"The Baha'i Faith"

[Wahid_Azal]

The above is a classic example of Sen McGlinn’s contortionist style of neo-liberal intellectual obscurantism and disengenuity. I draw your attention to the following uhj letter which actually uses the phrase “theocracy” culled directly from the writings of Shoghi Effendi about the aims of the Bahai system. Note their own transparent contortionisms as well:

bahai-library.com/uhj/theocracy.html

THE UNIVERSAL HOUSE OF JUSTICE

BAHA’I WORLD CENTRE

Department of the Secretariat 27 April 1995

Dear Baha’i Friend,

Your email of 19 February 1995 addressed to the Research Department was referred to the Universal House of Justice. In it you quote two phrases which appear in a book you have recently read, and which seem from the context to be citations from Shoghi Effendi. These phrases are "Baha'i theocracy" and "humanity will emerge from the immature civilization in which church and state are separate". You ask whether these references can be authenticated and dated. We have been instructed to send you the following reply.

A reference to “Baha’i theocracy” is to be found in a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual Baha’i on 30 September 1949. This reads as follows:

He thinks your question is well put: what the Guardian was referring to was the theocratic systems, such as the Catholic Church and the Caliphate, which are not divinely given as systems, but man-made, and yet, being partly derived from the teachings of Christ and Muhammad are in a sense theocracies. The Baha'i theocracy, on the contrary, is both divinely ordained as a system and, of course, based on the teachings of the Prophet Himself.

The other passage does not comprise words of Shoghi Effendi, although its purport was approved by him. As you yourself have since discovered, it can be found in The Baha’i World, volume VI, on page 199, in a statement entitled “concerning Membership in Non-Baha’i Religious Organizations”, about which the Guardian’s secretary had written on his behalf on 11 December 1935: “The Guardian has carefully read the copy of the statement you had recently prepared concerning non-membership in non-Baha’i religious organizations, and is pleased to realize that your comments and explanations are in full conformity with his views on the subject.”

The complete paragraph in which the words appear is as follows:

In the light of these words, it seems fully evident that the way to approach this instruction is in realizing the Faith of Baha'u'llah as an every-growing organism destined to become something new and greater than any of the revealed religions of the past. Whereas former Faiths inspired hearts and illumined souls, they eventuated in formal religions with an ecclesiastical organization, creeds, rituals and churches, while the Faith of Baha'u'llah, likewise renewing man's spiritual life, will gradually produce the institutions of an ordered society, fulfilling not merely the function of the churches of the past but also the function of the civil state. By this manifestation of the Divine Will in a higher degree than in former ages, humanity will emerge from that immature civilization in which church and state are separate and competitive institutions, and partake of a true civilization in which spiritual and social principles are at last reconciled as two aspects of one and the same Truth.

You also ask how these statements could be reconciled with Shoghi Effendi’s comment on page 149 of Baha’i Administration, which appears to anticipate “a future that is sure to witness the formal and complete separation of Church and State”, and with the following words in his letter of 21 March 1932 addressed to the Baha’is of the United States and Canada:

Theirs is not the purpose, while endeavoring to conduct and perfect the administrative affairs of their Faith, to violate, under any circumstances, the provisions of their country's constitution, much less to allow the machinery of their administration to supersede the government of their respective countries.

A careful reading of the letter dated 6 December 1928 in which the Guardian’s comment about the separation of Church and State occurs would suggest that, rather than enunciating a general principle, Shoghi Effendi is simply reviewing “the quickening forces of internal reform” that had “recently transpired throughout the Near and Middle East”, and enumerating a number of factors that impinge on the development of the Faith in those parts of the world.

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

See my previous post about the refusal to engage in any debates beyond Baha’i basics.

I searched the thread on “basics” and found no other references to “basics”, and I searched back quite a long way for your questions, and found answers to them. Can you give me a post number or page number to the question you are referring to? I am about to leave for a couple of months travel, but I will answer or point you towards a source if I know one.

 

[arthra]

I had a few comments to make on the lesser peace issue…and will hopefully place it in context of the Baha’i perspective… these are my own observations…

First in our view Baha’u’llah in 1868-1870 sent Tablets to the powerful rulers of the Middle East and Europe recommending to them establishing a representative world parliament and international court of arbitration to resolve disputes… that would mean reducing armaments and lowering taxes… for the most part these recommendations were ignored.

Baha’u’llah then stated that since they ignored the summons for world peace they would not see the Most Great Peace but only a political peace or lesser peace…

Thus WWI and later WWII in the twentieth century…

The end of WWII saw the establishment of the UN.

