"The Baha'i Faith"

[Siddhartha]

There is one doctrine that unites all Christians, Protestant, Anglican, Roman Catholic and Orthodox and that is the triune God, the Holy Trinity.

The Orthodox might disagree with you here: the filioque undermines a truly Triune understanding of God.

 

[jen_fla]

Muhammad was a Prophet of God, no doubt about it. The milieu he came in was not the same; a physician prescribes individually, and changes the prescription according to the changing condition. After Judaism and Christianity, the Arabian tribes were still immersed in polytheism, and had to be drastically “brought up to speed”. Their condition was similar to the Israelites in Moses’ time.
Your situation stops at Muhammad. But the Báb & Bahá’u’lláh had to prepare the nations for a system of Law that was universal and yet adaptable to the times. The Universal House of Justice cannot re-institute stoning, but it can decide on matters not specifically addressed, so there will be no personal interpretation by a class of qadis that no longer exist in the new community.

Christ set the universal law. it was at that point in time His message was to spread to all corners of the earth. to say it was ok for mohammed to reinstitute stoning is to say that the arabian pagans weren’t capable of learning Christ’s way. how is it many pagans 600 years before, up to and after mohammed’s time were able to get the message of compassion and follow the universal teaching of the Catholic Church?

As hard as it may be to accept, at this late date, whoever rejects the Qur’an has rejected Jesus, even if there are some apparent differences in teaching. The Qur’an defines “muslims” as those who followed the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and His followers. Likewise, for “muslims”, whoever rejected the Báb as Mahdí was leaving Islam, because to follow the Báb would have been to continue following true “islám”.
This Religion is indeed in the sight of God, the essence of the Faith of Muhammad…~The Báb, SWB p. 71
I swear by your Lord, this Book is verily the same Qur’án which was sent down in the past. ~The Báb, SWB p. 67

yes it is impossible for me to accept the words of yet another human being claiming he is a messenger of God when Holy scripture clearly tells us to reject those who come with new messages. those who accept the quran reject Jesus’ divinity. unless a devout Christian creates a split personality to accept mohammed’s words that Christ was only a prophet there is no way one can follow both paths. you can’t dismiss this gigantic hurdle with “even though there are some apparent differences.”

i have to run off again, but i will be back within a a few hours to respond to the rest.

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

The Orthodox might disagree with you here: the filioque undermines a truly Triune understanding of God.

The filioque not withstanding, the understanding of the triune God, remains a uniting hallmark of Christianity. You are correct that the Orthodox view has nuanced differences, but nonetheless, their view of the Trinity is so close to Western Christianity and so distant from concepts of God in other religions.

“[He was] a solemn, unsmiling, sanctimonious old iceberg who looked like he was waiting for a vacancy in the Trinity.” --Mark Twain

 

[soma]

2 Chronicles 36:15
The Fall of Jerusalem ] The LORD, the God of their fathers, sent word to them through his messengers again and again, because he had pity on his people and on his dwelling place.

2 Chronicles 36:16 (New International Version)
16 But they mocked God’s messengers, despised his words and scoffed at his prophets until the wrath of the LORD was aroused against his people and there was no remedy.

Job 1:16
While he was still speaking, another messenger came and said, “The fire of God fell from the sky and burned up the sheep and the servants, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!”

Walk with the Lord the strongest force and don’t be afraid. Catholic means universal so learn to grow closer to the Lord through different people and traditions.

 

[DavidMark]

I appreciate your spirit of reunion, Soma.
jen fla said: “yes it is impossible for me to accept the words of yet another human being claiming he is a messenger of God when Holy scripture clearly tells us to reject those who come with new messages.”

All are resurrected, “some to everlasting life, and some to everlasting contempt.”
So, don’t accept any new messages, jen fla. Many more will accept them.
I take it you think Bahá’u’lláh is a liar when He said "This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing."

He’s either a liar, a lunatic or the Lord. The Bible gave certain criteria for proving a divine message, and we should be careful, because if we mis-judge, we will be judged.

First Proof
When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously, you need not be afraid of Him. (Deut. 18:22) [The many prophecies made by Bahá’u’lláh can be studied elsewhere.]

Second Proof
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. (1 John 4:2 & 3 KJV) [The testimonies to Christ are as natural as Christ’s to Moses.]

