"The Baha'i Faith"

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DavidMark said:
Now the Vatican Archives has the Tablet from Baha’u’llah in it, but the Popes have not wanted to talk about it, apparently
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So far as I know, this letter is simply catalogued like any other item of diplomatic correspondence. The Vatican library copy is not of any great historical significance because the letter to Pope Piux IX has been published in the original and translation, so there’s no reason for scholars to make a particular fuss about the Vatican’s copy. There’s actually a manuscript copy of this in our local university library: University of Leiden ; Ms Or 4970 item 2 27r-31v. Let’s not do a Dan Brown here: the lack of publicity for the Vatican Library copy is not a sign of anything but the ease of access to other copies.

Nowadays, these things are available online. The English translation of Baha’u’llah’s letter to the Pope here:
reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/SLH/slh-5.html

~~ Sen
 
I see your point Sen; but the result is the same: The RCC ignores the Good News in the Tablet.

**Well might the Sovereign Pontiff recall the reign of the most powerful among his predecessors, Innocent III who, during the eighteen years of his pontificate, raised and deposed the kings and the emperors, whose interdicts deprived nations of the exercise of Christian worship, at the feet of whose legate the King of England surrendered his crown, and at whose voice the fourth and the fifth crusades were both undertaken.

Might not the process, to which reference has already been made, manifest, in the course of its operation, during the tumultuous years in store for mankind, and in this same domain, a commotion still more devastating than it has yet produced?**(Shoghi Effendi, The Promised Day is Come, p. 55)
 
Array yourselves in the perfection of divine virtues.
I hope you may be quickened and vivified
by the breaths of the Holy Spirit.
Then shall ye indeed become the angels of heaven
whom Christ promised would appear in this Day
to gather the harvest of divine planting.
This is my hope. This is my prayer for you.
~‘Abdu’l-Bahá (1844-1921)
:angel1:
 
Jerusha said:
Baha’i believes that the culmination will be a world theocracy. I believe that government and religion should always be separate, that they should only advise each other, because of the only too human tendency of abuse of power. That is the role that Baha’i has taken so far, and that is good, despite the fear many people have of Baha’i.So we can be allies of differing beliefs, at present.The readings you posted are very good.
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**If the rulers and kings of the earth, the symbols of the power of God, exalted be His glory, arise and resolve to dedicate themselves to whatever will promote the highest interests of the whole of humanity, the reign of justice will assuredly be established amongst the children of men, and the effulgence of its light will envelop the whole earth… Justice hath a mighty force at its command. It is none other than reward and punishment for the deeds of men. **By the power of this force the tabernacle of order is established throughout the world, causing the wicked to restrain their natures for fear of punishment. ****~Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 164

The dissociation of the Bábí Faith from every form of political activity and from all secret associations and factions; the emphasis placed on the principle of non-violence; the necessity of strict obedience to established authority; the ban imposed on all forms of sedition, on back-biting, retaliation, and dispute; the stress laid on godliness, kindliness, humility and piety, on honesty and truthfulness, chastity and fidelity, on justice, toleration, sociability, amity and concord, on the acquisition of arts and sciences, on self-sacrifice and detachment, on patience, steadfastness and resignation to the will of God – all these constitute the salient features of a code of ethical conduct to which the books, treatises and epistles, revealed during those years, by the indefatigable pen of Bahá’u’lláh, unmistakably bear witness. (Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 132)

With political questions the clergy, however, have nothing to do! Religious matters should not be confused with politics in the present state of the world (for their interests are not identical). Religion concerns matters of the heart, of the spirit, and of morals. Politics are occupied with the material things of life. ~‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Paris Talks, p. 157
 
Friend Jerusha, You admit the social principles are good, and they can be incorporated while Catholics remain in the Church, and try to bypass the Tree beyond which there is no passing!. But that is admitting that good fruit comes from a bad tree, and Christ said “you cannot get good fruit from a bad tree, or bad fruit from a good tree”

