"The Baha'i Faith"

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planten: You have a way of asking things that I have never seen before.
The souls of the Manifestations fo God are of another order than ours.
From their spiritual impetus and inspiration new civilizations are born.
You tell me when you think the soul leaves the body: is it just before death, at death,
or sometime after death? What else are we talking about?
I told everyone how Christ was always in heaven.They want to know about the body, and they don’t care to hear about “the body of the church” that arose after three days of feeling defeated (until Mary Magdalene rushed in and encouraged Peter and the others).
You don’t want to hear about Bible verses. Are you a Muslim? Do you revere the Báb & Bahá’u’lláh somewhat? What has the Quran told you about the resurrection of each person, and the Day of Resurrection?
In a sense, the resurrection of Jesus was the appearance of Muhammad, whosaid “I am Jesus” and whose Book judged the Book and the Period of the Christians, just as the appearance of Jesus was the Day of Resurrection for the Jews. So, you need to reflect deeply and try to understand how important it is when Baha’is speak of the Day of Resurrection for the Muslims, and all mankind!

Islam, at once the progenitor and persecutor of the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh, is, if we read aright the signs of the times, only beginning to sustain the impact of this invincible and triumphant Faith. We need only recall the nineteen hundred years of abject misery and dispersion which they, who only for the short space of three years persecuted the Son of God, have had to endure, and are still enduring. We may well ask ourselves, with mingled feelings of dread and awe, how severe must be the tribulations of those who, during no less than fifty years, have, “at every moment tormented with a fresh torment” Him Who is the Father, and who have, in addition, made His Herald – Himself a Manifestation of God – to quaff, in such tragic circumstances, the cup of martyrdom.
(Shoghi Effendi, The Promised Day is Come, p. 99)

Behold how the generality of mankind hath been endued with the capacity to hearken unto God’s most exalted Word – the Word upon which must depend the gathering together and spiritual resurrection of all men…
( Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 96)
 
Planten said: Also, I note that it is a form of the heretic group amongst Muslim Sufis who were called “Wahdat ul Wujood.”, i.e. Hamah oost. i.e. “He is everything”. i.e “God is everything and everything is God.”

This is absolutely false. It is repeatedly stated in the Baha’i Writings that there is a sign of God in everything, placed there by the Maker of all things, but there is a definite distinction between the Creator and the created things. They will always remain the creation, and He will always remain the Creator.

The Theosophists and the Sufis are divided into two branches: one, comprising the mass, who, simply in the spirit of imitation, believe pantheism without comprehending the meaning of their renowned savants; for the mass of the Sufis believe that the signification of Being is general existence, taken substantively, which is comprehended by the reason and the intelligence – that is to say, that man comprehends it. Instead of that, this general existence is one of the accidents which penetrate the reality of beings, and the qualities of beings are the essence. This accidental existence, which is dependent on beings, is like other properties of things which depend on them. It is an accident among accidents, and certainly that which is the essence is superior to that which is the accident. For the essence is the origin, and the accident is the consequence; the essence is dependent on itself, and the accident is dependent on something else – that is to say, it needs an essence upon which to depend. In this case, God would be the consequence of the creature. He would have need of it, and it would be independent of Him.(Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 292)
 
DavidMark:

Firstly, you KNOW that Baha’is do NOT believe in the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ. You have clearly stated this yourself. And yet, the Bible clearly states that His resurrection WAS PHYSICAL (Acts 1), and that human beings MUST believe in the physical resurrection or they are still dead in their sins (1 Cor 15). Both of these passages come from Holy Scripture canonized by the early Christian church, and are recognized by ALL Christian churches.

So DON’T tell me that the Baha’i Faith is compatible with Christianity when this most BASIC of requirements is NOT met.

Secondly, you KNOW that the Will of Abdu’l Baha CLEARLY stated that the Guardian was to govern TOGETHER with the Universal House of Justice, that they were to CONSULT with one another and VOTE on matters TOGETHER. So DO NOT regurgitate this mumbo jumbo about the Guardian governing BEFORE the UHJ, and the UHJ governing AFTER the Guardian. That’s NOT what Abdu’l Baha meant and in your heart of hearts you KNOW it.

Thirdly, if Baha’u’llah was who he claimed to be, he really ought to have known that taking TWO wives was a mistake. He even later admitted this in the “Most Holy Book” as you have quoted. Are you REALLY going to try and tell me that he didn’t know he was the Promised One until he was imprisoned in the Black Pit? Sounds to me like his claim was simply the act of a desperate man, nothing more.