Third Proof
**Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. **(Matthew 7:16-20) [So what are the fruits? Notice Jesus repeats that you SHALL know them by this test.]

 

[jen_fla]

In fact it was Judaism that advocated stoning for the adultress, and yet Jesus said, “let he who is without sin…” How to reconcile this?

i addressed that in my earlier post.

It is one God, and one religion of God, it does not stay the same, but neither is it totally made over with each new chapter. Jesus does not simply annul the law (“not a jot or title shall pass from the Law …”), rather he does something new, that puts the law in an entirely new light.

As for the Quran, it says “The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication – flog each of them with a hundred stripes: let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.” Here Muhammad takes the social practice of the time (which he believed went back ultimately to Abraham’s law) and gives it a new twist: the man is punished too, and as much as the woman.

However when the Meccan converts expressed their worries, having been idolaters and fornicators in the past, they were answered with a new revelation: “Except those who repent, believe, and do good” (Q 25.70). Which is not so different to the second part of the Jesus story: “go and sin no more.”

you are right about the penalty being flogging, but that is for couples having sex outside of marriage. if a man or woman who is married commits adultery then the punishment is death by stoning. sunni and shia nations still practice this today. the leaders of islam speak for islam today and they will not accept the baha’i interpretation of their religion.

But you asked what a Bahai could tell this woman, not what a Muslem or Christian or Jew could say. Baha’u’llah says:
*
"God hath imposed a fine on every adulterer and adulteress, to be paid to the House of Justice: nine mithqals of gold, to be doubled if they should repeat the offence. Such is the penalty which He Who is the Lord of Names hath assigned them in this world; and in the world to come He hath ordained for them a humiliating torment. Should anyone be afflicted by a sin, it behoveth him to repent thereof and return unto his Lord. He, verily, granteth forgiveness unto whomsoever He willeth,… "*

There is no court or judge in the Bahai system to impose a fine, and the House of Justice is not allowed to accept money from non-Bahais, so this ‘fine’ is a voluntary act of atonement. (Not of course a substitute for whatever remedy the guilty can offer to the victims of the sin.) The adulterer is not required to tell the House of Justice why he/she is making this particular payment.

This is a “penance”, but without the intervention of a priest. It recognises that “go and sin no more” is all very well, but usually – and especially if we are resolved to sin no more – our natural sense of justice requires that something, however symbolic, be laid in the scales by the sinner, opposite the sin, to keep the cosmic balance. For the justice of the next world, we may put our faith in vicarious atonement, but in this world the self-convicted sinner wants to at least contribute.

So what advice to give: advise her (the adultress) to read the Bahai scriptures and (if she is a Bahai) do what is required of her.

~ Sen

thank you very much for helping me to understand. for the bahai today they should offer up payment (voluntarily) for their sins. that is interesting. in the Catholic Church when one is sorry for their offenses and makes a contrite confession we believe God forgives us but the temporal effect of the sin is still felt. just as there are the laws of physics there are the laws of the spirit and the consequences of ones actions are real.

do you find it strange that mohammed who you claim was indeed a prophet of God said that he was the last prophet and also that if anyone left their religion for another they should be killed. i fear for the poor lives of the muslims who live under sharia law that would want to convert to yours.

i will now read the rest of the posts i missed, but i do have another question so hold tight!

 

[jen_fla]

I appreciate your spirit of reunion, Soma.
jen fla said: “yes it is impossible for me to accept the words of yet another human being claiming he is a messenger of God when Holy scripture clearly tells us to reject those who come with new messages.”

All are resurrected, “some to everlasting life, and some to everlasting contempt.”
So, don’t accept any new messages, jen fla. Many more will accept them.
I take it you think Bahá’u’lláh is a liar when He said "This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing."

He’s either a liar, a lunatic or the Lord. The Bible gave certain criteria for proving a divine message, and we should be careful, because if we mis-judge, we will be judged.

First Proof
When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously, you need not be afraid of Him. (Deut. 18:22) [The many prophecies made by Bahá’u’lláh can be studied elsewhere.]

Second Proof
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. (1 John 4:2 & 3 KJV) [The testimonies to Christ are as natural as Christ’s to Moses.]

Third Proof
**Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. **(Matthew 7:16-20) [So what are the fruits? Notice Jesus repeats that you SHALL know them by this test.]

1st proof. you have taken that from the OT. yes there were many prophets before Christ. they paved the way for His coming.

