"The Baha'i Faith"

[DavidMark]

Gird up the loins of your endeavor, O people of Bahá, that haply the tumult of religious dissension and strife that agitateth the peoples of the earth may be stilled, that every trace of it may be completely obliterated. For the love of God, and them that serve Him, arise to aid this sublime and momentous Revelation. Religious fanaticism and hatred are a world-devouring fire, whose violence none can quench. The Hand of Divine power can, alone, deliver mankind from this desolating affliction. (Bahá’u’lláh, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 13)

It’s important to me to give the Bahá’í position, no matter what the response.
I am certainly not trying to please those who view religion from a narrow perspective.
God is beyond all our expectations and notions.
People tend to calcify --God is ever fluid in re-arranging all things!
I invite people to gain a glimpse, however, slight, of the titanic outpouring that came from the Báb & Bahá’u’lláh…more verses revealed than the OT, NT and Qur’án put together, over a much longer period than the 3 year of Jesus mission or the 23 year mission of Muhammad.
Covering more topics than were ever dealt with before, in an original style that is unattainable by others who study for years, these Twin Trumpet blasts issued forth from the heart of “innate and untaught” knowledge. “There is no place to flee to.”

 

[DavidMark]

Jen said: So far you have told me confession to the Priest is wrong, the Eucharist is foolish, Catholics didn’t want anyone to read the Bible, and that Jesus was not God etc.

The doctor needs to inhibit the alarm of the patient and break down the fear of pain, in order to affect a cure. Our faith in the immortality of the soul and the goodness of God will bring us through every afflictive torment. God is our creator and judge, not another creature.
Take the Eucharist for example. It is only the concept of trans-substantiation that ‘Abdu’l-Bahá said was “an absolute fantasy”. The Lord’s Supper still continues in the spiritual Nineteen Day Feast that is ordained by Bahá’u’lláh as the foundation of the communities consultations. No one is forced to attend, and many want to be there, but might be constrained by circumstances, as I have been; still, my heart is in attendance.

It is known the hierarchy didn’t want the Bible translated into common languages, when the common Catholics themselves wanted to read the Scriptures.

And last of all, the most stunning: Jesus was not God. Jesus Himself said in John 14:28** ‘My Father is greater than I.’** So, what dark pit do these fears crawl out of? It is so obvious!
John 5:19 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
This is why Jesus can say in John 10:30 I and my Father are one. He only does what God wills.
Hebrews 1:1-3 **God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom He hath appointed Heir of all things, by Whom also He made the worlds; Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express Image of His Person…**Colossians 1:15 Who is the Image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of every creature…

What is so difficult about this subject that certain souls have obsessed so much & so long over it? Look in a mirror… That is you in the mirror, yet it is not.
I don’t know what analogy could be simpler, or harder to grasp! Christ is the Image of God, a phrase I find better explains the mystery than Son of God.
**He that hath seen me hath seen the Father **(John 14:7-9) It’s as close as we can get to conceptualizing the Eternal! And yet we must remember **No man hath seen God at any time. **(1 John 4:12) This is the mystery of God! It behooves us not to wrangle over it, but meditate on it. Still, the detractors keep up their saw, like a cricket.

There are actually many other things which need to be, for the unity of mankind, corrected in religions of the past, not just the Catholics. No one can do this well except the Divine Physician. And what did the Lord of the Vineyard do when the tenants killed the son and heir? Lord Bahá’u’lláh has built a whole new house for mankind, when their old ones no longer serve. It is founded on the oneness of God; He is not legion; He is Single and alone and unapproachably glorious.

For us, we should focus on the oneness of humanity, for only now, in this age, will its true implication appear. We’re done with the ages of colonization, enslavement, misogyny, tyranny, isolation, terror and war. But now, it is as though “the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”
Thank God Almighty I do not have a good grasp on orthodoxy, nor does it have on me.

God knows the prescription for tranquility, and would have us be unified and worship Him with one accord.
Psalms 96:8 Give unto the LORD the glory due unto his name: bring an offering, and come into his courts.

 

[jen_fla]

Jen,

Sorry you are taking it so hard… !

We Baha’is didn’t start this thread but since it is here anyway we feel an obligation to present correct information about our Faith so you will know more about it. I think you’ll agree that even if you disagree it is important to have accurate information.

We Baha’is bear no animosity toward your church as you seem to be suggesting… We do believe that the Gospels contain the teachings of Jesus but are in some respects inaccurate.

in that regard your faith is similar to the mormons and the muslims. is it correct for me to say that the only proof you have of what is considered “inaccurate” is words spoken by bahá’u’lláh?

Yes we do not have priests or Mullahs in our religion… Our marriages are authorized by our elected institutions in the various states according to our laws…

Actually our attitude is that spiritual communion is just that a spiritual experience without a priest or ritual:

The Supper of the Lord which His Highness the Spirit ate with the apostles was a heavenly supper and not one of material bread and water, for material objects have no connection with spiritual objects. As at that time material food was also present, therefore the leaders of the religion of Christ thought that it was material food which was changed into spiritual food.

so you don’t believe our bodies house our souls?