Furthermore Abdu’l-Baha said:
He has set forth the solution and provided the remedy for the economic question.
No religious books of the past Prophets speak of this important human problem.
He has ordained and established the House of Justice which is endowed with a political as well as a religious function, the consummate union and blending of church and state. This institution is under the protecting power of Bahá’u’lláh Himself. A universal or international House of Justice shall also be organized. Its rulings shall be in accordance with the commands and teachings of Bahá’u’lláh, and that which the universal House of Justice ordains shall be obeyed by all mankind. This international House of Justice shall be appointed and organized from the Houses of Justice of the whole world, and all the world shall come under its administration. (The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 455 & BWF p. 247 )

Here, Abdu’l-Baha uses the word that is translated as ‘political’, but it used in the earlier sense, as pertaining to material things, not partisanship, God forbid!
Most modern leaders, the US included, are concerned with economic matters, shifting matter and mammon from one point to another --whereas the Manifestation of God brings spiritual manna for the inspiration of a new civilization.
 
DavidMark said:
Furthermore Abdu’l-Baha said:…
He has ordained and established the House of Justice which is endowed with a political as well as a religious function, the consummate union and blending of church and state. … (The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 455 & BWF p. 247 )
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This text is not authentic DavidMark. The original was a “pilgrim’s note” which is the Bahai equivalent of the apocyrpha, but this particular one was interpolated later: it is not just not-authentic, it is a corrupted text. Bahais are fortunate in having a scripture that can be authenticated from originals, it is therefore incumbent on the Bahais to use the authentic texts and not put any reliance on pilgrim’s notes and other questionable material that circulates in the community. It has occured to me in fact that a study of the way authentic and non-authentic materials are mixed and edited and changed in the Bahai community (a process we can document because the various versions are documented), throws some light on the way the same process must have occured in the early Christian church. There’s a PhD there for someone: a comparison of the formation of oral and written traditions in the early Bahai and Christian communities.

To get back to your quote: I’ve done a text-critical analysis on my blog at
senmcglinn.wordpress.com/2009/05/22/consummate-union/.

This entry includes an image of the first published version, which you can lay alongside the version in the Promulgation of Universal Peace to prove to yourself that the editor of PUP altered the text and inserted his own ideas into it. But even before the changes, the text was not authentic, because it is English notes of what an interpreter said Abdu’l-Baha said. For Bahais, nothing is scripture unless we have an authenticated source document (signed, sealed, or otherwise proved), in the original language. That’s a very high standard of authenticity, a luxury Bahais can afford because we have so many scriptures that can be authenticated in this way

~~ Sen McGlinn
 
DavidMark said:
With political questions the clergy, however, have nothing to do! Religious matters should not be confused with politics in the present state of the world (for their interests are not identical). Religion concerns matters of the heart, of the spirit, and of morals. Politics are occupied with the material things of life. ~‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Paris Talks, p. 157
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I am afraid this is another unauthenticated text DavidMark. In this case we do have an authentic Persian original, in the form of notes that were taken as Abdu’l-Baha was talking, and which we may assume he checked and approved (that was his consistent practice; ideally one would get the original of this talk and check that he has initialled it). However what he says in the Persian notes is different to the various French and English versions of the talk. I’ve done a synoptic comparison of the versions in an appendix to my book Church and State (for sale at Amazon.com). The Persian text for this section says (in my translation) :
My intention, with these words, is not that religion (dīn) has any business in politics (siyāsat). Religion has no jurisdiction or involvement in political matters, for religion is related to spirits and to ecstasy, while politics relates to the body. Therefore the leaders of religions (ru’sā’-ye adyān) should not be involved in political matters, but should busy themselves with rectifying the morals of the community (mellat). They admonish, and excite the desire and appetite for piety. They sustain the morals of the community. They give spiritual understanding to the souls. They teach the [religious] sciences, but they have no involvement with political matters, for all time (abadan). Baha’u’llah has commanded this. In the Gospels it is said, “Render to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.”
But the intention was this: in Iran the righteous Bahai officials pay the closest attention to justice because they fear the wrath of God, and hope for the mercy of God. However there are others who have no scruples at all …
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Sen
 
O friend! Be set aglow with the fire of the love of God,
so that the hearts of the people will become enlightened by the light of thy love.