Jesus, on the other hand KNEW who He was before He was even born. So did His Blessed Mother. Furthermore, Jesus was PERFECT and NEVER made a mistake of any kind… because He WAS God. When you finally accept this, you too will be a TRUE Christian, and no longer a Baha’i. The two are mutually exclusive. I will pray for you.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." - John 14:6/B:thumbsup:
 
To AngloCatholic, and all mankind:
I tell you honestly, your opposition is like “heady wine” to me. Bring it on. The Center of the Covenant is for me. You try to interpret the will of the Master and don’t even believe Him, what a sideshow!
You have misunderstood and allowed interpretations and veils to obscure your vision to such an extent that your blindness is how you’ll be remembered.
"…Imperishable glory I have chosen for thee, yet boundless shame thou hast chosen for thyself. While there is yet time, return, and lose not thy chance."
(Baha’u’llah, The Persian Hidden Words)

There were 50 gospels in the beginning and they did not all use the elaborate symbology of a Master that could be felt (not by modern people) by those early Christians. You give ME a break. Why can’t the Omnipotent Lord let ME touch His tortured flank, like Thomas and be edified thereby? I don’t need it! I already love Him. Jesus is the first to tell you: We are walking together in this new creation. No, I don’t know what you know ‘in my heart of hearts’ and I’m glad I don’t. Lord have mercy and preserve me from these doubters! This is the Baha’i chamber on this blog, and you expect us to fold? You better arm yourself with all your petty instruments, and get ready. This confrontation with the Lord of Hosts and His merest Word, will never succeed.

He that married not (Jesus Christ) could find no place wherein to abide, nor where to lay His head, by reason of what the hands of the treacherous had wrought. His holiness consisted not in the things ye have believed and imagined, but rather in the things which belong unto Us. Ask, that ye may be made aware of His station which hath been exalted above the vain imaginings of all the peoples of the earth. Blessed are they that understand.(Baha’u’llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 49)

Furthermore, a time will come when the entire, great, belabored and archaic structure of the church of Rome will be “swept away and relegated to the limbo of obsolescent and forgotten doctrines” ( and YOU know it in YOUR heart of hearts) Boom.

The call of Bahá’u’lláh is primarily directed against all forms of provincialism, all insularities and prejudices. If long-cherished ideals and time-honored institutions, if certain social assumptions and religious formulae have ceased to promote the welfare of the generality of mankind, if they no longer minister to the needs of a continually evolving humanity, let them be swept away and relegated to the limbo of obsolescent and forgotten doctrines. Why should these, in a world subject to the immutable law of change and decay, be exempt from the deterioration that must needs overtake every human institution? For legal standards, political and economic theories are solely designed to safeguard the interests of humanity as a whole, and not humanity to be crucified for the preservation of the integrity of any particular law or doctrine.
(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha’u’llah, p. 42)

You and your twisted version of retreat and spite will be, and already are being, replaced by legions and legions of clear-eyed believers from the ranks of the Catholics throughout the world, from the Americas and Asia and Africa and Europe and America, through affliction and dreams and visions and blessing. They will cease to presume to tell God how to interpret His own epic and bow down ‘with their faces to the ground’.

These souls are the armies of God and the conquerors of the East and the West. Should one of them turn his face toward some direction and summon the people to the Kingdom of God, all the ideal forces and lordly confirmations will rush to his support and reinforcement. He will behold all the doors open and all the strong fortifications and impregnable castles razed to the ground. Singly and alone he will attack the armies of the world, defeat the right and left wings of the hosts of all the countries, break through the lines of the legions of all the nations and carry his attack to the very center of the powers of the earth. This is the meaning of the Hosts of God.(Abdu’l-Baha, Tablets of the Divine Plan, p. 424)

To me, the ‘center of the powers of the earth’ is St. Peter’s Basilica itself, and not even in its heyday, but far down the track of history, after countless episodes of worldliness and superstition. (May God tenderly gather His loved ones from every direction.)