The proof that it was not material food is this: The apostles upon many occasions partook of material food with His Highness Christ, yet the supper of that night became designated as the “Lord’s Supper.” From this designation it is plain and evident that they ate heavenly food at that supper. That heavenly food consisted of the love of God, the knowledge of God, the mysteries of God and the bestowal of God.

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith, p. 390

Our belief as I have posted here is that Jesus Christ was a Manifestation of God and not God as you believe. Yes in saying that it means to you that we disagree with what you’ve been taught and what you may recite in church…but so it is.

jeez, i give up. NO, not to me… like it’s some subjective thing, it’s a fact.

A= Christians believe Jesus was, is and always shall BE God
B= the baha’i beleive Jesus was not, is not and never shall BE God, but rather he was a manifestation of God.

A is not the same thing as B.

and i thank you for sharing what the Eucharist means to people of your faith. it is certainly not what Catholics, Orthodox or even certain protestant churches believe. i think the best we can do with this conversation is just hope you will note the major differences between some of our beliefs.

The authority we Baha’is accept are the revealed Writings of our Faith and not so much what I say or David says or any other Baha’i… Revealed Writings for us mean that they have been authenticated and correctly translated similar perhaps to what you have in your church when there is an imprimatur in a book or teaching.

Finally we Baha’is believe that the major religions have a common Source…

Abdul-Baha explained:

Read the Gospel and the other holy books. You will find their fundamentals are one and the same. Therefore unity is the essential truth of religion and when so understood embraces all the virtues of the human world.

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith p. 245

I realize this also is a departure from the teachings and beliefs of many Christians but it is nonetheless our belief.

So I wish you every success and blessing from God…

and i to you as well. peace!

and i do want to make a correction in my previous post:

then why do you keep accusing the Catholic Church of wrong doing in the exact same manner that protestants do? so far you have told me confession to the Priest is wrong, the Eucharist is foolish, Catholics didn’t want anyone to read the Bible, and that Jesus was not God etc. you can believe all that, but it is mind blowing that you actually think those things are true of the Christian faith. how would you like it if i told you what your faith taught? pretty insulting and silly don’t you think?

i should have said *in the exact same manner that some protestants do. my mistake.
*

 

[jen_fla]

Jen said: So far you have told me confession to the Priest is wrong, the Eucharist is foolish, Catholics didn’t want anyone to read the Bible, and that Jesus was not God etc.

The doctor needs to inhibit the alarm of the patient and break down the fear of pain, in order to affect a cure. Our faith in the immortality of the soul and the goodness of God will bring us through every afflictive torment. God is our creator and judge, not another creature.
Take the Eucharist for example. It is only the concept of trans-substantiation that ‘Abdu’l-Bahá said was “an absolute fantasy”. The Lord’s Supper still continues in the spiritual Nineteen Day Feast that is ordained by Bahá’u’lláh as the foundation of the communities consultations. No one is forced to attend, and many want to be there, but might be constrained by circumstances, as I have been; still, my heart is in attendance.
**
It is known the hierarchy didn’t want the Bible translated into common languages, when the common Catholics themselves wanted to read the Scriptures.**

And last of all, the most stunning: Jesus was not God. Jesus Himself said in John 14:28** ‘My Father is greater than I.’** So, what dark pit do these fears crawl out of? It is so obvious!
John 5:19 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
This is why Jesus can say in John 10:30 I and my Father are one. He only does what God wills.
Hebrews 1:1-3 **God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom He hath appointed Heir of all things, by Whom also He made the worlds; Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express Image of His Person…**Colossians 1:15 Who is the Image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of every creature…

What is so difficult about this subject that certain souls have obsessed so much & so long over it? Look in a mirror… That is you in the mirror, yet it is not.
I don’t know what analogy could be simpler, or harder to grasp! Christ is the Image of God, a phrase I find better explains the mystery than Son of God.
**He that hath seen me hath seen the Father **(John 14:7-9) It’s as close as we can get to conceptualizing the Eternal! And yet we must remember **No man hath seen God at any time. **(1 John 4:12) This is the mystery of God! It behooves us not to wrangle over it, but meditate on it. Still, the detractors keep up their saw, like a cricket.

There are actually many other things which need to be, for the unity of mankind, corrected in religions of the past, not just the Catholics. No one can do this well except the Divine Physician. And what did the Lord of the Vineyard do when the tenants killed the son and heir? Lord Bahá’u’lláh has built a whole new house for mankind, when their old ones no longer serve. It is founded on the oneness of God; He is not legion; He is Single and alone and unapproachably glorious.

For us, we should focus on the oneness of humanity, for only now, in this age, will its true implication appear. We’re done with the ages of colonization, enslavement, misogyny, tyranny, isolation, terror and war. But now, it is as though “the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”
Thank God Almighty I do not have a good grasp on orthodoxy, nor does it have on me.

