"The Baha'i Faith"

[arthra]

The understanding of two thousand years ago is not how we understand things today and I would just suggest that rather than defer to hide bound tradition there are those who can apply the teachings in a spiritual and symbolic way rather than in a literal physical way… and this approach is also our perspective on the Qur’an (see below).

When in Malachi 4:5 reads:

“Behold I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes…”

When people suspected the scripture meant John the Baptist it was in spirit not that Elijah literally and physically returned…

Matthew 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

We Baha’is acknowledge this spiritual perspective rather than a physical literalist approach.

Abdul-Baha refers to this:

And by this Spirit is the life of the spirit of man, when it is fortified thereby, as Christ saith: “That which is born of the Spirit is Spirit.” And this Spirit hath both restitution and return, inasmuch as it consists of the Light of God and the unconditioned grace. So, having regard to this state and station, Christ announced that John the Baptist was Elias, who was to come before Christ.

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith, p. 371

and

Jesus Christ, speaking of John the Baptist, declared he was Elias. When John the Baptist was questioned, “Art thou Elias?” he said, “I am not.” These two statements are apparently contradictory, but in reality they do not contradict. The light is one light. The light which illumined this lamp last night is illuminating it tonight. This does not mean that the identical rays of light have reappeared but the virtues of illumination. The light which revealed itself through the glass reveals itself again so that we can say the light of this evening is the light of last evening relighted. This is as regards its virtues and not as regards its former identity.

~ Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 167

On spiritual interpretation see:

It is evident that no vital results are now forthcoming from the customs, institutions and standpoints of the past. In view of this, shall blind imitations of ancestral forms and theological interpretations continue to guide and control the religious life and spiritual development of humanity today?

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith, p. 225

“Concerning the resurrection of Christ, he wishes to call your attention to the fact that in this as well as in practically all the so-called miraculous events recorded in the Gospel we should, as Bahá’ís, seek to find a spiritual meaning and to entirely discard the physical interpretation attached to them by many of the Christian sects. The resurrection of Christ was, indeed, not physical but essentially spiritual, and is symbolic of the truth that the reality of man is to be found not in his physical constitution, but in his soul. A careful perusal of the Íqán’ and of the ‘Some Answered Questions’ makes this indubitably clear.”

(From a letter written to an individual believer on behalf of the Guardian, August 14, 1934)
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 492)

The Spiritual interpretation of the Qur’án, which had become obscured in the superficial reading; the rescue of it, so to speak, from the strictly literal, which they held to be stultifying to souls and minds of the people, veiling the Truth from them. “The letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth Life.”

~ Lady Blomfield, The Chosen Highway, p. 11

 

[planten]

**arthra and davidMark, you are both using very high level words and phrases without any real clear meaning. So far you have taught that Bahaullah was a prophet as well as a God.

That the resurrection of Jesus was only spiritual. He did not resurrect bodily.

John the baptist was Elijah, meaning John the baptist had come in the spirit of Elijah. He was in fact the promised Elijah. He was not the real Elijah who had gone up into heavens.That is believed by all the christians and Muslims. So you are not teaching anything new in that.

It would be good to give some answer from yourself about whatever is asked. If you understand the answer yourself then there is no need to serve us with long paragraphs of Shogie and Ibnul Baha (Abdul Baha)'s writing to us. We do not understand them. It would be better to tell us about the claim of Bahaullah. What did he claim to be? Was he a new prophet? Was he the promised Masiha (jesus second coming)? Was he the Elijah? Was he the Imam Mahdi? was he the God almighty? Please tell.

And also tell when excatly the (Spiritual) resurrection of Jesus took place? Thanks.

I may make a list of the questions. Please reply directly:

1. What was the claim of Bahaullah in his own words?
2. Did he ever say that there was no God except him who was in jail?
3. Did Bahullah recieve Wahi from God?
4. Did he proclaim his Wahi openly to the people?
5. Was Bahaullah the Imam Mahdi?
6. Was he the second coming of Jesus? i.e. the promised Masiha a.s.??
7. Was he the God almighty?
8. Did Bahaullah say that he was a prophet / messenger of God?
9. Did Bahaullah say that he was God?
10. Did bahaullah say that he was not God?

Please answer questions according to numbers so that we become familiar with the personality of Bahaullh. At this moment, there is no need to give reasons and no need to prove anything. Just give the short replies please.