And maybe I’m not the best representative for this gradual and inevitable victory, but I have confidence in my love for this King of Kings and this Covenant, and this is none other than the same unapproachable Lord Who spoke from Sinai. Ah me! I will pray for YOU! May God reverse your course once again, so you will not end up to be another ahriman (evil one) preventing the growth of the Faith, like the arch-enemies in Iran, predicted long-ago as the scene of the last battle between light and darkness:

Say: The Ahrimans are lurking in ambush: be ye aware and deliver yourselves from every darkness through the light of the name of the discerning One. Have ye regard for the world, and not for yourselves. Ahrimans are such souls as intervene and interpose between men and exaltation and loftiness in their positions. In this day, it is incumbent and obligatory upon all to adhere to that which is conducive to the progress and elevation of the just government and people. In every one of the Verses, the Supreme Pen hath opened doors of love and union. We have said – and Our saying is truth –
“Consort with all the people of religions with joy and fragrance.” Through this utterance, whatever was the cause of foreignness, discord and disunion has been removed.
(Baha’u’llah, Lawh-i-Dunya (an earlier translation) Baha’i World Faith, p. 174)

I don’t mean to appear mean, to spank and admonish. It is not my place. But get a hold of yourself, or be left in the wake. Your opportunity is, even now, drawing away from you, until you and the other obstructionists flailing with you will recede in the distance, and mankind’s attention will be centered on the captain of this new Ark. Ya Bahá’ul-Abhá!
 
Dear David (the Bahai), you have replied:
From david:
planten: You have a way of asking things that I have never seen before.
The souls of the Manifestations fo God are of another order than ours.
From their spiritual impetus and inspiration new civilizations are born.
You tell me when you think the soul leaves the body: is it just before death, at death,
or sometime after death? What else are we talking about?
I told everyone how Christ was always in heaven.They want to know about the body, and they don’t care to hear about “the body of the church”
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**I am sorry if I asked you difficult questions. Please note that it is not to put you in trouble. You are preaching the Baha’i faith here and you had said that the resurrection of Jesus was spiritual and not physical. That may be right. I did not challenge it.

But i was interested in knowing when this resurrection took place.

The Muslims do not believe in physical resurrection because they do not believe that Jesus died on the Cross. he just fainted on the cross and later recovered (came to senses). Since Jesus did not die, there is no need of any resurrection.

The christians believe that Jesus actually died on the cross. He was put in a tomb and after three days he became alive. They call that resurrection.

Now I wanted to know from your Bahai teaching, what actually happened to Jesus on the cross and after the cross. If he had died, did he come to life after few days? Is that resurrection. I want to know exactly when Jesus resurrected. Please tell in plain words and do not give any more reading material.

If you do not know / do not understand the Bahai point of view about the resurrection of Jesus then tell me plainly. Thanks.**
 
I think if you’ll check I posted a few articles above on the Baha’i belief of the spiritual resurrection of Jesus Christ so please review the articles if you would like to explore more in depth …

Frankly whether you accept the Baha’i teachings or not is your business. But I feel I owe the whoever reads these posts to set the record straight as much I can so at least you have a correct perspective…

Baha’is believe that Resurrection should be understood spiritually rather than literally… So we accept that Jesus died physically on the cross and was martyred but His Spirit…could not be “killed”. Resurrection can also be seen as someone who is spiritually dead has been “reborn”.

“The Baha’is believe what is in the Bible to be true in substance. This does not mean that every word recorded in that Book is to be taken literally…”

Consider though that there were visionary experiences of the disciples that could account for some of these “resurrection stories” and then be passed down…

Would you agree that Moses and Elijah were materially present on the Mount of Transfiguration mentioned in the 17th chapter of Matthew or was it a spiritual experience. Peter wanted to build tabernacles over them.

Was the experience of the Transfiguration on the Mount mentioned in Matthew 17 a spiritual experience? Even though Peter wanted to build a tent over Moses, Elijah and Jesus it was meant to be spiritual in nature.

One of the difficulties I see with believing in a physical literal resurrection of Jesus is that there’s no scientific support for it… So when Jesus died on the cross…His body is resurrected within three days… The body appears and reappears to various people over forty days through locked doors and eats fish and so on or so and then what?

It has to ascend through the heavens on a cloud…but wait!

It then sits on the right hand of the Father in heaven until it’s ready to descend in the clouds again and then according to some good Christians they’re bodies are raptured into the air to meet the Lord leaving their speeding cars and airplanes to crash into whatever when they leave the earth…

When you accept a literal, physical view of the resurrection problems occur…

Abdul-Baha indicated that the after the death of Christ on the cross the disciples were downcast and depressed…and later they restored their hope and belief that the Gospel teachings…His Message would continue…

“Therefore, we say that the meaning of Christ’s resurrection is as follows: the disciples were troubled and agitated after the martyrdom of Christ. The Reality of Christ, which signifies His teachings, His bounties, His perfections and His spiritual power, was hidden and concealed for two or three days after His martyrdom, and was not resplendent and manifest. No, rather it was lost, for the believers were few in number and were troubled and agitated. The Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body; and when after three days the disciples became assured and steadfast, and began to serve the Cause of Christ, and resolved to spread the divine teachings, putting His counsels into practice, and arising to serve Him, the Reality of Christ became resplendent and His bounty appeared; His religion found life; His teachings and His admonitions became evident and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it.”