God knows the prescription for tranquility, and would have us be unified and worship Him with one accord.
Psalms 96:8 Give unto the LORD the glory due unto his name: bring an offering, and come into his courts.

part in red: more of your prejudiced anti-Catholic shots.

why don’t you back up that attack with some proof? i feel sorry for you that you have been taught so much misinformation. btw, most “common Catholics” could not read back then.

have you ever even bothered to research the other side? i doubt it. here’s a very short take, but you can research further on your own.

also a thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=184828

the rest of your post is more sola scriptura errors. i am too tired to respond, but then i saw part of this appropriate verse on the above link i sent you.
*
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, brethren, knowing these things before, take heed, lest being led aside by the error of the unwise, you fall from your own steadfastness. 18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and unto the day of eternity. Amen. 2 Peter*

 

[DavidMark]

Dear Jen, this is a special prayer from 'Abdu’l-Baha that I used to say for my daughter when we tucked her in at night…

O Thou most glorious Lord! Make this little maidservant of Thine blessed and happy; cause her to be cherished at the threshold of Thy oneness and let her drink deep from the cup of Thy love so that she may be filled with rapture and ecstasy and diffuse sweet-scented fragrance. Thou art the Mighty and the Powerful, and Thou art the All- Knowing, the All-Seeing.

 

[DavidMark]

The accuracy or inaccuracy of anything is determined in the balance of the Divine Manifestation, who sets the measure of al things.

Judge ye between them according to the precepts prescribed by God in His most holy and exalted Tablet, a Tablet wherein He hath assigned to each and every thing its settled measure, in which He hath given, with distinctness, an explanation of all things, and which is in itself a monition unto them that believe in Him. Examine Our Cause, inquire into the things that have befallen Us, and decide justly between Us and Our enemies, and be ye of them that act equitably towards their neighbor. (Baha’u’llah, GWB, p. 252)

Jen asked: so you don’t believe our bodies house our souls?
That is an incorrect conclusion. As the Preacher said:
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

O friend, Are you ignoring the explanation from the Gospel that Jesus was the Image of God. Now, would you give me your very best scriptural proof that Jesus was God?

 

[jen_fla]

Dear Jen, this is a special prayer from 'Abdu’l-Baha that I used to say for my daughter when we tucked her in at night…

O Thou most glorious Lord! Make this little maidservant of Thine blessed and happy; cause her to be cherished at the threshold of Thy oneness and let her drink deep from the cup of Thy love so that she may be filled with rapture and ecstasy and diffuse sweet-scented fragrance. Thou art the Mighty and the Powerful, and Thou art the All- Knowing, the All-Seeing.

that is a very beautiful prayer.

however, this does not provide me with any proof you have to back up your previous attack on the Catholic Church. if you go back and reread this entire thread you will see that i have let many of your prejudiced statements slide that you have presented here without offering any proof to back them up. did you read through the links i gave you?

what next? are you going to say we worship statues?

 

[jen_fla]

The accuracy or inaccuracy of anything is determined in the balance of the Divine Manifestation, who sets the measure of al things.

Judge ye between them according to the precepts prescribed by God in His most holy and exalted Tablet, a Tablet wherein He hath assigned to each and every thing its settled measure, in which He hath given, with distinctness, an explanation of all things, and which is in itself a monition unto them that believe in Him. Examine Our Cause, inquire into the things that have befallen Us, and decide justly between Us and Our enemies, and be ye of them that act equitably towards their neighbor. (Baha’u’llah, GWB, p. 252)

Jen asked: so you don’t believe our bodies house our souls?
That is an incorrect conclusion. As the Preacher said:
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

O friend, Are you ignoring the explanation from the Gospel that Jesus was the Image of God. Now, would you give me your very best scriptural proof that Jesus was God?

to the part in red: :hypno: either you know very, very little about Christianity or you are deliberately trying to be difficult with me. obviously i was asking the question because your faith teaches this:

The Supper of the Lord which His Highness the Spirit ate with the apostles was a heavenly supper and not one of material bread and water, for material objects have no connection with spiritual objects. As at that time material food was also present, therefore the leaders of the religion of Christ thought that it was material food which was changed into spiritual food.

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith, p. 390

and obviously we as Christians believe that we have souls (a spiritual nature) and bodies (a material nature) that are connected. there is no need for you to quote Christian scripture to me to reinforce what i already know.

i am asking arthra (asked you before in a previous thread and never received an answer) if the baha’t don’t believe that our bodies house our souls. if you say yes, then kindly explain to me what that statement in bold above means.

and you still don’t get it. you have every right to believe any person you want to that starts a new religion. you have every right to accept or reject beliefs of the religions that came before yours, but you do not have the right to take things out of context and redefine fundamental teachings that the CC has held since the times of the apostles. this analogy might be flawed, but you are like a well-intentioned, intelligent undergrad university student that found einstein’s journal who then began to use it to explain his theories. it is lost on you that you never were his student so the more difficult parts and short notes might not seem as simple and straightforward as you make them out to be. it is lost on you that in addition to that valuable yet very difficult to interpret journal are countless documents that you never had access to that supplement the knowledge that einstein had. and seeing that you were never his pupil, you were never passed on any teachings orally or given any clear direction in areas that might appear to be gray.

(contd)

 

[jen_fla]

and i will meet your request even though i have noticed a pattern of you constantly changing the subject to avoid my questions or just throwing out accusations against the Church to deflect.

from Holy Scripture:
**
Jesus Christ Claims to be God**

Matt. 4:7; Luke 4:12 - Jesus tells satan, “you shall not tempt the Lord your God” in reference to Himself.

