,
bearing the sequence of time in mind, claim to be other
than that sun, it still would speak the truth. In like manner,
if it be said that all the days are but one and the
same, it is correct and true. And if it be said, with respect
to their particular names and designations, that they
differ, that again is true. For though they are the same,
yet one doth recognize in each a separate designation, a
specific attribute, a particular character.

Conceive accordingly
the distinction, variation, and unity characteristic
of the various Manifestations of holiness, that thou
mayest comprehend the allusions made by the creator of
all names and attributes to the mysteries of distinction
and unity, and discover the answer to thy question as to
why that everlasting Beauty should have, at sundry times,
called Himself by different names and titles.

– Kitáb-i-Íqán,
21-22.

'Abdu’l-Bahá says: –

Know that the return of Christ for a second time doth
not mean what the people believe, but rather signifieth the
One promised to come after Him. He shall come with the
Kingdom of God and His Power which hath surrounded
the world. This dominion is in the world of hearts and
spirits, and not in that of matter; for the material world is
not comparable to a single wing of a fly, in the sight of the
Lord, wert thou of those who know!

Verily Christ came with His Kingdom from the beginning which hath no beginning,
and will come with His Kingdom to the eternity
of eternities, inasmuch as in this sense “Christ” is an expression
of the Divine Reality, the simple Essence and
heavenly Entity, which hath no beginning nor ending. It
hath appearance, arising, manifestation and setting in each
of the cycles.

From “Baha’u’llah and the New Era” pp. 223-234

 

[AngloCatholic1]

I was once an extremely active MEMBER of this religion (before I was baptized). At one time I was even invited to Catholic schools to give talks about the faith. I could write several pages (books even!) about why this faith is NOT compatible with Christianity. There’s simply no room in this forum for this, so let me just boldy state the following:

1. When you are first introduced to the Baha’i Faith, they will tell you that they are accepting of the major holy books of all the world’s religions - yes, even the Bible. But later, when you question them on established teachings right from the Bible, THEY WILL DENY THEM. For instance, they vehemently DENY the PHYSICAL RESURRECTION of Jesus Christ from the tomb! They IGNORE the scripture in Acts 1 wherein Christ PHYSICALLY appears to the Apostles and asks Thomas to touch His wounds. They DO NOT have a satisfactory explanation for this passage. They also DENY the teaching of the Apostle Paul in 1 Cor 15, where he tells us that unless we believe Christ was physically raised from the dead, we are still in our sins! (verse 17). Any religion which denies the PHYSICAL resurrection of Jesus Christ is NOT Christian.
2. The sacred writings of Baha’u’llah and his son Abdu’l Baha teach that the administrative order of the Baha’i Faith MUST consist of an elected “Universal House of Justice” (9 members) AND a Guardian (1 member). The Guardian MUST be the natural son of the previous Guardian (as in a Monarchy). The first Guardian, Shoghi Effendi, passed away SUDDENLY in 1957 WITHOUT ANY CHILDREN, and WITHOUT DESIGNATING A FUTURE GUARDIAN in his will. Therefore, the current Baha’i administration which consists ONLY of a 9-member “House of Justice” is in VIOLATION of the decrees set forth by the prophet founders of the faith! Furthermore, it is POWERLESS to legally appoint anyone else to fulfill the role of Guardian. So BY ITS OWN DEFINITION, the BAHA’I FAITH has, since 1957, CEASED to EXIST!
3. The Baha’i Faith teaches monogamy, but the fact is that the founder - Baha’u’llah - had more than one wife at the same time! Sorry folks, but any religious leader who says “Do as I say, but not as I do!” is NOT a man from God.

There are many other arguments against this cult, but there’s little room for them in this forum. Trust in Jesus Christ my friends, and do NOT listen to a different gospel!

 

[DavidMark]

AngloCatholic’s rant exemplifies this verse:

When a dead body is thrown into the ocean, the waves will throw it back upon the shore. So it is with the Ocean of Truth – it will not accept a dead body; and if a believer has not these bounties of God, the sea will roll until he is finally cast out.
('Abdul-Bahá, Baha’i Scriptures, p. 501)

Someone firm in the Covenant would never retreat and retract as he has unfortunately done. But to him be his path, and to the lovers of Bahá’u’lláh be theirs.