Source:

bahai-library.com/writing…ha/saq/23.html

also the church of believers is often referred to as the Body of Christ so the resurrection could also refer to the spiritual resurrection of the early Christian community, i.e., the Cause of Christ.

If you were to be in your “spiritual” body how would you know the difference between it and your physical body…?

As i pointed out before there is also the issue of a spiritual experience … You have a visionary experience which seems “real” to you. The late Gospels and even the Gnostic writers report these. Is a visionary experience any less real to you than a physical one… Consider the Transformation on the Mount… or go back earlier to the visions of Ezekiel.

Paul says something very interesting in his Second Letter to the Corinthians Chapter 12:

“I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago–whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows–such a man was caught up to the third heaven. And I know how such a man–whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows.”

Prophet Muhammad was supposed to have ascended to heavens and some believe this literally it’s called the Night Journey…others believe it was a visionary experience and physically He didn’t ascend…so this literal-spiritual issue is not restricted to Christianity.
 
planten my friend:
The reason you are difficult is that it has all been explained…but doesn’t seem to register.
Both the Christians and Muslims have a mutated view of the Crucifixion.

Jesus did die on the cross, and the resurrection of His spirit, which is the spirit of life for the body of His church, happened after a few days, with the realization by His followers that He would continue to empower their faith and their works.That’s the way it was. Whoever accepts it, fine…whoever does not, fine. Let the Lord sort them out.

You know all the Messengers of God speak Truth, and they are all “muslim”. In this sense, Prophet Muhammad was the return of Jesus, like a phoenix rising from the ashes.

But, the Muslims have developed an erroneous interpretation of the verse, because it says “They did not kill Him, but one like Him”. I have heard all kinds of versions about what this means; and you know the divine Ayats/Verses are not put together lightly, but designed to test mankind; and there are few tests to mankind than this subject.
As before, I say I believe that they did not kill the eternal, pre-existent Christ-spirit. No one ever can! It is Everlasting Life itself and is deathless forever.

The body is not. I would not be surprized if archeologists find the blessed bones of the Nazarene in Jerusalem someday; they certainly are searching the area very thoroughy!

Now, imagine how Bahá’ís feel when we reflect upon the martyrdom of Siyyid-i-Báb Sahib. It required two attempts to execute him by a regiment of 750 musketeers. Jesus did not come down off the cross alive; but the Báb somehow evaded the bullets aimed at HIm.
This is not a proof of the truth of His Revelation…His verses are.

Jesus’ body (See the movie The Passion of the Christ) was put in the tomb of Joseph of Aramathea, but it did not walk out. That is all a way of describing that He would continue to be with us. Obviously, His body did not remain with us, or you would have everyone wanting to feel his wounds, like poor Thomas. Zounds!

But the Báb told Sam Khan, the sympathetic Christian commander of the regiment, and the jailer, that no one could stop His Mission until it was finished. After the first attempt, when the substantial smoke cleared, his companion, Anís Zunuzí, was seen standing unhurt below the spike in the wall, where they had been hung up by ropes. Tens of thousands of spectators on the rooves of the houses surrounding thebarracks square were witness to this.

The Báb was found back in His cell, finishing His conversation with Siyyid Husayn, His secretary. The jailer resigned his post; and Sam Khan refused to carry out the order, and ordered his Armenian regiment to leave the square, regardless of the consequences to his own safety. Another regiment, a Muslim one, had to be brought in to get this Siyyid killed right! It was not intended that the Christian regiment carry the burden of the odious travesty. Wait for thousands of years for your Mahdí Messiah, and stand up and the mention of His Name, then kill Him with hideous and fiendish glee. (?)

This is the way of human leaders.
When the Báb and Anís were again suspended, He called out to the crowds:
"Had you believed in Me, O wayward generation, every one of you would have followed the example of this youth, who stood in rank above most of you, and willingly would have sacrificed himself in My path. The day will come when you will have recognized Me; that day I shall have ceased to be with you."(The Dawn-Breakers, p. 514)

After sixty years, the precious remains were brought to Mount Carmel and interred in the Shrine built and intended for them. See the Shrine at this link:
media.bahai.org/subjects/locations/holy_places_hai/terraces/7227/details
 
In response to the post by AngloCatholic above:

if Baha’u’llah was who he claimed to be, he really ought to have known that taking TWO wives was a mistake. He even later admitted this in the “Most Holy Book” as you have quoted. Are you REALLY going to try and tell me that he didn’t know he was the Promised One until he was imprisoned in the Black Pit? Sounds to me like his claim was simply the act of a desperate man, nothing more.