Matt. 5:21-22; 27-28; 31-32; 33-34; 38-39; 43-44 - Jesus makes Himself equal to God when He declares, “You heard it said…but I say to you…”

Matt. 7:21-22; Luke 6:46 - not everyone who says to Jesus, “Lord, Lord.” Jesus calls Himself Lord, which is God.

Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:5; Luke 5:20; 7:48 - Jesus forgives sins. Only God can forgive sins.

Matt. 12:8; Mark 2:28; Luke 6:5 - Jesus says that He is “Lord of the Sabbath.” He is the Lord of God’s law which means He is God.

Matt. 18:20 - Jesus says where two or three are gathered in His name, there He is in the midst of them.

Matt. 21:3; Luke 19:31,34 - Jesus calls himself “Lord.” “The Lord has need of them.”

Matt. 26:64; Mark 14:62; Luke 22:70 - Jesus acknowledges that He is the Son of God.

Matt. 28:20 - Jesus said He is with us always, even unto the end of the world. Only God is omnipresent.

Mark 14:36 - Jesus calls God “Abba,” Aramaic for daddy, which was an absolutely unprecedented address to God and demonstrates Jesus’ unique intimacy with the Father.

Luke 8:39 - Luke reports that Jesus said “tell how much God has done for you.” And the man declared how much Jesus did.

Luke 17:18 - Jesus asks why the other nine lepers did not come back to give praise to Him, God, except the Samaritan leper.

Luke 19:38,40 - Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. If these were silent, the very stones would cry out.

John 5:18 - Jesus claimed to be God. The Jews knew this because Jesus called God His Father and made Himself equal to God. This is why Jesus was crucified.

John 5:21-22 - Jesus gives life and says that all judgment has been given to Him by the Father.

John 5:23 - Jesus equates Himself with the Father, “whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.”

John 6:38 - Jesus says, “For I have come down from heaven.”

John 8:12 - Jesus says “I am the light of the world.” - 1 John 1:5 - God is light and in him there is no darkness at all.

John 8:19 - Jesus says, “if you knew me, you would know my Father also.”

John 8:23 - Jesus says that He is not of this world. Only God is not of this world.

John 8:58 - Jesus says, “Before Abraham was, I AM.” Exodus 3:14 - “I AM” means “Yahweh,” which means God.

John 10:18 - Jesus says He has the power to lay down His life and take it up again - Gal. 1:1 - God raised Jesus to life.

John 10:30 - Jesus says, “I and the Father are one.” They are equal. The Jews even claimed Jesus made Himself equal to God. Jesus’ statement in John 14:28, “the Father is greater than I,” cannot contradict John 10:30 (the Word of God is never in conflict). Jesus’ statement in John 14:28 simply refers to His human messianic role as servant and slave, which He, and not the Father or the Holy Spirit, undertook in the flesh.

John 10:36 - again, Jesus claims that He is “the Son of God.”

John 10:38; 14:10 - “the Father is in me and I am in the Father” means the Father and Son are equal.

John 12:45 - Jesus says, “He who sees Me sees Him who sent Me.” God the Father is equal to God the Son.

John 13:13 - Jesus says, “You call me Teacher and Lord and you are right for so I AM.”

John 14:6 - Jesus says “I am the way, and the truth and the life.” Only God is the way, the truth and the life.

John 16:15 - Jesus says, “all things that the Father has are Mine.” Jesus has everything God has which makes Him God.

John 16:28 - Jesus says that “He came from the Father and has come into the world.”

John 17:5,24 - Jesus’ desire is for us to behold His glory which He had before the foundation of the world.

John 20:17 - Jesus distinguishes His relationship to the Father from our relationship by saying “My Father and your Father.”

Rev. 1:8 - God says He is the “Alpha and the Omega.” In Rev. 22:13, Jesus also says He is the “Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end.” The only possible conclusion one can reach is that Jesus is equal to the Lord God.

Rev. 1:17 - Jesus says again, “I am the First and the Last.” This is in reference to the God prophesied by Isaiah in Isaiah 44:6, 41:4, 48:12.

Rev. 1:18 - Jesus, the First and the Last, also says “I died, and behold, I am alive for evermore.” When did God ever die? He only did in the humanity of Jesus Christ our Lord and God.

Rev. 2:8 - Jesus again says, “The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life.” When did God die and come to life? In our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[jen_fla]

**
Jesus Christ’s Witnesses Claim that Jesus is God**

John 1:1 - John writes, “the Word was God.” This is clear evidence of Jesus Christ’s divinity. (Note: in the Jehovah’s bible, the passage was changed to “Word was a god.” This is not only an embarrassing attempt to deny the obvious divinity of Christ, but it also violates the first commandment and Isaiah 43:10 because it acknowledges that there is more than one God).

John 1:2-3 - He (the Word) was in the beginning with God and all things were made through Him (the Word who was God).

John 1:14 - the Word (who is God) became flesh (Jesus) and dwelled among us, full of grace and truth.

John 1:18 - the Greek word for “only-begotten” is “monogenes” which means unique, only member of a kind. It does not mean created.