1.The first and foremost significance of the Resurrection is spiritual. THAT is what elevates your soul in the heaven of the love of Christ. It is moot to talk of this when we realize that He was in heaven before He came, while He was here, and forever:
John 3:13 **And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man *which is in heaven./*B]

2.The waverers are so illogical! If the Guardian’s ministry was without the Universal House of Justice, then the House of Justice can be without the Guardian. Yet, why are all his words consulted on every matter? He will always be our Guardian.Together they go forward toward the World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, and many will enter the Arc/Ark and many won’t.

1. People love what came of Abraham, the Father of the Faithful, because they realize it was part of the Covenant of God (something some hearts are unable to grasp tightly).
   The twelve tribes came from Isaac and Jacob, the twelve Imams from one of the twelve sons of Ismael, and the Everlasting Father from one of the sons of Katurah, as well as Rahab bin Pinchas, who wed Cyrus, and bore Sasan, the progenitor of the line of kings from which Bahá’u’lláh is descended. Many, many things are learned from each one of Bahá’u’lláh’s terse, laconic, and incisive verses; and the relevant verse in the Kitab-i-Aqdas is no exception:
   Beware that ye take not unto yourselves more wives than two. Whoso contenteth himself with a single partner from among the maidservants of God, both he and she shall live in tranquillity.
   Again the Covenant of God comes thru one of the sons of the Manifestation of God, and monogamy really begins with Him. How shameful to denigrate and betray the Beloved!**

 

[planten]

** Not only did Bahaullah have two wives but his son Abdul Baha also had two wives. I as a Muslim do not object to that. But as stated by one friend above, if their guardian could only be a physical son of the previous guardian, and Shogi Effendi was not any son at all, how come he became a guardian? Also he did not have any male survivng issue. So the system collapses due to its own rules.

I have asked another question in my previous post. Let us hope what reply they give. So far they have given a dubious reply that Bahaullah and Bab were both Jesus. That could not be any good answer. It means that the Baha’is do not really know the real status of Bahaullah.

I also note dthat Bahaism is another shape of christianity like the JW’s and the mormons.

Also, I note that it is a form of the heretic group amongst Muslim Sufis who were called “Wahdat ul Wujood.”, i.e. Hamah oost. i.e. “He is everything”. i.e “God is everything and everything is God.”**

 

[arthra]

I would just reply along with David’s remarks above…

It’s true Baha’is believe Jesus resurrection was not a physical literal one. We believe it was spiirtual in nature and symbolic. If one would study I think the Transfiguration on the Mount and ask whether Moses and Elijah were supposed to have appeared literally and physically I think it would clarify this also we should allow for visionary experiences to expalin some of the events.

Regarding the Baha’i administration… Provisions were made in the Kitab-i-Aqdas revealed by Baha’u’llah in Akka around 1871 for the House of Justice and Abdul-Baha further detailed such an institution… Shoghi Effendi was the grandson of Abdul-Baha and was appointed Guardian in His Will and Testament.

Yes the Guardian Shoghi Effendi passed away without leaving a successor but we Baha’is accept that the Institution of the Guardian continues… that is, the interpretations and guidelines established by the Guardian continue… So the Uiversal House of Justice continues to defer to the Guardian and his institution continues.

Regarding the marriages of Baha’u’llah they were arranged while He was in Shiah Islam and later the Aqdas was revealed… Abdul-Baha through His interpretation of the Aqdas established that monogamy was the intention of the Aqdas and so Baha’is are monogamous.

Abdul-Baha had only one wife Munirih Khanum.

See:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munirih_Kh%C3%A1num

and see:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27Abdu%27l-Baha

Finally Baha’is do not claim to be Christians or Muslims and we are not Sufis and the doctrine of pantheism is repudiated in our Writings.