I would respond with a few comments… Baha’u’llah as a Manifestation of God knew Who He was before the imprisonment in the Siyyah Chal in 1853 according to Baha’i belief… He was born 1817 in a Shiah Muslim culture and so marriages were contracted by families… His behaviour was impeccable in that context and met ever standard. Marriages were contracted by families for social and business reasons and not by “lust”.

The Kitab-i-Aqdas was revealed around 1871 and Abdul-Baha later interpreted what the verses meant with regard to the number of wives…

Baha’is don’t believe Jesus married… We believe He was driven from place to place and was poor… Had He married however it would not change our esteem for Him in the least… Had He two wives it would not change our esteem for Him.

It seems to me quite contradictory that a society as we have today where many marriages last under two years there can be people who are critical of a society where there can be more than one wife.

For general information:

Baha’i marriage requires the consent of all living parents of the prospective spouses and when these conditions are met the Assembly or Baha’i Institution selects two witnesses who must witness the statement from each that they will abide by the Will of God… this done and all civil requirements are met the couple is married…
 
i want people to try to understand this most important issue. Baha’is are not watering down anything. This is our belief. Attack it if you want, but it is not going to change.

Question. – What is the meaning of Christ’s resurrection after three days?
Answer. – **The resurrections of the Divine Manifestations are not of the body.
All Their states, Their conditions, Their acts, the things They have established,
Their teachings, Their expressions, Their parables and Their instructions have a spiritual and divine signification, and have no connection with material things.

For example, there is the subject of Christ’s coming from heaven: it is clearly stated in many places in the Gospel that the Son of man came from heaven, He is in heaven, and He will go to heaven. So in chapter 6, verse 38, of the Gospel of John it is written: “For I came down from heaven”;

and also in verse 42 we find: “And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?”
Also in John, chapter 3, verse 13: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

Observe that it is said, “The Son of man is in heaven,” while at that time Christ was on earth. Notice also that it is said that Christ came from heaven, though He came from the womb of Mary, and His body was born of Mary.

It is clear, then, that when it is said that the Son of man is come from heaven, this has not an outward but an inward signification; it is a spiritual, not a material, fact.
The meaning is that though, apparently, Christ was born from the womb of Mary, in reality He came from heaven, from the center of the Sun of Reality, from the Divine World, and the Spiritual Kingdom.

And as it has become evident that Christ came from the spiritual heaven of the Divine Kingdom, therefore, His disappearance under the earth for three days has an inner signification and is not an outward fact.

In the same way, His resurrection from the interior of the earth is also symbolical;
it is a spiritual and divine fact, and not material;

and likewise His ascension to heaven is a spiritual and not material ascension.**(Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 102-3)
 
**arthra, thanks for the reply. David has also replied. I will see to that later. First i take up what youhave said:
arthra:
Baha’is believe that Resurrection should be understood spiritually rather than literally… So we accept that Jesus died physically on the cross and was martyred but His Spirit…could not be “killed”. Resurrection can also be seen as someone who is spiritually dead has been “reborn”.
Click to expand...
“The Baha’is believe what is in the Bible to be true in substance. This does not mean that every word recorded in that Book is to be taken literally…”
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**

Okay, we take resurrection as spiritual and not physically or literally. You accept that Jesus died physically on the cross and was martyred. That is exactly the belief of the christians. okay.

Then you say that his spirit could not be killed. This is not understood. We believe that the soul never dies. Only the body dies.

The worst statement from you is as follows: Resurrection can also be seen as someone who is spiritually dead has been “reborn”.

Since according to you, Jesus did not die spiritually, how can there be any Resurrection of Jesus of any kind?? You say that resurrection is only of the spirit. Since the spirit of Jesus did not die then why there should be any resurrection??? So you do not believe in the resurrection of Jesus.

Then you say:

“The Baha’is believe what is in the Bible to be true in substance. This does not mean that every word recorded in that Book is to be taken literally…”

That is another good statement. You believe in the bible in some way but not every word literally. That is good. That means you do not believe that Jesus was really the son of God. You do not believe that Jesus had a Father God. It was only a love statement of Jesus.
 
David, you have written:
In the same way, His resurrection from the interior of the earth is also symbolical;
it is a spiritual and divine fact, and not material;
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and likewise His ascension to heaven is a spiritual and not material ascension.(Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 102-3)
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**David, again you have given a long lecture about resurrection of Jesus. It appears that you do not know the answer. When did the resurrection of Jesus take place?? An important question which you are avoiding constantly.