John 1:51 - the angels of God - Matt. 13:41 - Son of Man’s angels; 2 Thess. 1:7 - Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His angels.

John 3:5 - Jesus says without baptism one cannot enter into the Kingdom of God - Col. 1:13 - Paul says this is Jesus’ Kingdom.

John 6:68-69 - Peter confesses that Jesus is the Son of God who has the words of eternal life.

Acts 2:36 - God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ - Acts 4:24 - Sovereign Lord who made heaven and earth. This means Jesus is God.

Acts 3:15 - Peter said the men of Israel “killed the Author of Life.” This can only be God - Acts 14:15 - who made all things.

Acts 20:28 - to care for the Church of God which He obtained with His own blood. This means God shed His blood. When? When He died on the cross. This means Jesus is God.

Rom. 1:1 - Paul is an apostle of the Gospel of God - Rom. 15:19 - Paul preached the Gospel of Christ.

Rom. 7:22 - Paul says he delights in the law of God - Gal. 6:2 - Paul says fulfill the law of Christ.

Rom. 8:9 - Paul refers to both the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ.

Rom. 9:5 - Jesus Christ is God over all, blessed forever.

Rom. 11:36 - God for from Him through Him and to Him are all things - Heb. 2:10 - Jesus for whom and by whom are all things.

1 Cor. 15:9 - Paul says he persecuted the Church of God - Matt. 16:18; Rom. 16:16 - it is the Church of Jesus Christ.

1 Cor. 15:28 - God may be all in all - Colossians 3:11 - Christ is all and in all.

Gal. 1:5 - God the Father to whom be the glory forever - 2 Peter 3:18 - to Jesus Christ be the glory both now and forever.

Phil. 2:6-7 - Jesus was in the form of God, but instead of asserting His equality with God, emptied Himself for us.

Col. 1:15 - Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the “firstborn” of all creation. The Greek word for “first-born” is “prototokos” which means eternal preexistence (it never means created).

Col. 1:26 - God’s saints - 1 Thess. 3:13 - at the coming of Jesus Christ with all His saints.

Col. 2:9 - in Jesus Christ the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. He is the whole and entire fullness of the indivisible God in the flesh.

Titus 1:1 - Paul says he is a servant of God - Rom. 1:1 - Paul says he is a servant of Jesus Christ.

Titus 1:3-4 - God our Savior = Christ our Savior = Jesus Christ is God.

Titus 2:11 - the grace of God that has appeared to save all men - Acts 15:11 - through the grace of Jesus we have salvation.

Titus 2:13 - we await our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Titus 3:4 - 3:6 - great God and Savior Jesus Christ = God our Savior = Jesus Christ our Savior = Jesus is God.

Heb. 1:6 - when God brings His first-born into the world, let all the angels of God worship Him. Only God is worshiped.

Heb. 1:8 - God calls the Son “God.” But of the Son He says, “Thy Throne Oh God is forever and ever.”

Heb. 1:9 - God calls the Son “God.” “Therefore, God, Thy God has anointed Thee.”

Heb. 1:10 - God calls the Son “Lord.” “And thou, Lord, didst found the earth in the beginning and the heavens are your work.”

Heb. 13:12 - Paul says Jesus sanctifies the people with His blood - 1 Thess. 5:23 - the God of peace sanctifies the people.

2 Peter 1:1 - to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing in the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:20 - “that we may know Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.”

Jude 4 - Jude calls Jesus Christ our only Master and Lord. Our only Master and Lord is God Himself.

Rev. 2:8 - the angel of the church in Smyrna wrote, “The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life.” See Isa. 44:6.

Rev. 22:6 - the Lord God sends angels - Rev. 22:16 - Jesus sends angels.

 

[jen_fla]

Jesus Christ is Worshiped

Rev. 4:9-11; 5:8,12-14; 7:11-12 - both Jesus and the Father are worshiped. The Greek word for worship is “proskuneo” which always means the worship of God.

Matt. 2:2,11 - the magi who came to see the newborn Jesus came to worship Him.

Matt. 8:2 - a leper came to Jesus and worshiped Him without rebuke.

Matt. 14:33 - the apostles who were in the boat worshiped Jesus without rebuke.

Matt. 28:9 - Jesus’ disciples took His feet and worshiped Him without rebuke.

Matt. 28:17 - Jesus’ disciples saw Him and then worshiped Him.

Mark 5:6 - the man with the unclean spirit ran to Jesus and worshiped Him.

Luke 1:11 - Mary accepts Elizabeth’s declaration “the Mother of my Lord” = the Mother of my God (Elizabeth used the word “Adonai” which means “Lord God”).

Luke 24:52 - as Jesus ascended into heaven, the apostles worshiped Him.

John 9:38 - the blind man who was cured by Jesus worshiped Him.

John 20:28 - Jesus accepts Thomas’ statement “My Lord and my God!” Literally, “the Lord of me and the God of me!” (in Greek, “Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mou”).

all taken from here
and i already provided you with numerous statements from the early Church fathers that showed they defended his divinity from the earliest of days against the gnostics and other heretics at the time. there are more, but seeing that you ignored them i won’t waste my time.

so you are left with the fact that ALL Christians believe that Christ IS God except for the jehovah witnesses (and maybe some other new age christian groups i’m unaware of) which leaves you with having to accept that this is a very HUGE and crucial difference between what Christianity and your faith teaches.

again, you are free to accept that, but you are deluding yourself into thinking that this major contradiction can be smoothed away.

it can’t.

even if 98% of your religion jived with Christianity this major difference “in messages” should expose you to it’s fatal flaw.