**

 

[DavidMark]

1. What was the claim of Bahaullah in his own words? Yes
2. Did he ever say that there was no God except him who was in jail? Yes
3. Did Bahullah recieve Wahi from God? What is Wahi?
4. Did he proclaim his Wahi openly to the people?
5. Was Bahaullah the Imam Mahdi? No, the Bab was Mahdi & Qa’im
6. Was he the second coming of Jesus? i.e. the promised Masiha a.s.?? Yes, so is the Bab. They are the Twin Trumpet Blasts that are one blast.
7. Was he the God almighty? Yes & No. I won’t attempt this mystery again.
8. Did Bahaullah say that he was a prophet / messenger of God? Yes and more
9. Did Bahaullah say that he was God? **Yes, HOVALLAH! **
10. Did bahaullah say that he was not God? Yes. He was just a man.

 

[DavidMark]

**Is it not enough for them that we have sent down to thee the Book to be recited to them? In this verily is a mercy and a warning to those who believe.**Qur’an 29:50

The Verses of Bahá’u’lláh are proof enough for me. The manner in which they came down, the extent, the rapidity, the eloquence, the subject matter, the form, the power are all great. And a person who is informed of a new Revelation must seek them out himself.
He is responsible for getting the information directly, and not relying on anyone else.

**Ye seek to prove your faith in God through such holy Tablets as ye possess, yet when the verses of God were revealed and His Lamp was lighted, ye disbelieved in Him Whose very Pen hath fixed the destinies of all things in the Preserved Tablet. Ye recite the sacred verses and yet repudiate Him Who is their Source and Revealer. Thus hath God blinded your eyes in requital for your deeds, would ye but understand. Day and night ye transcribe the verses of God, and yet ye remain shut out, as by a veil, from Him Who hath revealed them. **(Bahá’u’lláh, Suriy-i-Haykal, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 6)

 

[arthra]

“Wahi” is Arabic for revelation from God…

Here are the words of Baha’u’llah:

Thereupon the voice of the true Faith was lifted up, calling aloud again and again and saying: “O concourse of the earth! By God! I am the true Faith of God amongst you. Beware that ye deny Me not. God hath manifested Me with a light that hath encompassed all that are in the heavens and all that are on earth. Judge ye equitably, O people, My manifestation, and the revelation of My glory, and the radiance of My light, and be not of them that act unjustly.”

~ Baha’u’llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 96

“O King! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow. The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely. This is but a leaf which the winds of the will of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Praised, have stirred. Can it be still when the tempestuous winds are blowing? Nay, by Him Who is the Lord of all Names and Attributes! They move it as they list. The evanescent is as nothing before Him Who is the Ever-Abiding. His all-compelling summons hath reached Me, and caused Me to speak His praise amidst all people. I was indeed as one dead when His behest was uttered. The hand of the will of thy Lord, the Compassionate, the Merciful, transformed Me.”

~ Baha’u’llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 11

Both the Bab and Baha’u’llah openly proclaimed Themselves…

The Bab proclaimed Himself during Haj (November 1844) in al-Mecca in front of the pilgrims at al-Hajar-ul-Aswad and He addressed Tablets to the Shah …

Baha’u’llah revealed Tablets (See:reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/SLH/)
to the rulers proclaiming Himself openly to the Shah, the Ottoman Sultan, the Tzar of Russia, Queen Victoria, the Pope, Kaiser Wilhelm, Napoleon III and many others… Also His principles and teachings are included for a world government and ways to build peace between religions.

 

[AngloCatholic1]

David Mark/Arthra/Any other Baha’is:

Please answer two questions that on my mind just now. This is your opportunity to proclaim your beliefs, but please keep your answers as short and concise as possible.

1) The Baha’i faith claims to be the fulfillment of the promises all religions. This list (I know for a fact) includes Buddism. Now the Buddha taught that the blessed state of perfection, or “Nirvana”, was to slowly and gradually achieved over the course of a number of lifetimes. That is, reincarnation is a CORE BELIEF of Buddhism.

On the other hand, the Judeo-Christian teaching, based upon the Holy Bible, has ALWAYS been that there is but ONE life to be lived on this earth: “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” - Hebrews 9:27
So, once again, the Baha’i teaching that all religions are ONE is FALSE. You cannot reconcile them without denying BASIC beliefs in each of them. To say on the one hand that “they are all one”, and on the other that some of their CORE BELIEFS are in error is a non sequitur! The Devil is the father of all lies (John8:44).