Supplicate to God, pray to Him and invoke Him at midnight and at dawn.
Be humble and submissive to God and chant the verses of thanksgiving at morn and eve,

for that He guided thee unto the Manifest Light and showed to thee the straight Path
and destined to thee the station of nearness in His wonderful Kingdom.
('Abdu’l-Bahá, Baha’i World Faith, p. 359)
 
DavidMark said:
Examine the wondrous behaviour of the Prophets, and recall the defamations and denials uttered by the children of negation and falsehood
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It seems rather hazardous to generalize, David. Some people of good faith may be convinced they are dealing with a false prophet from one thing he says that doesn’t seem to fit with the usual kind of such messages. You have to know that you are not obligated to believe someone just because he claims to speak on behalf of God Almighty. Even those uttering the message may at times be deceived. Not all of them know their prophesy is false when they utter it. Even those committed to do God’s will may at times be the ones uttering a false prophesy without their knowing it.
 
Lapell said:
It seems rather hazardous to generalize, David. Some people of good faith may be convinced they are dealing with a false prophet from one thing he says that doesn’t seem to fit with the usual kind of such messages. You have to know that you are not obligated to believe someone just because he claims to speak on behalf of God Almighty. Even those uttering the message may at times be deceived. Not all of them know their prophesy is false when they utter it. Even those committed to do God’s will may at times be the ones uttering a false prophesy without their knowing it.
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Lapell,

I think David probably knows already that…

You have to know that you are not obligated to believe someone just because he claims to speak on behalf of God Almighty

One of the things about the Baha’i revelation is that it is well into historic times and people from various perspectives have had plenty of time to test and know it pretty well…at least there are historical records that well document the lives of say the Bab and Baha’u’llah and by studying Their Writings one can reach their own conclusions.

A fundamental teaching of the Baha’i Faith is not to take some one’s word for it (relying on mere authority alone) but to independently investigate the Faith and it’s teachings so I’m pretty sure David has already done that. I know I did and my investigation took some years.😉
 
This teaching was, and still is, also fundamental in the Catholic Faith and probably in Judaism also.
 
Remember the criteria given by Deuteronomy. It is one of several that the Bible gives us, as well as several signs Christ mentioned, when asked about His return.

Bahá’u’lláh is the One “you shall heed”, with the true spirit of prophecy, as specified in Deuteronomy 18:22 **“…when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word which the Lord has not spoken”. **

Upon His arrival in prison [the Turkish fortress of ‘Akká] He addressed an epistle to Napoleon III, [nephew of Bonaparte] which He sent through the French ambassador. The gist of it was, “Ask what is Our crime, and why We are confined in this prison and this dungeon.” Napoleon made no reply. Then a second epistle was issued, which is contained in the Suriy-i-Haykal. [Book of the Temple] The epitome of it is: “Oh Napoleon, as thou hast not listened to My proclamation, and as thou hast not answered it, thy dominion will before long be taken away from thee, and thou wilt be utterly destroyed.” This epistle was sent to Napoleon by post, through the care of Cesar Ketaphakou, as was known to all the companions of His exile. The text of this warning reached the whole of Persia, for it was at that time that the Kitáb-i-Haykal was spread in Persia, and this epistle was among the contents of this book. This happened in A.D. 1869, and as this Suriy-i-Haykal was circulated in Persia and India and was in the hands of all believers, they were waiting to see what would come to pass.
Not long after, in A.D. 1870, the war between Germany and France broke out; and though no one at that time expected the victory of Germany, Napoleon was defeated and dishonored; he surrendered to his enemies, and his glory was changed into deep abasement. (‘Abdu’l-Bahá, SAQ, p. 32)
 
Here is another one of the prophecies, addressed to a king in 1873:
“O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory.” (Kitab-i-Aqdas, #90)

Now could someone explain to me why it is He wrote that from Akko, in ‘the name of the Lord’, and we should forget God’s instruction in Deuteronomy?
You cannot dismiss it, because true prophecy is a rational pre-condition to acceptance with faith. We should pray not to dismiss them; if one does so, they have charged God with imposture, and are afflicted with the disease of spiritual blindness. And according to the law of reciprocity, God will do to them, that which they themselves are doing: if they dismiss God, He will dismiss them.
 
Here is another example:

Matthew 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
In 1868, Pope Pius IX was addressed by Bahá’u’lláh, in a passage reminiscent of the parable of Christ, in which a treasure is discovered and the man sold all he had to possess it!

**Sell all the embellished ornaments thou dost possess, and expend them in the path of God, Who causeth the night to return upon the day, and the day to return upon the night. Abandon thy kingdom unto the kings, and emerge from thy habitation, with thy face set towards the Kingdom, and, detached from the world, then speak forth the praises of thy Lord betwixt earth and heaven. Thus hath bidden thee He Who is the Possessor of Names, on the part of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Knowing. Exhort thou the kings and say: ‘Deal equitably with men. Beware lest ye transgress the bounds fixed in the Book.’ **(Summons of the Lord of Hosts)

Two years later, in 1870, Victor Emmanuel II forcibly took the Papal domains from the Papacy; and since that time, the Popes have ‘emerged’ from their habitation, and ‘exhorted’ the kings and rulers to be equitable!
They have yet to sacrifice ornaments or themselves in the ‘path of God’.

“Well might the Sovereign Pontiff recall the reign of the most powerful among his predecessors, Innocent III who, during the eighteen years of his pontificate, raised and deposed the kings and the emperors, whose interdicts deprived nations of the exercise of Christian worship, at the feet of whose legate the King of England surrendered his crown, and at whose voice the fourth and the fifth crusades were both undertaken.
Might not the process, to which reference has already been made, manifest, in the course of its operation, during the tumultuous years in store for mankind, and in this same domain, a commotion still more devastating than it has yet produced” (Shoghi Effendi, The Promised Day is Come, p. 54)

Three examples should be enough to emphasize the fact that some prophets you should heed!
 
Hi Lapell!
Another “crucial” criteria is this one:

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. (1 John 4:2 & 3 KJV) [Baha’u’llah’s Testimonies to Christ are as natural as Christ’s Testimonies to Moses.]

Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.
We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified. (Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 85)

The Hour which We had concealed from the knowledge of the peoples of the earth and of the favoured angels hath come to pass. Say: verily, He hath testified of Me, and I do testify of Him. Indeed, He hath purposed no one other than Me. Unto this beareth witness every fair-minded and understanding soul. (Tablet to the Christians, Tablets of Baha’u’llah, p. 11)
 
Here is an unavoidable proof, even for “Badi1919” who wallows in lies:

Ye **shall **know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye **shall **know them. (Matthew 7:16-20)
[So what are the fruits? Notice Jesus repeats that you SHALL know them by this test.]

**This teaching is of the Spirit, in it is no precept which is not of the Divine Spirit. **
(‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Paris Talks, p. 85)

What has Azal given for the re-organization of the nations?
What did Joseph Smith anticipate in the Latter Days except the Coming of the Lord?
What can the Catholic Church or Islam do that they haven’t already tried for 1500 years?

Bahá’u’lláh abrogated military jihad, but this message was ignored by Muslim teachers, and you still have Muslims thinking they should kill someone. The ones who don’t still think their way is the only way forever.

And if thou dwellest in the land of testimony, content thyself with that which He, Himself, hath revealed:
**“Is it not enough for them that We have sent down unto Thee the Book?” **[Qur’án 29:51]
This is the testimony which He, Himself, hath ordained; greater proof than this there is none, nor ever will be: “This proof is His Word; His own Self, the testimony of His truth.” (Bahá’u’lláh, Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 91)
 
Well there have been many attempts over the past hundred and fifity or so years to destabilize or divide the friends and some by persons very close to the Faith but none have succeeded… So that in itself I think is a kind of proof if you will that the Faith is meant to be united and is standing the “test of time.”
 
Well said, Arthra!

One might expect this prophecy to refer to Jesus:
Isaiah 40:9 **O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God! **40:10 Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.
–but similar prophecies were given after Jesus:
Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

“And in the mighty Qur’án (2:206): **“What can such expect but that God should come down to them overshadowed with clouds?” **(Bahá’u’lláh, ESW, p. 111)

Take heed lest ye be prevented by aught that hath been recorded in the Book
from hearkening unto this, the Living Book,
Who proclaimeth the truth:
“Verily, there is no God but Me, the Most Excellent, the All-Praised.”
Look ye with the eye of equity upon Him
Who hath descended from the heaven of Divine will and power,
and be not of those who act unjustly.
(Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 67)
 
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