 

[DavidMark]

Jen, Please try not to be saucy with me, and i’ll do the same, since it’s just between the two of us for now. This is important to us both, so let’s be extra kind with each other.

I asked you for the single best quote, but thanks for the list anyway.
Try to narrow it down to the most impressive one, to you anyway.
I have tried to show that obedience to the Manifestations is obedience to God; in that sense I see a holy ambiguity. They are and are not God, like the mirror’s image.

For instance, weigh these passages from the Qur’án, because I defend the Prophethood of three Messengers after Jesus, in this case Muhammad, even when Muslims are guilty of persecuting th Bábís and the Bahá’ís:

**Obey Allah, and obey the Apostle. Beware; if you give no heed, know that Our apostle’s duty is only to give plain warning. **(Qur’án 5:92)
He that obeys the Apostle obeys Allah Himself. (Qur’án 4:80)
**He that disobeys the Apostle after Our guidance has been revealed to him and follows a path other than that of the faithful, shall be given what he has chosen. We will cast him into Hell: a dismal end. ** (4:115)

I admit I need to study up on history. I was thinking of the martyrdom of William Tyndale, who tried to get the Bible translated into English, and in 1536, it may have been Henry VIII he had to deal with and not the Roman church…so I am still reading up on that.

Have a good week, and God be with you.

 

[vivs3]

Okay, you know what, maybe we should recap everything that has gone on, or better yet give in my opinions.
Ever since this thread has started, the Catholics have been arguing against the Bahais; there’s nothing wrong with that, but you guys are just wasting your time because, first of all, you haven’t gotten anywhere, just tugging at each other’s throats, to back me up with this statment; no Catholic here believes that Bahaullah is the second coming of Christ, no matter what the Bahais say, proof, after proof, after proof. Well that is your religion, don’t tell me to believe in something that is not in my religion; and because of that the Bahais have found faults within the Catholic faith/Church, well you know what? The Bahai faith isn’t so perfect either, claiming that Jesus Christ has already come and looking at the Christians like a laughing stock because he’s already come? I beg your pardon, that is very disrespectful.
No one or nothing is perfect, so stop arguing, cause you’re not going to get anywhere.

 

[DavidMark]

Dear one, If you don’t like being told the Promised One is come, why keep visiting?
Please take yourself where you would be happier! I have never laughed at any one here.

But don’t forget one thing:
"A day shall be witnessed by My people whereon there will have remained of Islam naught but a name, and of the Qur’án naught but a mere appearance. The doctors of that age shall be the most evil the world hath ever seen. Mischief hath proceeded from them, and on them will it recoil." And, again: "At that hour His malediction shall descend upon you, and your curse shall afflict you, and your religion shall remain an empty word on your tongues. And when these signs appear amongst you, anticipate the day when the red-hot wind will have swept over you, or the day when ye will have been disfigured, or when stones will have rained upon you."
(Shoghi Effendi, quoting a Muslim tradition in The World Order of Baha’u’llah, p. 179)

O my God, my Master, my Best-Beloved!
I am Thy servant and the son of Thy servant. I have held fast the cord of Thy grace, and clung to the hem of the garment of Thy loving providence.
I entreat Thee, by Thy Most Great Name, Whom Thou hast appointed as the unerring Balance among the nations, and Thine infallible Proof unto all men, not to forsake me, nor to abandon me to my corrupt desires.
Do Thou preserve me beneath the shadow of Thy Supreme Sinlessness, and enable me to magnify Thine own Self amidst the concourse of Thy creatures.
Withhold not from me the Divine fragrance of Thy days, and deprive me not of the sweet savors wafting from the Day-Spring of Thy Revelation.
Bestow on me the good of this world and of the next, through the power of Thy grace that hath encompassed all created things and Thy mercy that hath surpassed the entire creation. Thou art He Who holdeth in His grasp the kingdom of all things.
Thou doest what Thou willest through Thy decree, and choosest, through the power of Thy might, whatsoever Thou desirest. None can resist Thy will; naught can exhaust the impelling force of Thy command. There is no God but Thee, the Almighty, the All-Glorious, the Most Bountiful. ( Prayers and Meditations by Baha’u’llah, p. 99)

 

[vivs3]

If the Promised One has come, the Christians would have followed. Here, would you like me to show you this, logically?
Jesus Christ came, and the faith that round up was Christian/Catholic.
Jesus said I will come back/return to earth, not in my physical form, obviously, but I will return, and all of my FOLLOWERS will know that I have returned and will follow me again.
So who were his followers? Christians were. So who would have followed when he came the second time? The Christians.
Okay you got me? I mean it’s so logical.
So to speak, Bahais say that the Promised One has come, but NO Christian followed. Why? because the Christians didn’t believe he was the promised one.
Well don’t give me that, because i just said, the Christians would havre followed the Return of Jesus Christ cos that’s who they follow!!! and they would have known. Okay. That’s my view.