2nd proof. amen to that! if you also agree then clearly mohammed and anyone else that denies Christ’s divinity is NOT of God.

3rd proof. i don’t understand what you are saying here or how this is relevant. when one shows compassion and mercy towards the weak they are doing the Lord’s work. it is not for any of us to say or fully understand how Christ works in the hearts of all men.

forgive me for being blunt, but i do believe bahá’u’lláh was a liar or a lunatic. (see your 2nd proof). again, i have the utmost respect for your peaceful intentions, but i believe you have been deceived by the evil one. it all sounds like another conversations with God tape. beautiful, sweet, sweet Truth mixed in with some pertinent lies.

that same argument goes both ways.

our good Lord Jesus Christ was either God, a liar or a lunatic.
*
I and the Father are one.* John 10:30 also revisit your first proof

you even admitted earlier that God is not the mirror. as Catholics we too agree that the created is not the same as the Creator. yet your faith and the muslim faith clearly contradict 2000 year old Christian teaching that God IS Jesus.

and the Church that He founded has this in her Holy scriptures:

*6 I wonder that you are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ, unto another gospel. 7 Which is not another, only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. 9 As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema. 10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? If I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

11 For I give you to understand, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For neither did I receive it of man, nor did I learn it; but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. Galatians chp 1*

again, i see much that is wonderful in your beliefs, but as Catholics we simply cannot accept a new gospel.

i read that someone had mentioned joseph smith earlier. forgive me if you already answered this, but do you believe he is a manifestation of God?

do you believe haile selassie is also a manifestation of God?

i guess this last question will really help me see things better. what criteria must one meet in order to be considered a bona fide manifestation of God?

again, i hope my direct honesty and questioning isn’t upsetting. it’s merely data we all must look at to think things through.

peace,
jen

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

you are right about the penalty being flogging, but that is for couples having sex outside of marriage. if a man or woman who is married commits adultery then the punishment is death by stoning. sunni and shia nations still practice this today. the leaders of islam speak for islam today and they will not accept the baha’i interpretation of their religion.

But then you are comparing what the Gospels say Jesus said, with what Muslims do today. That’s not a proper comparison: you should compare the Quran with the Bible. Or compare the leaders of Islam today to the leaders of Christianity in the year 1400.

do you find it strange that mohammed who you claim was indeed a prophet of God said that he was the last prophet

He didn’t say he was the last prophet: he said he was the “seal” of the prophets. A seal is used for two purposes: to close something so it cannot be reopened (to keep it hidden), or to show that something that is open, is true and genuine. Which do you think is the likely meaning of “Muhammad is the seal of the prophets.”?

The word khatm has expanded in meaning. At the time of Muhammad it meant the seal on a signet ring. When the Quran was first written, there was no punctuation, but later signs were added: the one that marks the end of a verse looks like the impression of a signet ring, and it is called a khatm. From that, a metaphor developed: something not in writing, but in real life, that was seen an ending came to be called a khatm. Death is the khatm of life for example. But this is then centuries after the time of Muhammad.

 

[DavidMark]

For jen fla & all:
The oneness of the Prophets and the oneness of the Cause of God They taught is fundamental to Bahá’í, along with the oneness of God and the oneness of the human race. These teachings will not change. The entire human race can break themselves on this stone, and they will recede and it will not.

Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto…For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one being, one revelation. (Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 178)

Just as denial of Jesus by the Jews was denial of Moses, denial of Muhammad by Christians or others is denial of Christ. If we accept that Gabriel appeared to Daniel and the Virgin Mary, we should also accept that Gabriel gave the Qur’án in eloquent Arabic to Prophet Muhammad.
For it is evident that whoso hath failed to acknowledge the truth of the Qur’án hath in reality failed to acknowledge the truth of the preceding Scriptures. (Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 204)
It is especially important to realize the role of Muhammad in the Progressive Revelation of the Adamic Cycle.
**Every discerning observer will recognize that in the Dispensation of the Qur’án both the Book and the Cause of Jesus were confirmed. As to the matter of names, Muhammad, Himself, declared: “I am Jesus.” He recognized the truth of the signs, prophecies, and words of Jesus, and testified that they were all of God. In this sense, neither the person of Jesus nor His writings hath differed from that of Muhammad and of His holy Book, inasmuch as both have championed the Cause of God, uttered His praise, and revealed His commandments. **(Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 20)