2) I am a baptized Christian and a member of the Roman Catholic Church. I acknowledge the Ten Commandments, The Beatitudes and the social teachings of Jesus Christ and the Church which He established on this Earth. I eat His flesh and drink His blood, that He may dwell in me and I in Him. I treat my neighbour as I treat myself, whether he/she be black, white, red or yellow. Last but not least, I recognize Jesus Christ as the one and ONLY Son of God, perfect, blameless and wholly without defect, sacrificed to atone for my sins (in fulfillment of the prophetic scriptures) and thus reconcilling me to God my Creator. My spiritual mission on this Earth is to make EVERYONE aware of Jesus Christ, the LOVE of God, and His One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Exactly WHAT, pray tell, am I to gain by casting all this away and following your prophet?

 

[NoWings]

Exactly WHAT, pray tell, am I to gain by casting all this away and following your prophet?

I’ve mentioned this before. If Baha’is are going to get into apologetics with apostolic Christianity then they’d better provide something substantial in the way of the Eucharist. One or two brief mentions by Baha’u’llah isn’t going to cut it, especially considering it’s been practiced since the apostles and before the Bible was ever assembled.

That, and there’s not really anything new in the Baha’i faith that isn’t represented in Christianity already. In fact, I’d go so far as to say Christianity has more meat than Baha’i. I can read the Beatitudes backwards and forwards, from memory. All I see from Baha’i writings is a bunch of flowery language with no real substance and what is substantial has already been covered previously.

 

[Siddhartha]

David Mark/Arthra/Any other Baha’is:

Please answer two questions that on my mind just now. This is your opportunity to proclaim your beliefs, but please keep your answers as short and concise as possible.

1) The Baha’i faith claims to be the fulfillment of the promises all religions. This list (I know for a fact) includes Buddism. Now the Buddha taught that the blessed state of perfection, or “Nirvana”, was to slowly and gradually achieved over the course of a number of lifetimes. That is, reincarnation is a CORE BELIEF of Buddhism.

On the other hand, the Judeo-Christian teaching, based upon the Holy Bible, has ALWAYS been that there is but ONE life to be lived on this earth: “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” - Hebrews 9:27
So, once again, the Baha’i teaching that all religions are ONE is FALSE. You cannot reconcile them without denying BASIC beliefs in each of them. To say on the one hand that “they are all one”, and on the other that some of their CORE BELIEFS are in error is a non sequitur! The Devil is the father of all lies (John8:44).

Buddhism doesn’t teach “reincarnation”. It teaches “rebirth”, which is a different teaching. Hinduism, however, does clearly teach reincarnation.

In any event, both reincarnation and non-reincarnation are accepted by many people on faith. No one can empirically and scientifically prove the truth of either position (which doesn’t mean that no one will personally experience the truth of either position, or that no one has personally experienced the truth of either position, but that’s another topic).

For Hindus, reincarnation doesn’t last forever. Either sooner or later, the individual communes with God, thus ending the reincarnation process. So, from a Hindu perspective, the numerous lifetimes that one lived through before the reincarnation process ended, can be viewed as “one” lifetime. So a Hindu could in fact agree with the idea that there is only one “life”.

Hasidic Jews, for instance, believe that reincarnation happens, as a way of allowing people further opportunities to draw closer and closer to God. When the reincarnation process ends, the person then communes with God. (The resurrection of the body then occurs at some point after the reincarnation process ends, I believe.) So Hasidic Jews could also argue that the numerous lifetimes before the reincarnation process ends, can be viewed as “one” lifetime.

So, “reincarnation” and “one-lifetime” can both be seen as true. They can be seen as different perspectives of the same reality.

As far as Baha’is are concerned, Bahai’s have reconciled reincarnation and one-lifetime in an interesting way. For Bahai’s, after you die, your soul continues to evolve in the spiritual worlds. However, the thoughts and feelings associated with Soul A while on earth, can be “gifted” to another soul, Soul B, who is newly born on earth. So Soul B has similar thoughts and feelings that Soul A had, but Soul A is continuing on its journey in the afterlife. Soul B is, then, in a sense, a “reincarnation” of Soul A. Soul B’s thoughts and feelings won’t be identical to that possessed by Soul A (since Soul B is a different soul, different person), but the basic similarities will be there.

So, religions that teach reincarnation are religions that emphasize the shared mental factors of Soul A and B, whereas religions that teach one-lifetime emphasize the different souls of Soul A and Soul B. Both positions are correct, but they come at the issue from different perspectives.