 

[planten]

I would just reply along with David’s remarks above…

It’s true Baha’is believe Jesus resurrection was not a physical literal one. We believe it was spiirtual in nature and symbolic…

arthra, please tell when this spiritual resuurection of Jesus took place?

Regarding the Baha’i administration… Provisions were made in the Kitab-i-Aqdas revealed by Baha’u’llah in Akka around 1871 for the House of Justice and Abdul-Baha further detailed such an institution… Shoghi Effendi was the grandson of Abdul-Baha and was appointed Guardian in His Will and Testament.

What was the name of the father of Shoghi Effendi? Was he the son of a son of Bahaullah, or he was the son of a daughter of Bahaullah. I mean Shoghi was a paternal grandson of Bahaullah or a maternal granson of Bahaullah?

Yes the Guardian Shoghi Effendi passed away without leaving a successor but we Baha’is accept that the Institution of the Guardian continues.

…

You mean Shougi died without leaving a son? Please tell.

Regarding the marriages of Baha’u’llah they were arranged while He was in Shiah Islam and later the Aqdas was revealed… Abdul-Baha through His interpretation of the Aqdas established that monogamy was the intention of the Aqdas and so Baha’is are monogamous.

Abdul-Baha had only one wife Munirih Khanum.

See:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munirih_Kh%C3%A1num

** I have seen the wikipedia about Munirih Khanum. Please see the words of Munirih who was the wife of Abdul baha. It appears that she did not leave any male child.

The couple married on March 8, 1873 in the house of Abbúd. Munírih Khánum was twenty-five, Abdu’l-Bahá was twenty-eight. The marriage was a happy one resulting in nine children (seven girls and two boys). Of these children only four survived infancy, all daughters**. Munírih Khánum was very emotionally attached to her children and devoted to her husband.

 

[DavidMark]

planten: remember i wrote this:

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Also, the church is the “body of CHrist”. That is how we see the resurrection, and it makes sense, since the Gospel supports it!

 

[NoWings]

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.!

This is one reason why both Islam and Baha’i grate on my nerves. Anything that can affirm your position is seen as valid and true, while other writings that go against your interpretation (such as Thomas’ Edification) are seen as corrupted or not interpreted correctly.

Use them all, or don’t use them.

 

[arthra]

To respond to Platen above…

Abdul-Baha had one wife and only daughters survived… He designated Shoghi Effendi to be the Guardian… The Guardianship was an Institution that was defined by Abdul-Baha in His Wil and Testament.

Also Shoghi Effendi was a descendent of both the Bab (His family the Afnan) and Baha’u’llah through Abdul-Baha:

Born in Akká](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/wiki/Acre,_Israel) in March 1897, Shoghi Effendi was related to the [Báb](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/wiki/B%C3%A1b) through his father, Mírzá Hádí Shírází, and to [Bahá'u'lláh](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27u%27ll%C3%A1h) through his mother, Ḍíyá'íyyih Khánum, the eldest daughter of [Abdu’l-Bahá.

Source:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoghi_Effendi

Also Shoghi Effendi had no children.

Hope that helps!

 

[arthra]

Also for those interested is an article on the spiritual resurrection of Jesus Christ which we Baha’is take to be spiritual in nature and symbolic:

bahai-library.com/uhj/resurrection.html

and

bahai-library.com/uhj/resurrection.bible.html

For Muslims we would also take the ascent of Prophet Muhammad to be a spiritual event and symbolic rather than literally or physically.

 

[planten]

planten: remember i wrote this:

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Also, the church is the “body of CHrist”. That is how we see the resurrection, and it makes sense, since the Gospel supports it!

**David, it is no use quoting bible verses to me. You know that we are discussing the resurrection of Jesus. You believe in spiritual resurrection of Jesus (i.e. not bodily resurrection.) I asked you people (Bahais) about the exact time when Jesus resurrection took place. Could you quote the time please. Was it before the crucifixion or was it after the crucifixion? Indicate exact time please.

Afterall, you people believe in the spiritual resurrection of Jesus. So tell me when was he resurrected? Thanks.
**.