 

[DavidMark]

On the contrary, I was a Christian, and that is why I recognized the Shepherd’s Voice. And many other Christians heard His voice as well. After 'Abdu’l-Baha’s coming to America, it was Baha’is from Christian background who took the Baha’i Faith to all the other nations of the world!

I discovered you can’t approach the topic of Archangel Michael fully without looking at the Advent of Bahá’u’lláh (1817-1892).
Rabbinic literature says it was Michael that spoke from the Burning Bush. Bahá’u’lláh says it was His Voice. He states that His Pen is His sword and His trumpet, with which He reveals the Word of God. He brings the Balance of all things.
Michael is one the ‘princes of Persia.’ So was Bahá’u’lláh --who was descended from Abraham through his third wife Katurah, from Zoroaster, from Sasan, son of Cyrus the Great, and from Jesse-David-Solomon-Rehoboam etc.
Michael was to appear with the Son of Man in First Thess. 4:16. Michael is the Protector, who ‘has charge’ of the Jews, whose nation did not re-appear in the Holy Land until Bahá’u’lláh announced it in His Writings; the long ‘time of the gentiles’ is over.
Michael is associated with the water of life & the tree of life, which re-appear in New Jerusalem…which doesn’t ‘need the sun’ because it is lighted by the "Glory of God’.
‘Micha-EL’ means ‘one who looks like God’; Bahá’u’lláh means ‘The Glory of God’.
A. H. Silver, in his History of Messianic Speculation in Israel, comments on the Book of Elijah, saying: ‘The angel Michael, after showing Elijah the regions of heaven, reveals to him on Mount Carmel, the time of the end.’
Bahá’u’lláh revealed the Tablet of Carmel, when He stood upon on it and established the institutions of the Throne, for those who will ascend to it –the ‘most exalted angels’.
Could the Bahá’í Terraces be ‘Jacob’s Ladder’? I sure think so!
There is no mention of Michael in Bahá’í Scripture. Bahá’u’lláh does state that He is the “Everlasting Father”, in the long-promised, new, Most Great Name, which was established, Enoch says, through ‘the instrumentality of the holy Michael.’ [Enoch 69:15]

In the Dead Sea “War Scroll”, which was found at Qumran, there is described, in military terms, the contest between the ‘Sons of Light’ and the ‘Sons of Darkness’; we find the following passage:
‘But as for the God of Israel, all that has been and is and shall be throughout the vicissitudes of all time are in His hand. This is the Day which He hath appointed for abasing and humbling the [Prince] of the Dominion of Wickedness. But He will send perpetual help to those who have a share in His redemption through the power of Michael, the mighty, ministering angel; and He will send also an eternal light to light up the children of Israel with joy. They that have cast their lot with God shall enjoy peace and blessing.
**In this way, the rule of Michael will be exalted among the angels, and the dominion of Israel among all flesh. **Righteousness shall flourish in heaven, and all who espouse God’s truth shall rejoice in the knowledge of eternal things. And ye, the sons of His covenant, be of good courage in the trial which God visits upon you, until He gives the sign that He has completed His test. His secret powers will always be with you’. (The Dead Sea Scriptures, Theodor H. Gaster)
Whoever is an enemy to God and His angels and apostles, to Gabriel and Michael, --Lo! God is an enemy to those who reject faith. (Qur’án 2:98)
The ‘Woman’ is protected and the ‘Dragon’ thrown down by Michael in Revelation, chapter 12. This has been interpreted in detail by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá.

 

[vivs3]

I don’t believe you were a Christian before hand… ok if you really were… what made you convert? What was your first reaction when you heard that Jesus had already come the second time around, as a Christian? Because I reckon you are a gulible person, if you were a Christian, wouldn’t you stand by your beliefs?

 

[DavidMark]

It is naive to think all Christians will see the Return of Christ. Did all the Jews the first time? What makes it different now?

Verily, He is the Tree of Life that bringeth forth the fruits of God. (Bahá’u’lláh, Tablet of Ahmad)
**This is that blessed and everlasting life that perisheth not: whosoever is quickened thereby shall never die, but will endure as long as His Lord and Creator will endure. **(Bahá’u’lláh, Gems of Divine Mysteries, p. 47)

Enoch 24:1 And from thence I went to another place of the earth, and he showed me a mountain range of fire which burnt day and night. And I went beyond it and saw seven magnificent mountains all differing each from the other, and the stones (thereof) were magnificent and beautiful, magnificent as a whole, of glorious appearance and fair exterior: three towards the east, one founded on the other, and three towards the south, one upon the other, and deep rough ravines, no one of which joined with any other. And the seventh mountain was in the midst of these, and it excelled them in height, resembling the seat of a throne: and fragrant trees encircled the throne. And amongst them was a tree such as I had never yet smelt, neither was any amongst them nor were others like it: it had a fragrance beyond all fragrance, and its leaves and blooms and wood wither not for ever: and its fruit is beautiful, and its fruit n resembles the dates of a palm.
Then I said: ‘How beautiful is this tree, and fragrant, and its leaves are fair, and its blooms very delightful in appearance.’
Then answered Michael, one of the holy and honoured angels who was with me, and was their leader. 25:1 And he said unto me: ‘Enoch, why dost thou ask me regarding the fragrance of the tree, and why dost thou wish to learn the truth?’ Then I answered him saying: ‘I wish to know about everything, but especially about this tree.’ And he answered saying: **‘This high mountain which thou hast seen, whose summit is like the throne of God, is His throne, where the Holy Great One, the Lord of Glory, the Eternal King, will sit, when He shall come down to visit the earth with goodness. And as for this fragrant tree no mortal is permitted to touch it till the great judgement, when He shall take vengeance on all and bring (everything) to its consummation for ever. It shall then be given to the righteous and holy. Its fruit shall be for food to the elect: it shall be transplanted to the holy place, to the temple of the Lord, the Eternal King.’ **