 

[arthra]

AngloCatholic wrote:

Please answer two questions that on my mind just now. This is your opportunity to proclaim your beliefs, but please keep your answers as short and concise as possible.

1) The Baha’i faith claims to be the fulfillment of the promises all religions. This list (I know for a fact) includes Buddism. Now the Buddha taught that the blessed state of perfection, or “Nirvana”, was to slowly and gradually achieved over the course of a number of lifetimes. That is, reincarnation is a CORE BELIEF of Buddhism.

On the other hand, the Judeo-Christian teaching, based upon the Holy Bible, has ALWAYS been that there is but ONE life to be lived on this earth: “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” - Hebrews 9:27
So, once again, the Baha’i teaching that all religions are ONE is FALSE. You cannot reconcile them without denying BASIC beliefs in each of them. To say on the one hand that “they are all one”, and on the other that some of their CORE BELIEFS are in error is a non sequitur! The Devil is the father of all lies (John8:44).

My reply to you:

Anglocatholic… It sounds like you have already made your conclusions rather than really inquering when you write:

“So, once again, the Baha’i teaching that all religions are ONE is FALSE.”

But I already responded to the issue of the teachings of Buddha some time ago on this thread… My own view is that the teaching of the Buddha was “via negativa” which means He would not subscribe to a view of God especially at the time He was teaching because there were many philosophies and He did not want to be aligned with any of the existing views… Today it would sound like agnosticism perhaps… but the Buddha would not align Himself with materialists or theists of HIs day.

Another concept of the Buddha’s teachings is called in Sanscrit “Anatma” and means He avoided affirming the existence of the Atman. This also I believe had a design behind it as the Buddha directed His teaching against the Brahmin priestly caste that would gain a lot from having special prayers and ceremonies for the deceased… He also opposed animal sacrifices which were practised since Vedic times… this was another practise that enriched the Brahmin priests… You’ll recall that the Lord Jesus also opposed the sacrificial system in the Temple of Jerusalem and drove oout the money changers and released the animals being held for sacrifice around the Temple.

That there are differences in teachings of the great Manifestations is I believe due to the unique mission Each has … An elementary school teacher may be just as qualified as a secondary teacher but the teaching in the classroom will vary accordingly… So an approach to mathematics may be quite different for a third grader than for a junior in High School and so on. Spiritually the Manifestations are one They all have as Their Goal the spiritual upliftment of mankind as we progress and develope.

Anglo catholic wrote:

2) I am a baptized Christian and a member of the Roman Catholic Church. I acknowledge the Ten Commandments, The Beatitudes and the social teachings of Jesus Christ and the Church which He established on this Earth. I eat His flesh and drink His blood, that He may dwell in me and I in Him. I treat my neighbour as I treat myself, whether he/she be black, white, red or yellow. Last but not least, I recognize Jesus Christ as the one and ONLY Son of God, perfect, blameless and wholly without defect, sacrificed to atone for my sins (in fulfillment of the prophetic scriptures) and thus reconcilling me to God my Creator. My spiritual mission on this Earth is to make EVERYONE aware of Jesus Christ, the LOVE of God, and His One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Exactly WHAT, pray tell, am I to gain by casting all this away and following your prophet?

My reply:

What you decide is of course your business… You know your own spiritual needs and all I can tell you is that becoming a Baha’i is a matter of searching and independent investigation.

I have met many Catholics who became Baha’i and one was a Roman Catholic priest who I see fairly often at our Center… He had theological training and seems knowledgeable about the Catholic church and I asked him how he decided to become a Baha’i. He told me that what convinced him more than anything was when he understood the life of Baha’u’llah, that He was imprisoned in the most extreme conditions of mid nineteenth century middle east or in exile most all of His life and in these circumstances was able to survive and proclaim His message to the world.

For me as a Christian it was recognizing I did not have to give up Jesus Christ to become a Baha’i and as you know most other religions you have to give up one or all the other great teachers and Manifestations. For me it was also the strong social teachings of the Faith to eliminate prejudice and establsih world peace.

Each of us is on a spiritual journey and I think we are obligated to align ourselves where at all possible with the Will of God and for me that meant become a Baha’i.

 

[DavidMark]

Thanks tor everyone answering for me. But I will answer AngloCatholic1:
We do not accept re-incarnation. It was an ancient and persistent myth that crept into many religions. Lord Buddha is greater than all of us put together, and deserves honor.
He de-emphasized the rampant polytheism of his day and promised the coming of the 5th Buddha Maitreya,Amit-ABHA, news of whom would come to India from the west.
If you look at his eight-fold path and four noble truths, they are at the core of every Faith.
Yet, Jesus and other Messengers have come since, and the Buddhists need to give up the idolotry of their splendid statuary and share what good they have with the rest us.

By whatever proof, measure or sign you accept the perfection of Jesus, who came in the station of the Son, so Baha’is accept the Blessed Perfection of the same pre-existent Logos, or Wisdom (Proverbs 3:19, 8:22 & 23 etc) In fact, this feminine Wisdom came to Bahá’u’lláh, or arose in His heart, just as the symbolic visions of Burning Bush, Dove and Gabriel came before. The Son’s is the not the last revelation. Praise God we have lived to see the dawning of this Kingdom of the Everlasting Father, promised by Isaiah, the Lord of the Vineyard, who comes after the Son and heir is killed to establish justice, and the purpose of justice is unity and the improvement of mankind. So when you say ONLY Son, we agree, that ONLY pre-existent Light is reflected in a new Mirror, or as the Moon when it is full, not partial, and this IS the return you told people about before, and then retracted.
“All have fallen short of the Glory of God” “If you had known Moses, you would have known Me” can be said again by the Báb & Bahá’u’lláh.

NoWings et all: Enjoy your Eucharist, but remember Jesus said “Do this…until He comes”. (1 Corinthians 11:25-6) The Nineteen Day Feast is the Lord’s Supper in this age.

 

[DavidMark]

When I read a Baha’i book that said Jesus had been a dyer by trade, I thought hmm?
But when an ancient scroll verified it, I shouted Hurray, WOW!

**Jesus was a dyer by trade. He also lived in Egypt. ‘Out of Egypt have I called My Son’ **(Matt. 2:15; Hos.11:1) was spoken of Jesus. The 5th Gospel which is considered non-canonical gave other history of Jesus than is contained in the Gospels of the New Testament. There were fifty gospels, but only four were accepted as genuine by the priesthood. (‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Ten Days in the Light of ‘Akká, Grundy, p. 9)

**“God is a dyer. As the good dyes, which are called ‘true,’ dissolve with the things dyed in them, so it is with those whom God has dyed. Since dyes are immortal, they become immortal by means of his colors. Now God dips what he dips in water…The lord went into the dye works of Levi. He took seventy-two different colors and threw them into the vat. He took them out all white. And he said, ‘Even so has the son of man come [as] a dyer.” **(Gospel of Philip, Nag Hammadi Library, J. M. Robinson, Ed., p. 146 & 148)

Now, we can understand a reference such as Revelation. 19:13 **And He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and His name is called The Word of God. **

 

[DavidMark]

**The Christ is the central point of the Holy Spirit: He is born of the Holy Spirit; He is raised up by the Holy Spirit; He is the descendant of the Holy Spirit – that is to say, that the Reality of Christ does not descend from Adam; no, it is born of the Holy Spirit. **Therefore, this verse in Corinthians, “As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive,” means, according to this terminology, that Adam is the father of man – that is to say, He is the cause of the physical life of mankind; His was the physical fatherhood. He is a living soul, but He is not the giver of spiritual life, whereas Christ is the cause of the spiritual life of man, and with regard to the spirit, His was the spiritual fatherhood. Adam is a living soul; Christ is a quickening spirit. (‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p. 118)

**In this age His Holiness Bahá’u’lláh hath breathed the Holy Spirit into the dead body of the world, consequently every weak soul is strengthened by these fresh Divine out-breathings --every poor man will become rich, every darkened soul will become illumined, every ignorant one will become wise, because the confirmations of the Holy Spirit are descending in torrents. ** (‘Abdu’l-Bahá, SW, vol.5, p. 1)

Man cannot free himself from the rage of carnal passions except by the help of the Holy Spirit. That is why He says baptism with the spirit, with water and with fire is necessary (see Matt. 3:11-12),
–that is to say, the spirit of divine bounty, the water of knowledge and life, and the fire of the love of God…Otherwise, what is the use of baptizing with material water? No, this baptism with water was a symbol of repentance, and of seeking forgiveness of sins. But in the cycle of Bahá’u’lláh there is no longer need of this symbol; for its reality, which is to be baptized with the spirit and love of God, is understood and established. (’Abdu’l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p. 92)

**If thou art wishing for the confirmation of the Holy Spirit, become thou engaged in teaching the Cause of God. **(Tablets of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, v3, p. 557)

 

[DavidHouse]

DavidMark;

Once again you have completely ignored the question that was put to you. First you say that Christ didn’t die spiritually, and then you say His resurrection was only spiritual. Non sequitur! Whenever Baha’is are asked SIMPLE questions, they always answer with voluminous discourses of mind-bending illogic. …]

Your Baha’i teachings, however interesting they may seem to some people, are NOT compatible with the Holy Bible.