In the same way, Bahá’u’lláh places His Revelation in the sequence of the previous ones:
Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity.(Bahá’u’lláh, Tablet of Ahmad)

**If we deny One of the Manifestations of God, we deny all. To inflict persecution upon One is to persecute the Others. **(‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 208)
**Why then should we deny Muhammad? If we deny Him, we awaken enmity and hatred. By our prejudice we become the cause of war and bloodshed, for prejudice was the cause of the tremendous storm which swept through human history for thirteen hundred years and still continues. Even now in the Balkans a commotion is apparent, reflecting it. **(‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 347)

When the Master uttered these lines, He was in America. It was 1912. No one had ever come to the West and championed the validity of Muhammad in the synagogues and temples as effectively as He had; which was odd, since the Caliph surely knew about the discovery of America, and could have sent missionaries. But in 1492, when Columbus asked Spain to provide ships, when Italy could not, the final defeat of the Moors had taken place and Granada taken, after nearly 700 years of conflict. Perhaps if the first Muslims to Spain had not been so militant, and lived as teachers and doctors, they would not have alienated the Christians, who were destined to become dominant in the New World. But in the world of today, and considering what kind of civilization must weld together the nations of planet Earth, it is time for us to gather in “the bosom of Abraham”, the Father of the faithful –and this is best done by turning to the collective Center of Bahá’u’lláh, the Everlasting Father. Picture what came from Abraham’s migration from Mesopotamia to Palestine, and you have a preview of what will come from Bahá’u’lláh’s exile from Baghdad to Akka.

 

[jen_fla]

But then you are comparing what the Gospels say Jesus said, with what Muslims do today. That’s not a proper comparison: you should compare the Quran with the Bible. Or compare the leaders of Islam today to the leaders of Christianity in the year 1400.

no that is an incorrect analogy. muslims have always followed ahadith as well. so you can’t say the stoning today is like a modern misinterpretation of islam for here it is stated:

Narrated Jabir bin Abdullah al—Ansari: A man from the tribe of Bani Aslam came to Allah’s Messenger [Muhammad] and informed him that he had committed illegal sexual intercourse; and he bore witness four times against himself. Allah’s Messenger ordered him to be stoned to death as he was a married person (Bukhari 8:6814; see also 8:6825; 8:6829)

it’s not like the cruelty we see in islamic nations was just brought into the modern world. they are following mohammed’s teachings, many of which are lost on the western world because they have not read through hadith and sunnah.

He didn’t say he was the last prophet: he said he was the “seal” of the prophets. A seal is used for two purposes: to close something so it cannot be reopened (to keep it hidden), or to show that something that is open, is true and genuine. Which do you think is the likely meaning of “Muhammad is the seal of the prophets.”?

The word khatm has expanded in meaning. At the time of Muhammad it meant the seal on a signet ring. When the Quran was first written, there was no punctuation, but later signs were added: the one that marks the end of a verse looks like the impression of a signet ring, and it is called a khatm. From that, a metaphor developed: something not in writing, but in real life, that was seen an ending came to be called a khatm. Death is the khatm of life for example. But this is then centuries after the time of Muhammad.

again that is a false interpretation given by a very modern faith. ask any muslim on here if their faith does or has ever left the door open for a new prophet to come along and change what mohammed taught. you can research all this for yourself online.

my friend, your heart is good, but i fear you have been sold bad information.

if you get the chance please listen to this small lecture on moral relativism.

peter kreeft is a philosophy professor from boston college and quite interesting. there a deep sigh of enjoyment when our brains can use sound reason to mesh with faith. this short lecture could very well open up another door for you

peace!

 

[jen_fla]

For jen fla & all:
The oneness of the Prophets and the oneness of the Cause of God They taught is fundamental to Bahá’í, along with the oneness of God and the oneness of the human race. These teachings will not change. The entire human race can break themselves on this stone, and they will recede and it will not.

Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto…For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one being, one revelation. (Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 178)

Just as denial of Jesus by the Jews was denial of Moses, denial of Muhammad by Christians or others is denial of Christ. If we accept that Gabriel appeared to Daniel and the Virgin Mary, we should also accept that Gabriel gave the Qur’án in eloquent Arabic to Prophet Muhammad.
For it is evident that whoso hath failed to acknowledge the truth of the Qur’án hath in reality failed to acknowledge the truth of the preceding Scriptures. (Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 204)
It is especially important to realize the role of Muhammad in the Progressive Revelation of the Adamic Cycle.
**Every discerning observer will recognize that in the Dispensation of the Qur’án both the Book and the Cause of Jesus were confirmed. As to the matter of names, Muhammad, Himself, declared: “I am Jesus.” He recognized the truth of the signs, prophecies, and words of Jesus, and testified that they were all of God. In this sense, neither the person of Jesus nor His writings hath differed from that of Muhammad and of His holy Book, inasmuch as both have championed the Cause of God, uttered His praise, and revealed His commandments. **(Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 20)

In the same way, Bahá’u’lláh places His Revelation in the sequence of the previous ones:
Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity.(Bahá’u’lláh, Tablet of Ahmad)

**If we deny One of the Manifestations of God, we deny all. To inflict persecution upon One is to persecute the Others. **(‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 208)
**Why then should we deny Muhammad? If we deny Him, we awaken enmity and hatred. By our prejudice we become the cause of war and bloodshed, for prejudice was the cause of the tremendous storm which swept through human history for thirteen hundred years and still continues. Even now in the Balkans a commotion is apparent, reflecting it. **(‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 347)

When the Master uttered these lines, He was in America. It was 1912. No one had ever come to the West and championed the validity of Muhammad in the synagogues and temples as effectively as He had; which was odd, since the Caliph surely knew about the discovery of America, and could have sent missionaries. But in 1492, when Columbus asked Spain to provide ships, when Italy could not, the final defeat of the Moors had taken place and Granada taken, after nearly 700 years of conflict. Perhaps if the first Muslims to Spain had not been so militant, and lived as teachers and doctors, they would not have alienated the Christians, who were destined to become dominant in the New World. But in the world of today, and considering what kind of civilization must weld together the nations of planet Earth, it is time for us to gather in “the bosom of Abraham”, the Father of the faithful –and this is best done by turning to the collective Center of Bahá’u’lláh, the Everlasting Father. Picture what came from Abraham’s migration from Mesopotamia to Palestine, and you have a preview of what will come from Bahá’u’lláh’s exile from Baghdad to Akka.

wow, i never saw anywhere where mohammed declared he was Jesus.

maybe i can start a new thread on that and ask the muslim community.

so if i am to understand i guess the baha’i see joseph smith and haile selassie as manifestations of God as well because if you denied them you would be showing prejudice and denying all the others.

… or did i get that wrong?

 

[jen_fla]

ok, my curiosity got the best of me.

i started a thread on whether mohammed actually said, “i am Jesus.”

you can find it here.

 

[arthra]

Jen,

It’s from a Hadith in the Shiah tradition… I think you have to acknowledge that there is more than one interpretation of Islam… The Baha’i perspective is different from the Sunni schools since the early Babis were mostly from Shiah Twelver Islam.

From the “Sermon of the Gulf” delivered by Imam Ali see the following:

• I am the Word of God [Kalimat’u’lláh] which hath been uttered in the world of creation, the Object of the covenant that hath been promised in the prayers and salutations which lie in the reality of all created things. I am the name that hath been invoked by orphans and by widows, the door to the city of knowledge and the refuge of patience and forbearance. I am the upraised flag of God, the companion of the banner of divine praise, the Lord of infinite bounty and of infinite grace. But should I tell you all that I am, you would doubtless disbelieve Me. For I am also the slayer of oppressors, the treasury of divine favours in this world and of the next. I am the master of the believers, the guide of those who seek the way. The truth is Mine and certitude is at My side. Leadership is Mine and the righteous shall follow Me. I am the first to acknowledge faith, the Cord of God that shall not be broken, the One who will raise the world to justice even as it hath been brought low by oppression. I am the companion of Gabriel and the archangel Michael is beside Me. I am the tree of guidance, and the essence of righteousness. I shall gather together the world of creation through the Word of God that gathers together all things. I give life unto humanity and I am the treasury of all divine commands. To Me hath been given the Luminous Pen and the Crimson Camel*…"

From:

• bahai-library.com/provisionals/tutunjiyyih.html

And it was revealed by Baha’u’llah:

*"Every discerning observer will recognize that in the Dispensation of the Qur’án both the Book and the Cause of Jesus were confirmed. As to the matter of names, Muhammad, Himself, declared: “I am Jesus.” He recognized the truth of the signs, prophecies, and words of Jesus, and testified that they were all of God. In this sense, neither the person of Jesus nor His writings hath differed from that of Muhammad and of His holy Book, inasmuch as both have *championed the Cause of God, uttered His praise, and revealed His commandments. Thus it is that Jesus, Himself, declared: “I go away and come again unto you.”