Thus have We built the Temple with the hands of power and might, could ye but know it. This is the Temple promised unto you in the Book. Draw ye nigh unto it.
This is that which profiteth you, could ye but comprehend it. Be fair, O peoples of the earth! Which is preferable, this, or a temple which is built of clay? Set your faces towards it. Thus have ye been commanded by God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.(Baha’u’llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. ii)

My purpose and intention is to remove from the hearts of men the religious enmity and hatred which have fettered them and to bring all religions into agreement and unity. Inasmuch as this hatred and enmity, this bigotry and intolerance are outcomes of misunderstandings, the reality of religious unity will appear when these misunderstandings are dispelled. For the foundation of the divine religions is one foundation. This is the oneness of revelation or teaching; but alas! we have turned away from that foundation, holding tenaciously to various dogmatic forms and blind imitation of ancestral beliefs. This is the real cause of enmity, hatred and bloodshed in the world; the reason of alienation and estrangement among mankind.(Abdu’l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 96)

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

So to speak, Bahais say that the Promised One has come, but NO Christian followed.

No knowledgeable Bahai would say that, because we all know many Christians (and Muslims, Zoroastrians, Jews) who have become Bahais, and some of the former clergy have later become prominent in the Bahai community. George Townshend was Archdeacon of Clonfert before becoming a Bahai, and later a ‘Hand of the Cause.’ He wrote a number of Bahai books from which older Bahais, like myself, learned a great deal: ‘Christ and Bahá’u’lláh’, ‘The Heart of the Gospel’ and ‘The Promise of All Ages’, and a small booklet called as I recall ‘The old world churches and the new world order’. Abu’l-Faḍl (or Fazl) Gulpaygani was a teacher of Shiah theology and head of a religious college in Tehran when he met the Bahais and converted. He became one of the Apostles of Baha’u’llah and wrote numerous books such as ‘Miracles and Metaphors’ and ‘The Bahá’í Proofs’ – the latter written for a Christian clergyman.

There are certainly many verses that support the divinity of Christ, and others that show he differed from God: neither a Christian nor a Bahai understanding is helped by focussing only on one or other set of verses. Both theologies are evidently struggling to capture in words a person, and a relationship to God, that is beyond us and beyond words. My own thought – and other Bahais may disagree with me – is that the assertion “that the Son was like the Father in all things, according to the Holy Writ,” as employed by the Councils of Rimini and Seleucia, has a lot to recommend it. It doesn’t set out a philosophical formula such as ‘Homoousion’, but rather directs us back to read the stories, which present us with Christ as a person. In the same way, if we want to ‘know’ Baha’u’llah we turn not to the theology books or even the various scriptural formulations on this topic, but rather to the person of Baha’u’llah as shown in his life and writings as a whole.

On of those scriptural formulations says :

“This station is the station in which one dieth to himself and liveth in God. Divinity, whenever I mention it, indicateth My complete and absolute self-effacement. This is the station in which I have no control over mine own weal or woe nor over my life nor over my resurrection.”
(Baha’u’llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 40)

Which is paradoxical. It is not a question of trying to ‘fill’ the person of Jesus or of Baha’u’llah with the appropriate measure of ‘divinity’ correctly formulated - but rather seeing their emptiness, and through them, seeing God at work.

 

[planten]

There is some interesting discussion going on between the Catholics and the Bahai’s. I wanted to know about Bahaullah whether he was:

1. God.?
2. Prophet of God.?
3. God as well prophet of God.?
4. Manifestation of God?
   If Bahaullah was manifestation of God then he could not be God. He could be a prophet of God. Then he must have recieved revelations from God.

Please tell when did Bahaullah receive the very first revelation from God (Allah)? (The year please)?
What words were in that first revelation?
In what language it was revealed to Bahaullah?

Baha’is say that Bahaullah was the second coming of Jesus or Messiah. The problem is that the Jews are waiting for their Messiah. The Christians are waiting for their Messiah. The Muslims are waiting for their Messiah. But Jews and Muslims are not waiting for Jesus son of Mary. I am sure that Jews and Muslims are not expecting the coming of Jesus (son of Mary).

Did Bahaullah claim that he was the second coming of Jesus son of Mary?

Please tell all these things. They will help to understand in a better way. There is no need to give long lectures. You know the questions. You know the direct short answers. Give your own answers. Then if required, quotes will be called for. Thanks.