Also, you people say that resurrection is only spiritual. Also you say that Jesus did not die spiritually. Only he died physically. When Jesus did not die spiritually (His spirit did not die) then there should be no resurrection for Jesus. What do you say about it please??? You should be denying the resurrection of Jesus.

So you do not believe that there was any bodily resurrection of Jesus. The body died. But how did it become alive again and Jesus walked about and met his friends.???

It is uite confusing. The body of Jesus died. Spirit did not die. The resurrection is only spiritual, not physical. So how did Jesus get up when he had died? And he met many of his friends and walked about on earth. Was it not the resurrection of the body??

Also I am thankful that you have admitted (through writings of Abdul Baha) that the body of Jesus did not go to heavens. Only his spirit ascended to heavens. Thanks a lot David.

**
 
planten: What do you mean when we say ‘the spirit of Jesus could not be killed’, and you say it is not understood? Please tell.
 
DavidMark,

If I may be so bold, I think I can answer for planten. What he means is quite simple:

On the one hand, you Baha’is say that the spirit of Jesus could not be killed. On the other hand you also INSIST that His resurrection was ONLY spiritual!

That’s a non sequitur. It doesn’t add up. It makes no sense, because if His spirit cannot be killed in the first place then there can be NO SPIRITUAL RESURRECTION!

That’s what planten meant by “it is not understood”.

So then, was His spirit killed and then resurrected (in which case you owe us both an apology)… or was his PHYSICAL BODY killed and then resurrected (in which case you owe us a Christian conversion!)🙂

Which is it mate?:confused:
 
For Muslims there is a verse in Qur’an that explains I think how Jesus crucifixion can be understood… It has to do with the concept of martyrdom…

Please refer to the verse in Surih Baqara Ayat 154 where it says:

“And say not of those who are slain in the Way of Allah: ‘They are dead’. Nay, they are living , though ye perceive (it) not.”

Jesus would not run away from HIs own martyrdom… nor would He allow anyone to be substituted for Him… as a sacrifice and martyr He accepted the will of His Father. Yes this view is closer to that supported by the Gospels…

"…most Muslims maintain that Jesus was not crucified, but one who looked like Him was instead, based on their understanding of Qur’án 4:156. Shoghi Effendi, however, states that the Qur’ánic passage indicates that the spiritual reality of Christ was beyond crucifixion, not that His body escaped such a fate

(Lights of Guidance, 1646, 1652, 1669); this resolves an apparent contradiction between Islam and Christianity. "

Abdul-Baha though also commented on the Qur’anic verse saying the the Spirit of Christ could not be crucified and that those who crucified Him were hoping they had killed His Cause… The disciples later rallied and understood that the martrydom of Jesus was not the end and that the Cause of Christ was “resurrected” spiritually:

“We do not believe that there was a bodily resurrection after the Crucifixion of Christ, but that there was a time after His Ascension when His disciples perceived spiritually His true greatness and realized He was eternal in being. This is what has been reported symbolically in the New Testament and been misunderstood. His eating with His disciples after resurrection is the same thing.”

9 October 1947 to an individual believer
 
AngloCatholic1 said:
DavidMark,

If I may be so bold, I think I can answer for planten. …]

On the one hand, you Baha’is say that the spirit of Jesus could not be killed. On the other hand you also INSIST that His resurrection was ONLY spiritual!

That’s a non sequitur. It doesn’t add up. It makes no sense, because if His spirit cannot be killed in the first place then there can be NO SPIRITUAL RESURRECTION! …]

So then, was His spirit killed and then resurrected (in which case you owe us both an apology)… or was his PHYSICAL BODY killed and then resurrected (in which case you owe us a Christian conversion!)🙂
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I am David House, a Bahá’í. This is my first post on the forum, and there is a good deal which I have not read in this thread, so forgive me if there is something that I have misunderstood, did not realize, etc.

Allow me, that understood, to venture an answer.

Any deeply spiritual matter is bound to be profound, and I would tend to mistrust anyone who asserts with passion that they have the correct understanding. It would be a bit like claiming to have God within one’s grasp; an obvious impossibility.

All I can do, then, is to offer, within my own limitations of heart and mind, an understanding that is bound to be incomplete if not incorrect.

My reading of Scripture is that the body of Christ died. I think this is pretty clear from the Gospels. However, surely every event in the life of the Lord of Mankind must have taken place not because He was subject to any of the ordinary limits which afflict any of us, mere humans, but rather must have had a reason growing out of His mission to mankind. To the One who created all things (c.f. John 1:3), and Who came and suffered for the sole purpose of our salvation, surely any event in His life must have unfolded they way it did entirely to insure that His purpose would be fulfilled.

Indeed, I would go so far as to submit that the highest purpose of the lives and story of those who followed Him would, likewise, be to further His mission and purpose. These events, in other words, can be taken as an illustration of the lessons which God has for us, not only a morality tale, but as well a kind of living explanation of certain deeper truths. Why would Christ raise Lazarus from the dead, given that he most certainly died subsequently? It was (my opinion) a direct, visible illustration of a clear spiritual truth.

So: As I read Colossians 1:24, it seems pretty clear that spiritually speaking, the body of Christ was the church itself, i.e. at the time of His crucifixion, that precious group of a few souls who believed in His truth. It seems clear likewise that, in spite of His many statements to them, preparing them for the fact that He would suffer that fate, the event was nevertheless devastating to them, and (again I say, only as I read and understand it) these few precious souls, in their enormous grief and confusion, lost their faith.

Some may differ from my thought on that, but for my part the truth of that statement is shown in the several places where those who loved Christ, who watched Him preach, who gave every earthly thing they had to follow Him, did not recognize Him when they first saw Him following the resurrection. I think if I had had the astonishing privilege of being near Him for an instant, much less for years, walking with Him through extreme difficulty and transcendent joy, I would far easier not recognize my own face than fail to recognize His. Surely they would have all been magnetized by Him, devoted to Him. Yet, following His crucifixion, we find repeated instances where those who were close and dear to Him looked at Him, but did not see Christ. Why?

For me the spiritual truth of it was that they were, for a few hours or days, in the condition of the rest of mankind, who also looked at someone they could see, but they did not see that He was Christ. Surely, in other words, we can only see Christ if we look with the eyes of faith, no?

Thus Mary Magdalene (John 20:14) and two of his disciples (Luke 24:16), and indeed the eleven (as Luke 24:37 appears to imply) did not know Him when they looked at Him. They could not see Christ.

Of course they quickly regained their faith, conquering their own fears and doubts as well as a large fraction of mankind, or we would not be talking here and now.

The point is, however, that for a time, a few days at most, where all of those who followed Him found themselves lost, uncertain, bereft-- which are not characteristics of the faithful-- the church, the body of His believers, had died. When that faith was regained, His body, the church, was reborn, resurrected.

This is my understanding.

d.
 
arthra said:
For Muslims there is a verse in Qur’an that explains I think how Jesus crucifixion can be understood… It has to do with the concept of martyrdom…

Please refer to the verse in Surih Baqara Ayat 154 where it says:

“And say not of those who are slain in the Way of Allah: ‘They are dead’. Nay, they are living , though ye perceive (it) not.”

Jesus would not run away from HIs own martyrdom… nor would He allow anyone to be substituted for Him… as a sacrifice and martyr He accepted the will of His Father. Yes this view is closer to that supported by the Gospels…

"…most Muslims maintain that Jesus was not crucified, but one who looked like Him was instead, based on their understanding of Qur’án 4:156. Shoghi Effendi, however, states that the Qur’ánic passage indicates that the spiritual reality of Christ was beyond crucifixion, not that His body escaped such a fate

(Lights of Guidance, 1646, 1652, 1669); this resolves an apparent contradiction between Islam and Christianity. "

Abdul-Baha though also commented on the Qur’anic verse saying the the Spirit of Christ could not be crucified and that those who crucified Him were hoping they had killed His Cause… The disciples later rallied and understood that the martrydom of Jesus was not the end and that the Cause of Christ was “resurrected” spiritually:

“We do not believe that there was a bodily resurrection after the Crucifixion of Christ, but that there was a time after His Ascension when His disciples perceived spiritually His true greatness and realized He was eternal in being. This is what has been reported symbolically in the New Testament and been misunderstood. His eating with His disciples after resurrection is the same thing.”

9 October 1947 to an individual believer
Click to expand...
** arthra, you are wandering here and there without any useful result. I thought I had made my point clear in all my posts. I was asking “When did resurrection of Jesus take place?”

You have not come around to that question. Instead you are discussing the contradictions in Muslim and christians point of views.

To complicate the matters further, you people have said that resurrection is that of the spirit. And the people could not kill the spirit of Jesus. So when the spirit of Jesus never died, then why there should be any need of his resurrection??.

That is all according to your own statements.

At the end of your post, you have given a date as 09 October 1947. Should I take that as the date of the resurrection of Jesus? Please tell. You said 9 October 1947 to an individual believer.** What does that mean??
 