So it speaks to the identification of the Manifestaions of God in our view…
Jesus says: “I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.” The light here spoken of means the Light of His Perfection, mercy and goodness, love, holiness, truth, unworldliness, righteousness, purity, etc. “He that followeth me” that is, he that does as I do, and is characterized with these attributes, then he is not in the darkness.

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

… it’s not like the cruelty we see in islamic nations was just brought into the modern world. they are following mohammed’s teachings, many of which are lost on the western world because they have not read through hadith and sunnah. …

I have studied hadith and sunnah, and shariah and fiqh, etc. I wrote a book on Family Law in Iran. But I studied hadith using the western historical-critical method, not just taking anything Bukhari says as gospel (if you will excuse the expression). There was a large industry of hadith-production in the first 2 centuries of Islamic history, especially with respect to legal hadith. At first there were few hadith of Muhammad’s legal rulings, then more or and more, until they numbered hundreds of thousands. Muslims may believe they are following Muhammad’s teachings - that doesn’t mean that we can fairly compare their beliefs to the Jesus of the Gospels.

… ask any muslim on here if their faith does or has ever left the door open for a new prophet to come along and change what mohammed taught.

Or ask an orthodox Jew whether Jesus was the Messiah.

“The hand of God,” say the Jews, “is chained up.” Their own hands shall be chained up - and for that which they have said shall they be cursed. Nay! outstretched are both His hands! At His own pleasure does He bestow gifts.
(The Qur’an (Rodwell tr), Sura 5 - The Table)

 

[DavidMark]

Muhammad is the return of Jesus just as John the Baptist was the return of Elijah:
**For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John; and if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who is to come. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.**Matthew 11:11-15
It is not the individual, but the divine perfections that have re-appeared inthe same office and authority.
**“All the Prophets of God,” **asserts Bahá’u’lláh in the Kitáb-i-Íqán, "abide in the same tabernacle, soar in the same heaven, are seated upon the same throne, utter the same speech, and proclaim the same Faith."

Bahá’u’lláh was like Noah. Whoever comes into the Crimson Ark is saved.
Noah’s flood is but the measure of the tears I have shed, and Abraham’s fire an ebullition of My soul. Jacob’s grief is but a reflection of My sorrows, and Job’s afflictions a fraction of My calamity. (Bahá’u’lláh, Gems of Divine Mysteries, p. 65)
He was the return of Joseph. He interpreted dreams, was betrayed by His brother, came up out of the prison to take the reins of authority.
He was the return of the Burning Bush:
**The people of the world are now hearing that which Moses did hear, but they understand not.(**Tablets of Baha’u’llah, p. 265)
He said: (GWB 88)
He was the return of Imam Husayn, whose martyrdom was so crucial for the Shí’ih.
**How bitter the humiliations heaped upon Me, in a subsequent age, on the plain of Karbila! How lonely did I feel amidst Thy people! To what a state of helplessness I was reduced in that land! Unsatisfied with such indignities, My persecutors decapitated Me, and, carrying aloft My head from land to land paraded it before the gaze of the unbelieving multitude, and deposited it on the seats of the perverse and faithless. **(GWB 88)

This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it – verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures. (GWB 136)

 

[jen_fla]

Jen,

It’s from a Hadith in the Shiah tradition… I think you have to acknowledge that there is more than one interpretation of Islam… The Baha’i perspective is different from the Sunni schools since the early Babis were mostly from Shiah Twelver Islam.

no that is incorrect. it is from hadith from the sunni tradition and in addition Sahih Al-Bukhari is considered authentic by their imams. sunni about 85 - 90% muslim population. so yes i realize the shia have some differences but al-kafi and others that they regard as authentic ALSO say the married adulterer shall be stoned to death. both follow it and even today. why do you think amnesty international and other human right groups are upset about these stonings in iran (shia nation)?