Wars since WWII have been largely restricted to comparatively small regions…

After the collapse of the Soviet Union the likelihood of large areas with vast armies involved in war as in the past two world wars is less and less likely. There’s even a name for wars today called “brush-fire fires”.

The last military draft in the US ended after the Vietnam War.

Future warfare it is believed will be more restricted to technological weapons that required fewer troops and those troops will be more highly trained in technology than even today… We do have terrorists and pirates but these are not anything like the great land mass wars of the Twentieth century when millions died and vast armies were involved.

What we have to day is a world body the United Nations along with an International Court of Arbitration… which is a lot closer to the proposals of Baha’u’llah in 1868-1871 than ever… The adoption of a world currency is seriously being considered… If you have an interest I’d recommend reading the Summons of the Lord of Hosts which is available in print and on line…

• Art.

 

[NoWings]

I searched the thread on “basics” and found no other references to “basics”, and I searched back quite a long way for your questions, and found answers to them. Can you give me a post number or page number to the question you are referring to? I am about to leave for a couple of months travel, but I will answer or point you towards a source if I know one.

…

The thread previously before that one, Sen. The one about Baha’i refusal to engage in any aggressive apologetics.

 

[NoWings]

Universal House of Justice:

By this manifestation of the Divine Will in a higher degree than in former ages, humanity will emerge from that immature civilization in which church and state are separate and competitive institutions, and partake of a true civilization in which spiritual and social principles are at last reconciled as two aspects of one and the same Truth.

Sorry, Sen. I’m in agreement with Wahid. This sounds like a theocracy to me.

 

[DavidMark]

Verily I say, such is the greatness of this Cause
that the father flieth from his son, and the son flieth from his father.
Call ye to mind the story of Noah and Canaan.
God grant that, in these days of heavenly delight,
ye may not deprive yourselves of the sweet savors of the All-Glorious God,
and may partake, in this spiritual Springtime, of the outpourings of His grace.
(Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 84)

Had Abraham attained it, He too, falling prostrate upon the ground,
and in the utmost lowliness before the Lord thy God, would have cried:
“Mine heart is filled with peace, O Thou Lord of all that is in heaven and on earth!
I testify that Thou hast unveiled before mine eyes all the glory of Thy power and the full majesty of Thy law!
I bear witness, moreover, that through Thy Revelation
the hearts of the faithful are well assured and contented.”
Had Moses Himself attained it, He, likewise, would have raised His voice saying:
“All praise be to Thee for having lifted upon me the light of Thy countenance
and enrolled me among them that have been privileged to behold Thy face!”
(Bahá’u’lláh, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 149)

“The Most Great Law is come, and the Ancient Beauty ruleth upon the throne of David.
Thus hath My Pen spoken that which the histories of bygone ages have related.
At this time, however, David crieth aloud and saith:
‘O my loving Lord! Do Thou number me with such as have stood steadfast in Thy Cause,
O Thou through Whom the faces have been illumined, and the footsteps have slipped.’”
(The Promised Day is Come, p. 76)

“By the one true God, Elijah hath hastened unto My court
and hath circumambulated in the day-time and in the night-season My throne of glory.”
“Solomon in all his majesty circles in adoration around Me in this day,
uttering this most exalted word:
‘I have turned my face towards Thy face, O Thou omnipotent Ruler of the world!
I am wholly detached from all things pertaining unto me,
and yearn for that which Thou dost possess.’”
(Bahá’u’lláh, quoted in The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 105)

“I am the One, Whom the tongue of Isaiah hath extolled,
the One with Whose name both the Torah and the Evangel were adorned.”
"The glory of Sinai hath hastened to circle round the Day-Spring of this Revelation,
while from the heights of the Kingdom the voice of the Son of God is heard proclaiming:
‘Bestir yourselves, ye proud ones of the earth, and hasten ye towards Him.’
(Bahá’u’lláh, quoted in The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 105)

Muhammad, the Point of the Qur’án, revealed:
“I am all the Prophets.”“I am the first Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus.”
(Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 51)

Whoso acknowledged Him (Muhammad),
recognized the signs of God in His inmost Being,
and saw in His beauty the changeless beauty of God,
the decree of “resurrection”, “ingathering”, “life”,
and “paradise” was passed upon him.
(Bahá’u’lláh, Gems of Divine Mysteries, p. 41)