We were told earlier by AngloCatholic that anyone who does not believe in the resurrection of the body is still in sin. And his authority to say this was 1 Corinthians 15:17

But if we read this important chapter completely, it becomes apparent that what was resurrected was not physical, but a spiritual body.
15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

I personally know that excursions in visions and dreams is with a spiritual body, while my physical one is inert. This brings to mind a verse from the Qur’án:

**God taketh souls unto Himself at death; and during their sleep those who do not die: and he retaineth those on which he hath passed a decree of death, but sendeth the others back till a time that is fixed. Herein are signs for the reflecting. **Sura 39:42

So, planten, when Jesus’ body is dead, and the world does not yet believe His spiritual claims, what is immediately left but the spiritual body and the mantle of authority it was clothed with before, during and after a life on earth?

And if th Maker of all things wished, He could manifest other divine Men who occupy or emphasize other stations besides the Son. To me the miracle of the Baha’i Revelation is that the Everlasting Father was actually the father of the Center of the Covenant, and this is as miraculous as making a Lawgiver out of a murderer, or a mother out of a virgin.
 
Platen wrote:

“At the end of your post, you have given a date as 09 October 1947. Should I take that as the date of the resurrection of Jesus? Please tell. You said 9 October 1947 to an individual believer. What does that mean??”

That refers to the time the letter was written by the Guardian Shoghi Effendi to the individual believer. Shoghi Effendi and His Grandfather Abdul-Baha had authority to explain things for the Baha’is.

You might consider the definition of the word “resurrection”…

a revival from inactivity and disuse; “it produced a resurrection of hope”

This has very much to do in mind with the restoration of hope and optimism that the disciples received after the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus.

Abdul-Baha also explains:

The resurrections of the Divine Manifestations are not of the body. All their states, their conditions, their acts, the things they have established, their teachings, their their expressions, their parables, and their instructions have a spiritual and divine signification, and have no connection with material things.

(Some Answered Questions, old ed., p.119)

Resurrection can also refer in our view to the resurrection of a former religion…

For example, from the inception of the mission of Jesus - may peace be upon Him - till the day of His ascension was the resurrection of Moses. For during that period the Revelation of God shown forth through the appearance word punished by His word everyone who did not believe; inasmuch as God’s testimony for that Day was that which He solemnly affirmed in the Gospel.
  • Selections From the Writings of the Bab, passage on pp.106-8
and for the believers recognizing and conforming to God’s Will:

True resurrection from the sepulcres means to be quickened in conformity with His Will, through the power of His utterance.
  • Selections From the Writings of the Bab, p.158
 
David House,

Welcome to the Forum and thanks for your well written post! 😉
  • Art
 
DavidMark;

Once again you have completely ignored the question that was put to you. First you say that Christ didn’t die spiritually, and then you say His resurrection was only spiritual. Non sequitur! Whenever Baha’is are asked SIMPLE questions, they always answer with voluminous discourses of mind-bending illogic. Why can’t you just believe exactly what the Bible says, and what ALL Christians have preached for almost 2000 years… a PHYSICAL resurrection of the BODY?

Also, your interpretation of 1 Cor 15 as referring to a spiritual (and therefore NOT a physical) resurrection is without merit. Clearly, the Apostle Paul is addressing those who fail (as you do) to believe in a PHYSICAL resurrection. That’s why he makes reference in verse 29 to those few who are actually baptizing their dead ancestors:

“Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?” - 1 Cor 15:29

No, this is not an endorsement of Mormonism, but simply a reference to point out that the RESURRECTION is to raise those who have PHYSICALLY died, at which time they will be clothed with NEW INCORRUPTIBLE BODIES. And THAT by the way is what Paul is referring to when he says that our present, corruptible bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom. You pointed this out in verse 50, but you failed to reveal the verses immediately following:

“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?” - 1 Cor 15:51-55

PHYSICAL resurrection wasn’t invented by the Christian church; it was (and still is) the belief of the ancient Hebrews (and modern-day Jews). That’s why, when Jesus told Martha that her brother Lazarus would be raised again, the dialgue went like this:

“Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” - John 11:23-24

Obviously Martha hadn’t been talking to Abdu’l-Baha! 😉 So the Bahai view of there being NO PHYSICAL resurrection not only runs contrary to 2000 years of Christian teaching (the Church that Jesus Christ founded!), but is ALSO contrary to 6000 years of Jewish teaching prior to that!

Your Baha’i teachings, however interesting they may seem to some people, are NOT compatible with the Holy Bible.
 
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