From the “Sermon of the Gulf” delivered by Imam Ali see the following:

• I am the Word of God [Kalimat’u’lláh] which hath been uttered in the world of creation, the Object of the covenant that hath been promised in the prayers and salutations which lie in the reality of all created things. I am the name that hath been invoked by orphans and by widows, the door to the city of knowledge and the refuge of patience and forbearance. I am the upraised flag of God, the companion of the banner of divine praise, the Lord of infinite bounty and of infinite grace. But should I tell you all that I am, you would doubtless disbelieve Me. For I am also the slayer of oppressors, the treasury of divine favours in this world and of the next. I am the master of the believers, the guide of those who seek the way. The truth is Mine and certitude is at My side. Leadership is Mine and the righteous shall follow Me. I am the first to acknowledge faith, the Cord of God that shall not be broken, the One who will raise the world to justice even as it hath been brought low by oppression. I am the companion of Gabriel and the archangel Michael is beside Me. I am the tree of guidance, and the essence of righteousness. I shall gather together the world of creation through the Word of God that gathers together all things. I give life unto humanity and I am the treasury of all divine commands. To Me hath been given the Luminous Pen and the Crimson Camel*…"

From:

• bahai-library.com/provisionals/tutunjiyyih.html*

And it was revealed by Baha’u’llah:

*"Every discerning observer will recognize that in the Dispensation of the Qur’án both the Book and the Cause of Jesus were confirmed. As to the matter of names, Muhammad, Himself, declared: “I am Jesus.” He recognized the truth of the signs, prophecies, and words of Jesus, and testified that they were all of God. In this sense, neither the person of Jesus nor His writings hath differed from that of Muhammad and of His holy Book, inasmuch as both have *championed the Cause of God, uttered His praise, and revealed His commandments. Thus it is that Jesus, Himself, declared: “I go away and come again unto you.”

So it speaks to the identification of the Manifestaions of God in our view…
Jesus says: “I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.” The light here spoken of means the Light of His Perfection, mercy and goodness, love, holiness, truth, unworldliness, righteousness, purity, etc. “He that followeth me” that is, he that does as I do, and is characterized with these attributes, then he is not in the darkness.

i think it requires a bit of a stretch to tie all religions together as this one man has done. you can’t just look at portions of the islamic faith that jive with baha’i, but you have to focus on where they differ and why.

i would hope that you listened to the lecture i provided above about how the belief that morals are relative can’t hold water. i apologize for saying it was short. the first time i listened to it i was painting and time flew by. it has important data for you as it addresses some core concerns that skeptics of your faith will want addressed.

peace.

 

[jen_fla]

I have studied hadith and sunnah, and shariah and fiqh, etc. I wrote a book on Family Law in Iran. But I studied hadith using the western historical-critical method, not just taking anything Bukhari says as gospel (if you will excuse the expression). There was a large industry of hadith-production in the first 2 centuries of Islamic history, especially with respect to legal hadith. At first there were few hadith of Muhammad’s legal rulings, then more or and more, until they numbered hundreds of thousands. Muslims may believe they are following Muhammad’s teachings - that doesn’t mean that we can fairly compare their beliefs to the Jesus of the Gospels.

if you had studied both sunni and shia paths, then you would have known that it is OK for muslims to stone to death a married person committing adultery. i think the answer lies in that you used the western method. fly over to the middle east and ask the imams what they think about western ways corrupting their faith.

Or ask an orthodox Jew whether Jesus was the Messiah.

they would call Christians heretical, just as Christians and muslims find your faith heretical which is my whole point to begin with. wishing all these faiths to teach the same thing does not make it so.

ignoring the contradictions by claiming different strokes for different folks is illogical.

i really can’t add anything else to this discussion unless you provide a rational counter to professor kreeft’s lecture.

… well i suppose i could add an observation as to how it surely seems all these new religions take so much from the Catholic Church and act like they have discovered something new. all that i suppose is fine, but it’s when they leave out crucial information and contradict the rest that the toxicity sets in.

may the good Lord Jesus Christ open your hearts and minds to the one Truth.

peace.