Had Muhammad, the Apostle of God, attained this Day,
He would have exclaimed:
“I have truly recognized Thee, O Thou the Desire of the Divine Messengers!”
(Bahá’u’lláh, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 149)

In His Qasídiy-i-Varqá’íyyih, an ode revealed during the days of His retirement to the mountains of Kurdistan, in praise of the Maiden personifying the Spirit of God recently descended upon Him, (Bahá’u’lláh) thus gives vent to the agonies of His sorrow-laden heart:
“Noah’s flood is but the measure of the tears I have shed,
and Abraham’s fire an ebullition of My soul.
Jacob’s grief is but a reflection of My sorrows,
and Job’s afflictions a fraction of my calamity.”
(Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 118)
[Bahá’u’lláh is quoting a highly appropriate verse from the Divan of Ibn-i-Farid.]

This Holy Land hath been mentioned and extolled in all the sacred Scriptures. In it have appeared the Prophets of God and His chosen Ones. This is the wilderness in which all the Messengers of God have wandered, from which their cry, “Here am I, here am I, O my God” was raised. This is the promised Land in which He Who is the Revelation of God was destined to be made manifest. (Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 344)

 

[DavidMark]

If a man be found willing to rear, in Our name, an edifice of pure gold or silver, or a house begemmed with stones of inestimable value, such a wish will no doubt be granted. He, verily, doeth what He willeth, and ordaineth that which He pleaseth. Leave hath, moreover, been given to whosoever may desire to raise, throughout the length and breadth of this land, noble and imposing structures, and dedicate the rich and sacred territories adjoining the Jordan and its vicinity to the worship and service of the one true God, magnified be His glory, that the prophecies recorded by the Pen of the Most High in the sacred Scriptures may be fulfilled, and that which God, the Lord of all worlds, hath purposed in this most exalted, this most holy, this mighty, and wondrous Revelation may be made manifest. We have, of old, uttered these words: Spread thy skirt, O Jerusalem! Ponder this in your hearts, O people of Bahá, and render thanks unto your Lord, the Expounder, the Most Manifest. (Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 116)

At one time We address the people of the Torah
and summon them unto Him Who is the Revealer of verses,
Who hath come from Him Who layeth low the necks of men…
At another, We address the people of the Evangel and say:
‘The All-Glorious is come in this Name
whereby the Breeze of God hath wafted over all regions.’…
At still another, We address the people of the Qur’án saying:‘Fear the All-Merciful, and cavil not at Him
through Whom all religions were founded.’…
Know thou, moreover, that We have addressed to the Magians* Our Tablets, and adorned them with Our Law…
We have revealed in them the essence of all
the hints and allusions contained in their Books.
The Lord, verily, is the Almighty, the All-Knowing.
(The Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 87)
*Zoroastrians, “Men of Rass” mentioned in the Qur’án.
“God hath sent down His Messengers to succeed to Moses and Jesus, and He will continue to do so till ‘the end that hath no end’; so that His grace may, from the heaven of Divine bounty, be continually vouchsafed to mankind.”
(Bahá’u’lláh, quoted in The World Order of Baha’u’llah, p. 116)

“He it is,Who in the Old Testament hath been named Jehovah, Who in the Gospel hath been designated as the Spirit of Truth, and in the Qur’án acclaimed as the Great Announcement.”

“But for Him no Divine Messenger would have been invested with the robe of prophethood, nor would any of the sacred scriptures have been revealed. To this bear witness all created things.” (Bahá’u’lláh, quoted in The World Order of Baha’u’llah, p. 116)

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

Sorry, Sen. I’m in agreement with Wahid. This sounds like a theocracy to me.

The text is not an authentic Bahai teaching. It comes from anti-Bahai polemicist William Miller, in *The Baha’i Faith: Its history and teachings, *page 290. Miller says that Shoghi Effendi wrote these words and gives his source as the Baha’i World 1934-1936 (p. 199).

It’s a mischievious misrepresentation.

The words “humanity will emerge from that immature civilization in which church and state are separate and competitive institutions, and partake of a true civilization in which spiritual and social principles are at last reconciled as two aspects of one and the same Truth” appears in a statement issued by the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States, dated October 8 1935. It is published in Bahai World vol. 7, page 246, which is available from the Internet Archive. (It is also in Bahai World volume 6 on page 200). Miller has removed the words “and competitive institutions” and then attributed the statement to Shoghi Effendi, to support his claim that the Iranian government had well justified fears of a Bahai takeover (page 291). In fact Shoghi Effendi anticipated “the formal and complete separation of Church from State” specifically in Iran, and eventually everywhere, because this is anticipated in Baha’u’llah’s teachings.

See tinyurl.com/defendshoghieffendi for sources and a scan of Miller’s words

It’s because he does not scruple to tell downright lies, that Miller’s work is treated with great caution. You can use him to locate a source, but you always have to go back to the source to see whether he has altered it or has quoted it accurately.

 

[NoWings]

Good grief. For a religion that was supposed to have no schisms and to proclaim that backbiting is one of the most grevious offenses, there sure is a lot of dissension among its adherents.

Which basically means that it’s pretty much the same as the other religions of the world.

 

[Wahid_Azal]

The text is not an authentic Bahai teaching. It comes from anti-Bahai polemicist William Miller, in *The Baha’i Faith: Its history and teachings, *page 290. Miller says that Shoghi Effendi wrote these words and gives his source as the Baha’i World 1934-1936 (p. 199).

It’s a mischievious misrepresentation.

Yet another demonstration of the the depth of intellectual disengenuity/dishonesty of McGlinn, and Bahais in general, this time regarding Miller. The quote in question is authentic and is no wise misrepresented by Miller. If that were the case, pray tell, why would the universal house of pancakes deign to quote something directly that is purportedly a misrepresentation? That makes no sense, and neither does your bonneted bee.

It’s because he does not scruple to tell downright lies,

On the contrary. Those without scruples to tell downright lies and whitewash history, in this and other cases, are you Bahais. For all the dirt Douglas Martin swung Miller’s way, not once was an actual error of fact or citation imputed to Miller and his book. Instead innuendo, libel and defamation, sans actual substance and content, was the modus operandi of choice, like yours here. Face it, Sen, for all your pretensions to being a liberal academic, when all is said and done, you are a biased sectarian like the next Bahai, and here you have proven it.

Now don’t let the door hit you on the way out…

Wahid

 

[Wahid_Azal]

Good grief. For a religion that was supposed to have no schisms and to proclaim that backbiting is one of the most grevious offenses, there sure is a lot of dissension among its adherents.

Which basically means that it’s pretty much the same as the other religions of the world.

Nail, hammer and head

Wahid

 

[arthra]

Good grief. For a religion that was supposed to have no schisms and to proclaim that backbiting is one of the most grevious offenses, there sure is a lot of dissension among its adherents.

Which basically means that it’s pretty much the same as the other religions of the world.

The Faith has been around a hundred and sixty years and arose amidst many enemies in the Middle East so is there any wonder there would be those who oppose it?

Within the Faith itself there is more unanimity than in most religions that are split into denominations…

Yes many have attempted to divide the Faith but the attempts failed. Every major change that has occurred a few have opposed it but they failed to cause significant schisms. What you find on the Internet are a record of those failed attempts to divide the believers.

Also Baha’is are non-partisan for a reason I believe as it reduces the likelihood of tensions that are present in other groups…and cause strife and dissension.

• Art

 

[NoWings]

The Faith has been around a hundred and sixty years and arose amidst many enemies in the Middle East so is there any wonder there would be those who oppose it?

Within the Faith itself there is more unanimity than in most religions that are split into denominations…

Yes many have attempted to divide the Faith but the attempts failed. Every major change that has occurred a few have opposed it but they failed to cause significant schisms. What you find on the Internet are a record of those failed attempts to divide the believers.

Also Baha’is are non-partisan for a reason I believe as it reduces the likelihood of tensions that are present in other groups…and cause strife and dissension.

• Art

You can argue that the attempts failed, Art, but they did their damage before they went down in flames. Shoghi Effendi left no stated successor and the first Hands of the Cause had to CB one of their own (Remey) who used to be so true to the faith.

I mean, really… think about it. Baha’u’llah is supposed to be the Manifestation of God. You’d think that at least he could keep his family in line. His brother fought him, his son’s brother fought him, his grandson’s own parents fought him (granted, his aunt stayed the course), and by the end of just two generations, every single member of Baha’u’llah’s family were declared CBs.

Common sense is whispering to me that if Shoghi Effendi’s relatives fought him, and Abdul Baha’s brother fought him, and Baha’u’llah’s brother fought him, it would stand to reason that Baha’u’llah fought the other Babis to come out ahead on the declaration of the Coming One.

Strife and discord are leagues deep in that family.

 

[Rachel_Malloy]

This thread is now closed. Thanks to all who have participated.

God bless-

Rachel