This is David House again: AngloCatholic, I responded to you, without voluminous discourses, and absent illogic, demonstrating, within my limits and restricting myself to Scripture and logic, how it is that one of the meanings of the resurrection is found in the fact that the early believers lost their faith, then regained it; at which point the body of Christ, the church, was reborn.

I would appreciate knowing your thought about my analysis of Scripture.

I might also add that it is clear to every believer that physical things, literal things, are without value as compared with spiritual things. My own body is of value to me, but if I were somehow to be placed in the situation where I would have to choose between life on this earth and my belief in God, then clearly I would have to choose the latter, since my physical life has meaning only to the degree that it assists my soul to develop in faith, truth, beauty and other virtues or “names” of God.

What is clear to a mature believer is of course what was created, embedded in the reality of all things, by Christ, the Word of God and the Creator of heaven and earth. As such, Christ would have placed no importance in physical things. Had He found them of any value, then no power in earth or heaven could have prevented Him from living in a palace with all the wealth of the earth at His command. By contrast, He lived the life of one who was poor, homeless, destitute and unable apparently to feed His own disciples, who were then at least sometimes obliged to find their own meals (Luke 6:1, Mark 2:23, Matthew 12:1). What is also clear, however, that the incident or incidents reported served a spiritual purpose, which in part in this case was to demonstrate that Christ was the Lord of the Sabbath.

As I previously said, every moment in the life of Christ must of a certainty have had the shape it had in order to fulfill His purpose, since He could have changed the very laws of nature, and was not subject to any circumstance. Every atom which He encountered, He knew, for He had created it.

Should we insist, then, that the actual physical body of Christ was reborn we introduce many problems, the first of which is that (as least as far as I can understand) it would serve no clear purpose. Our own spirit or soul is not restricted to our body, its temporary home. And most assuredly the Spirit of Christ was not restricted to His body, and it is clear that His power is far greater in the spiritual realm than in the physical realm; for He can proclaim to anyone from within their own heart, but to only a few from within His own body.

But, nevertheless, accepting for the sake of argument that His physical body was resurrected, why would that have been the case? What deep spiritual lesson would have been illustrated by that event? What Scriptural reference regarding that purpose can you share with me? Where is the body now? And do forgive me for asking by way of illustration, but what clothing is it wearing? (And again forgive me, but does it need to be fed?) If that body is indeed physical, then it must age and die. On the other hand, if it has not aged nor died, then what in your view has been the spiritual purpose of Christ keeping and sustaining a body for which He has no need, apparently hidden somewhere (some physical place, mind you)?

All these questions, and many more, arise following the assertion that Christ’s physical corpus was resurrected. But we allowed, indeed one may say encouraged, to apply the tests of logic to our faith: “Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.” (Isaiah 1:18)

Again and finally, do forgive me for even approaching what might be interpreted as questions that are impertinent. It is not my purpose to ridicule and I ask forgiveness therefore if the questions have any appearance thereof. My point was and remains that while we can interpret Scripture in many ways, it would generally make more sense to interpret it in ways that do not violate logic, where there are alternatives, well supported by reference to other passages, which satisfy both mind and heart.

d.

 

[AngloCatholic1]

David House/David Mark/Siddhartha/arthra:

Thanks for taking the time to explain the Baha’i position. I appreciate your sincerity, your faith and devotion to your cause.

However, that being said, I just can’t swallow some of the reasoning. Siddhartha says that Buddhists don’t believe in “reincarnation”, but rather “rebirth”. I don’t want to argue semantics, but they ceratinly mean the SAME thing to me. Also, saying that all the lives taken together make just “one” life… sorry, but my logic centres can’t handle it. This is what I mean by convoluted Baha’i reasoning. I feel like I’m watching a stage magician, and then told what I am witnessing is TRUE! (The Church’s teaching on Transubstantiation is not nearly so demanding!)

Lastly, I suppose it’s all a matter of comfort. I can FEEL the love of God in a decorated Catholic church, much more so than I can sitting in someone else’s basement. I would rather taste, touch and feel God (through partaking of the Blessed Sacrament, kneeling in prayer and the singing of Hymns) rather than listen to hours of intellectual discourse. But maybe that’s just me. There’s nothing Bahaism offers that my Caholic faith hasn’t already embraced for centuries. World Peace? Jesus and His followers did not resort to violence to defend the cause of God, as the Babis did. My God of Peace and Love practiced what He preached. The Catholic Just War Theory provides the perfect model, it’s just too bad fallen mankind has been unable to practice it fully (at least not yet). Any world peace theory advanced by Baha’u’llah will demand equal effort.

One of you tried to explain that the spiritual personalities of those who have already died can be shared with those who are still alive on this earth. Hadn’t heard this Baha’i understanding before, but I do fellowship with the Christian Saints and the Blessed Virgin Mary. Who else do I need?

And with that, I bid you all a kind farewell. God bless.

 

[Siddhartha]

David House/David Mark/Siddhartha/arthra:

Thanks for taking the time to explain the Baha’i position. I appreciate your sincerity, your faith and devotion to your cause.

Actually, I’m Catholic.

…
One of you [Siddhartha] tried to explain that the spiritual personalities of those who have already died can be shared with those who are still alive on this earth. Hadn’t heard this Baha’i understanding before…

Abdul’Baha was the one who talked about this issue. I’ll put in bold and italicize the key phrases:

Though the fact of “Return” is mentioned in the Divine Books, by this is intended the return of the qualities, characters, perfections, truths and lights, which re-appear in every age, and not of certain persons and souls. For example: If we say this lamp is the return of that of last night, or that the last year’s flower hath returned in the garden, in this sense the return of the individual, or identity, or personality is not meant; nay, rather, it is intended that the same qualities and states existing in that lamp or flower, which are now seen in this lamp or flower, have returned. That is, the same perfections and virtues and properties which existed in the past springtime have returned during this present springtime. For instance: When one says, these fruits are the same as those of last year; in this sense, he hath reference to the freshness and delicacy of the fruit, which hath returned, although there is no doubt that the identical fruit of last year hath not returned.

The part in italics is really interesting, because the analogy of the lamp is pretty much exactly the analogy that the Buddhists use to describe “rebirth”. (This is why it’s important to know that the Buddha taught “rebirth” not “reincarnation”.) Buddhists use the analogy of the flame of a candle. If one take the flame from one candle and uses it to light a new candle, is the new flame different or the same as the old flame? Well, in some ways it’s the same, in some ways it’s different.

Likewise, from a Baha’i perspective, the souls of two people are different, but the qualities, characteristics, and tendencies of the two souls are very similar, causing people to say that “soul A was reincarnated as soul B”, when actually what “reincarnated” were the qualities, characteristics, and tendencies.

 

[DavidMark]

John the Baptist was the return of Elijah --not the individual soul, but the divine office, the same attributes and authority. The same with Jesus and Bahá’u’lláh.

 

[planten]

From post #251 of DavidHouse:
…
What is clear to a mature believer is of course what was created, embedded in the reality of all things, by Christ, the Word of God and the Creator of heaven and earth. As such, Christ would have placed no importance in physical things…
…

As I previously said, every moment in the life of Christ must of a certainty have had the shape it had in order to fulfill His purpose, since He could have changed the very laws of nature, and was not subject to any circumstance. Every atom which He encountered, He knew, for He had created it.

**The above is quite contrary to the Muslims beliefs. Muslim do not believe that Jesus was God or he created anything. Muslims believe that Jesus was himself created, So Baha’is are towing the christian faith faithfully.

You say "every atom which He (meaning Jesus) encountered, He knew, for He had created it. "**

Again same problem. You believe that Jesus created everything. Since Bahaullah is also God and Bahaullah is also Jesus, then Bahaullah must have created himself and everything.

Such things are not believed by Muslims and such things are considered Shirk i.e. paganism (Polytheism). That is the sin of the greatest order. What do you say?

 

[yankee_doodle]

I pray this email finds you all in good health.

I was wondering if anyone has had any encounters with a non-catholic religion called the “Baha’i Faith”? I am currently a student at a university and have encountered and dialogued with many different types of religions. This one in particular has given me a little more of a headache and is tougher to break down due to my lack of biblical and doctrinal knowledge within the Catholic Chruch. They claim to have 6.5 million members and say they have been growing fast. I was just wondering if anyone else has had encounters with this “Baha’i Faith” and if so how has it gone?

Paz de Christo,

Mateo

no more true than the mythology of the well established Abrahamic faiths, but at least they’re a more tolerant and less pretentious bunch.

 

[arthra]

God speaking through His Messengers however is not the Messenger being God… Once again God does not descend or incarnate Himself in our view hence we are not aligned with traditional Christian views of the incarnation.

Regarding reincarnation… The Buddhist doctrine also asks the question “What incarnates?” and holds the doctrine of “anatma”… Baha’i belief is that the soul is the mystery of God and cannot be quanitified or measured.

See:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatman

Though the fact of “Return” is mentioned in the Divine Books, by this is intended the return of the qualities, characters, perfections, truths and lights, which re-appear in every age, and not of certain persons and souls. For example: If we say this lamp is the return of that of last night, or that the last year’s flower hath returned in the garden, in this sense the return of the individual, or identity, or personality is not meant; nay, rather, it is intended that the same qualities and states existing in that lamp or flower, which are now seen in this lamp or flower, have returned. That is, the same perfections and virtues and properties which existed in the past springtime have returned during this present springtime. For instance: When one says, these fruits are the same as those of last year; in this sense, he hath reference to the freshness and delicacy of the fruit, which hath returned, although there is no doubt that the identical fruit of last year hath not returned.

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith, p. 392

Via negativa is also known as Netti Netti… Not so, not so See:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_negativa

Baha’i belief is that God is Unknowable except through His Manifestations:

All the people have formed a god in the world of thought, and that form of their own imagination they worship; when the fact is that the imagined form is finite and the human mind is infinite. Surely the infinite is greater than the finite, for imagination is accidental while the mind is essential; surely the essential is greater than the accidental.

Therefore consider: All the sects and peoples worship their own 382 thought; they create a god in their own minds and acknowledge him to be the creator of all things, when that form is a superstition – thus people adore and worship imagination.
That Essence of the Divine Entity and the Unseen of the unseen is holy above imagination and is beyond thought. Consciousness doth not reach It. Within the capacity of comprehension of a produced reality that Ancient Reality cannot be contained. It is a different world; from it there is no information; arrival thereat is impossible; attainment thereto is prohibited and inaccessible. This much is known: It exists and Its existence is certain and proven – but the condition is unknown.
*All the philosophers and the doctors knew that It is, but they were perplexed in the comprehension of Its existence and were at last discouraged, and in great despair they left this world. *

For the comprehension of the condition and mysteries of that Reality of realities and Mystery of mysteries there is need for another power and another sense. That power and sense is not possessed by mankind, therefore they have not found any information. For example: If a man possess the power of hearing, the power of tasting, the power of smelling and the power of feeling, but no power of seeing, he cannot see. Hence, through the powers and senses present in man the realization of the Unseen Reality, which is pure and holy above the reach of doubts, is impossible. Other powers are needed and other senses required. If those powers and senses are obtained, then information can be had; otherwise, not.

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith, p. 381

 

[arthra]

One comment Anglo Catholic made above that I would like to respond to:

“World Peace? Jesus and His followers did not resort to violence to defend the cause of God, as the Babis did. My God of Peace and Love practiced what He preached. The Catholic Just War Theory provides the perfect model, it’s just too bad fallen mankind has been unable to practice it fully (at least not yet). Any world peace theory advanced by Baha’u’llah will demand equal effort.”

I think your statement is an over simplification in that the Lord Jesus also asked His followers to obtain a sword. See the Gospel of Luke:

22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
22:38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.
22:39 And he came out, and went, as he was wont, to the mount of Olives; and his disciples also followed him.

…

The Babis were following what they understood to be the defence of their religion and having been Muslims understood the concept of Jihad struggling and defending their practise of religion.

Baha’u’llah abrogated “jihad” and so Baha’is cannot resort to the sword to defend their religion… Historically many Christians have rationalized the use of the sword just as have many Muslims.

It’s also true that as AngloCatholic states “Any world peace theory advanced by Baha’u’llah will demand equal effort.”

What Baha’u’llah advised the kings and rulers of His day was to convene a representative world parliament and an international court of arbitration to achieve peace and reduce armaments and this was around 1871… Had the advise been followed it is in my view that the great devastating world wars of the twentieth century would have been avoided. We’re still on the way though to achieving it.