 

[DavidMark]

No one ever said the religions teach the same thing, although there are ancient precedents. That’s why Bahá’u’lláh utters verses that take man in a new direction.
Consider other ways in which women were treated. It was worse for them before Muhammad!
Tahirih and Baha’u’llah were the same age (31) when he rescued her with the help of some others, and made sure she reached Badasht. She took off her veil in front of her fellow Bábís, and caused a commotion, but it was a signal that a new Dispensations with its’ own laws was coming --something new blowing in the wind.
jen fla: If you look at a particular law, you will not recognize the Law-Giver. The Arabs were not the same as others who became Christian at the time. They were hideously barbaric! Even with a cruel Idumean for a puupt-king of Rome, Israel was under the law of God. But the ignorant Arabs were polytheistic savages; and it is a proof of His prophethood that Muhammad was able to weld the tribes together, educate them, form them into a nation state, and destroy their idols.
Nevertheless, the Muslims are like Jews now, who have suspended their messiah before a hostile multitude.
Behold the absurdity of their saying; how far it hath strayed from the path of knowledge and understanding! Observe how in this day also, all these people have occupied themselves with such foolish absurdities. For over a thousand years they have been …unwittingly pronouncing their censure against the Jews, utterly unaware that they themselves, openly and privily, are voicing the sentiments and belief of the Jewish people!(Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 136)

 

[jen_fla]

No one ever said the religions teach the same thing, although there are ancient precedents. That’s why Bahá’u’lláh utters verses that take man in a new direction.
Consider other ways in which women were treated. It was worse for them before Muhammad!
Tahirih and Baha’u’llah were the same age (31) when he rescued her with the help of some others, and made sure she reached Badasht. She took off her veil in front of her fellow Bábís, and caused a commotion, but it was a signal that a new Dispensations with its’ own laws was coming --something new blowing in the wind.
jen fla: If you look at a particular law, you will not recognize the Law-Giver. The Arabs were not the same as others who became Christian at the time. They were hideously barbaric! Even with a cruel Idumean for a puupt-king of Rome, Israel was under the law of God. But the ignorant Arabs were polytheistic savages; and it is a proof of His prophethood that Muhammad was able to weld the tribes together, educate them, form them into a nation state, and destroy their idols.
Nevertheless, the Muslims are like Jews now, who have suspended their messiah before a hostile multitude.
Behold the absurdity of their saying; how far it hath strayed from the path of knowledge and understanding! Observe how in this day also, all these people have occupied themselves with such foolish absurdities. For over a thousand years they have been …unwittingly pronouncing their censure against the Jews, utterly unaware that they themselves, openly and privily, are voicing the sentiments and belief of the Jewish people!(Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 136)

let me ask you this: what does the baha’i faith have that would equip mankind to be more loving towards one another and closer to God than Catholicism?

 

[jen_fla]

No one ever said the religions teach the same thing, although there are ancient precedents. That’s why Bahá’u’lláh utters verses that take man in a new direction.
Consider other ways in which women were treated. It was worse for them before Muhammad!
Tahirih and Baha’u’llah were the same age (31) when he rescued her with the help of some others, and made sure she reached Badasht. She took off her veil in front of her fellow Bábís, and caused a commotion, but it was a signal that a new Dispensations with its’ own laws was coming --something new blowing in the wind.
jen fla: If you look at a particular law, you will not recognize the Law-Giver. The Arabs were not the same as others who became Christian at the time. They were hideously barbaric! Even with a cruel Idumean for a puupt-king of Rome, Israel was under the law of God. But the ignorant Arabs were polytheistic savages; and it is a proof of His prophethood that Muhammad was able to weld the tribes together, educate them, form them into a nation state, and destroy their idols.
Nevertheless, the Muslims are like Jews now, who have suspended their messiah before a hostile multitude.
Behold the absurdity of their saying; how far it hath strayed from the path of knowledge and understanding! Observe how in this day also, all these people have occupied themselves with such foolish absurdities. For over a thousand years they have been …unwittingly pronouncing their censure against the Jews, utterly unaware that they themselves, openly and privily, are voicing the sentiments and belief of the Jewish people!(Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 136)

there is more suffering in this world for women because mohammed existed!!!

many pagan societies treated women as property, but Christ taught that as women are to obey and love their husbands men are to love their wives as they love themselves and that is because the two become one. people get hung up on the word obey, but Jesus’ message was of love. how the heck did mohammed improve upon this? Christ never taught it was ok to beat women did he?

from the quran:

Qur’an (4:34) - “Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.”

quick summary of mohammed’s new and improved marital relationship advice

please take some time to do some further research on women’s rights in islam. what you stated above is INCREDIBLY offensive to women everywhere.

up is down, left is right… geez :hypno: