They grow fast, I can tell you. My daughter just graduated from college. Keep her out of the heat today, crazzeto, or bring her to the NC mountains, where its cooler.
Jon
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Jon
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drywall
Guest
Because their faith is that they will recieve faith by hearing the Word of God, your faith is that they will receive faith by baptism. the bible never says that we recieve faith by baptism, only by hearing the word of God, Putting baptism before recieving faith is like putting the horse before the cart.
Most every verse in the bible that mentions baptism, mentions repent first, (repent and be baptized) We must first repent of your sins and turn to God before we are baptized. A infant can not repent because they haqve no knowledge of their sins
drywall
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crazzeto
Guest
Then Jesus was wrong to forgive the mans sins, based upon the faith of his friends who brought him to him… This is the only conclusion I can draw from your posting… But with regard to the effectatiousness of baptism:
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Cat_Herder
Guest
By requiring men to manifest faith as a precondition to salvation you’re the one putting the cart before the horse. That makes men the actors in their salvation.
Here, once again, is why “hearing the Word of God” is not the means of salvation.
C
crazzeto
Guest
drywall,
I should like to point out that you have not sufficiently addressed the question at hand.
If Christ can forgive the sins of this man, based upon his friends faith… Then where is the defect in infant baptism which relies upon the same principal. In baptism, we are washed clean of original (and should it exist, actual) sin. This can be the case whether the person being baptised is capable of expressing that faith themselves or not.
The bible shows this, it shows it very clearly. To try and paint this as a one time senario, just something Jesus did for one guy once, with an assumption that he probably had the faith anyway, or was probably supposed to be a calvinist is not to give God due credit. Anicdotes (which is what we reduce this scripture to if we so badly treat it) were not recorded in the scriptures. Rather, the core of what we need to know for salvation is there.
This story has implications for how we as Christians behave, it teaches us how infant baptism works. No less than this would give the scripture it’s due credit.
I should like to point out that you have not sufficiently addressed the question at hand.
If Christ can forgive the sins of this man, based upon his friends faith… Then where is the defect in infant baptism which relies upon the same principal. In baptism, we are washed clean of original (and should it exist, actual) sin. This can be the case whether the person being baptised is capable of expressing that faith themselves or not.
The bible shows this, it shows it very clearly. To try and paint this as a one time senario, just something Jesus did for one guy once, with an assumption that he probably had the faith anyway, or was probably supposed to be a calvinist is not to give God due credit. Anicdotes (which is what we reduce this scripture to if we so badly treat it) were not recorded in the scriptures. Rather, the core of what we need to know for salvation is there.
This story has implications for how we as Christians behave, it teaches us how infant baptism works. No less than this would give the scripture it’s due credit.
D
drywall
Guest
In other words Paul was wrong when he wrote in Roman 10;17 that faith comes by hearing the Word of God and how is someone going to hear the Word of God without a preacher (Baptist preacher that is)
I don’t don’t that infants receive faith by Baptism, but I certainly agree that faith comes by hearing. That is why I made the point in my last post that parent, godparents, the congregation of believers make the promise to bring them to hear the word.
Then why did Christ say to allow the children to come to Him, and forbid them not? And it is clear from scripture that entire households were baptized on the say-so (faith) of the head of the house.
As I mentioned above about entire households. It is also important that these words were said to adults. So, to adults, repent and be baptized. To heads-of-houses, bring your entire household to be baptized.
Jon
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Esto_Castus
Guest
I think that the fundamental difference in Catholic v. Baptist baptism lies with the doctrines of sin and regeneration and not so much the act itself. Please excuse my spotty understanding of Catholic doctrine, but to my understanding baptism is administered as an initial cleansing both effectual and symbolic of original, and if possible in an infant, actual sin. Which through the act of partaking of the other sacraments is then repeated. In my understanding the other sacraments are then administered at a later and more mature age when the child is able to discern what they are doing, but the sacraments are then taken throughout the Catholic believers life to continually impart the grace of God and the forgiveness of sin. I hope I am not completely misrepresenting my Catholic brothers and sisters here. Now the Baptist and indeed most Protestant denominations believe that sin was immediately and eternally forgiven once for all at the crucifixion. Baptist believers hold that one must simply accept this forgiveness through confessing to God that they are indeed sinful and in need of this forgiveness, and that it is only available through the sacrifice of God’s only begotten son Jesus. This is our mode of faith for salvation. We believe that regeneration is immediate and the now “reborn” believer is fully regenerated in the image of Christ, and capable of pleasing God and resisting sin. Now it gets tricky from here because there are several different brands of Baptist and some believe in the effectual effects of baptism and some hold that is it purely symbolic, but commanded by scripture none the less. The latter typically view it as the first act of obedience to Christ. From this point on it is believed that no further acts be performed to continue on in being forgiven. The other sacraments in Baptist churches are observed as purely symbolic as well.
As far as being born of water and the Spirit most Protestant theologians would argue that this means to be born naturally of your mother and again of the Holy Spirit in order to secure salvation, as the question posed was “How can I once more climb into the womb”.
Hope this wasn’t to confusing, I am doing three things at once.
As far as being born of water and the Spirit most Protestant theologians would argue that this means to be born naturally of your mother and again of the Holy Spirit in order to secure salvation, as the question posed was “How can I once more climb into the womb”.
Hope this wasn’t to confusing, I am doing three things at once.
C
Cat_Herder
Guest
[BIBLEDRB]Hebrews 10:26-29[/BIBLEDRB]
That’s incorrect for a number of reasons
Yes but they retain free will and thus salvation is conditional on not committing a mortal sin as noted by Paul above
So marriage is symbolic?
See above response
J
jlhargus
Guest
JL: I notice you have posted no scripture evidence for this statement. I must assume it’s an oral tradition outside scripture. I put it in bold print in your post. I would like to see some scriptural evidence.david_ruiz said:
JL: I honestly think, and I think you even know, your post is rambling, double talk. To hide the fact you can’t find scriptural evidence, that we are saved (born again) and receive the Holy Spirit when we FIRST BELIEVE. Most of what you post is your words making up what scripture does not say. It took several readings to make sense of it.david_ruiz said:
The thief had no opportunity to be baptized. Natural birth is a necessity, but not an absolute necessity, without exceptions. Even natural birth has exceptions. In exceptional cases the physician intervenes birthing by cesarean. In exceptional cases the Great Physician must intervene in our spiritual birth. The Holy Spirit can circumcise the heart of one who desires to do the will of God, by baptism of desire or blood. When the lack, of baptism by water, is thru no deliberate fault of their own, such as the thief on the cross. CONTINUED;david_ruiz said:
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jlhargus
Guest
JL: You post faith comes first to ask for salvation. Yet you say we are saved when we first BELIEVE. You contradict your own tradition. In the adult Faith comes first always. [Hb11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.] Faith life is conceived by the Holy Spirit thru the living seed of God’s word. Through an actual grace (outside the person) given by the Holy Spirit. When the heart is pierced. At that conception we have a decision to make, accept or reject, as God does not force. If we accept and repent being baptized, then we are delivered, as a babe in Christ, being born again by water and the Spirit in baptism, Jn3:5. How were people saved after Christ ascended and the Holy Spirit decended at Pentecost?david_ruiz said:
[Acts2:37 Now when **they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the remission of sins, and ye shall RECEIVE the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For THE PROMISE is unto you, AND to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.] Acts2:37-39 gives a simple and concise example how people are saved including children. Yet you reject it’s clear teaching to hold a tradition of men. Acts2:37-38 tells us in TWO VERSES. You can’t give evidence for your tradition, with any amount of scripture, because it’s unbiblical. What happened to those who received the Word?
[Acts2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, **SAVE YOURSELVES **from the untoward generation. 41 Then **THEY that gladly RECEIVED his word WERE BAPTIZED **: and the SAME DAY were **ADDED UNTO THEM **about three thousand souls. 42 And **THEY CONTINUED stedfastly IN THE APOSTLES’ DOCTRINE and FELLOWSHIP, and in BREADKING OF BREAD, and in PRAYERS **.] Notice Peter says SAVE YOURSELVES. How? By being BAPTIZED to receive the Holy Spirit, by which they WERE ADDED to that ONE VISIBLE Apostolic Fellowship the Church.] What did those people do to SAVE THEMSELVES? They were WATER BAPTIZED.
[1Pt3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, **eight souls were SAVED BY WATER. 21 THE LIKE FIGURE whereunto even BAPTISM doth also NOW SAVE US (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:] Notice SAVED BY WATER, the LIKE FIGURE BAPTISM, now saves us.
RM 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were batptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up FROM THE DEAD by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in NEWNESS OF LIFE. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that OUR OLD MAN is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
[Col2:12 Buried with him **IN BAPTISM, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of THE OPERATION OF GOD, who hath RAISED him FROM THE DEAD.] Notice thru the operation (action) of God in BAPTISM we are raised FROM THE DEAD.] The soul is regenerated receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit.
[Titus3:5 **Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to HIS MERCY he SAVED US BY the WASHING OF REGENERATION, and RENEWING OF THE HOLY GHOST; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being JUSTIFIED by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.] Scripture tells us we are WASHED in BAPTISM, Acts22:16 To become a child of God we must be BORN AGAIN. How does scripture tell us we become a child of God and are justified?
1Cor6:11 And such were some of you: but YE ARE WASHED, but ye are SANCTIFIED, but ye are JUSTIFIED in the name of the Lord Jesus, and **.] Scripture tells us we are washed in baptism, Acts22:16 and receive the Holy Spirit in baptism, Acts2:38 & Acts19:2-5.
[Gal3:25 For YE ARE all the CHILDREN OF GOD by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For AS MANY** of you AS HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED into Christ have put on Christ.]
When St Paul ran into some disciples at Ephesus [Acts19:2 and asked them, **DID YOU RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT WHEN YOU BELIEVED? They answered, NO, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit. 3 So Paul asked,… **WHAT BAPTISM DID YOU RECEIVE? John’s baptism, they replied. 4 Paul said, JOHN’S baptism WAS A BAPTISM OF REPENTANCE. He told the people TO BELIEVE IN THE ONE COMING after him, THAT IS, in JESUS. 5 … HEARING THIS, THEY WERE BAPTIZED INTO THE NAME of the Lord JESUS. Note, John’s baptism required repentance and faith (believe) in the one to come. Yet faith nor John’s baptism saved. They needed the SACRAMENT of Christ’s baptism.
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jlhargus
Guest
JL: So you are now telling us no one, including the apostles, was saved till the Holy Spirit came on them a Pentecost? [1Cor12:13 For **BY ONE SPIRIT ARE WE ALL BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY, WHETHER we be JEWS OR GENTILES, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.] I don’t find your, oral tradition of men, credentials for gentiles in scripture.david_ruiz said:
Cornelius and household were the first Gentiles to become Christian. They were given the GIFT of speaking in tongues. This does not mean they were, as you say SAVED with the indwelling Holy Spirit. In the OT a donkey was given the gift to speak. That does not mean he was saved and had the indwelling Holy Spirit. [2Pt2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Boor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: **the dumb *** (donkey) speaking with man’s voice forbad the madness of the prophet.] The donkey spoke with a man’s voice by an actual grace gift of tongues The donkey was NOT indwelled by the Holy Spirit with habitual grace. The same with Cornelius, that’s why he was baptized to receive habitual grace the indwelling Holy Spirit.
The indwelling comes by water baptism after their sins are washed away, Acts2:37-38. The gift of speaking in tongues was given as a sign. So Peter, along with those Jewish Christians with him would realize God now accepts uncircumcised Gentiles. [Acts11:9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.] That vision and speaking in tongues is why they were not first circumcised and then baptized.
JL: Yes only a regenerated, born again soul can retain salvation. Notice the beginning of Isa64:6 ALL OF US HAVE BECOME LIKE SOMETHING UNCLEAN.david_ruiz said:
[Isa64:5 YOU come to the HELP of **THOSE who gladly DO RIGHT, WHO REMEMBER YOUR WAYS. BUT WHEN WE CONTINUED TO SIN against them, you were angry. How then can we be saved? 6 ALL OF US have BECOME LIKE ONE who is UNCLEAN, and ALL OUR RIGHTEOUS ACTS ARE LIKE FILTHY RAGS; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind OUR SINS SWEEP US AWAY. 7 NO ONE CALLS ON YOUR NAME or strives to lay hold of you; for you have hidden your face from us and made us waste away BECAUSE OF OUR SINS.]
I would guess the vast majority of Protestants who quote Is64:6 have never once read anymore than verse six. Most probably haven’t even looked up verse six at all. They HEARD it preached and simply believe and pass it on, in an oral tradition of men, made a doctrine of God, from generation to generation. Teaching ALL WORKS, whether in GRACE (saved) or SIN (unsaved), are as filthy rags before God. I heard it preached when I was Protestant. It’s ridiculous.
The reason their righteous acts are like a polluted garment, or filthy rags, is because they were done in a state of sin. They had gone astray, were unfaithful to God. Living in a state of sin when they did those works. Their righteous acts were polluted by their sins. Righteous works are pleasing to God if we are in a state of grace (friendship with God). There is no reward (merit) for works, no matter how good, done in a state of sin (enmity with God). [Jer 17:10 I THE LORD SEARCH THE HEART and examine the mind, to reward a man according to HIS CONDUCT, according to what his DEEDS deserve.] Scripture tells us many times we will be judged by our DEEDS.
In a state of grace (saved) good deeds exercises faith making faith and God’s grace grow and increase in the faithful believer. [Eph2:10 For WE ARE his workmanship, CREATED in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS, which GOD hath before ORDAINED that WE should WALK IN THEM.] It is totally ridiculous to say, we are God’s workmanship created in Christ to walk in good works, which God himself has prepared and given the grace for those IN CHRIST to do. Then say they are as filthy rags before God. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=576979&page=6 David I have posted my reply to you last three post on baptism on the above line.
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Zooey
Guest
My goodness! I was just reading my bible when I opened to the following verse, and then here I came into this thread. Do you think maybe the Holy Spirit had something to do with it??
Luke18:15-17
People were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them, and when the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. Jesus, hoever, called the children to himself and said, “Let the children come to me and do not prevent them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Amen, I say to you, whoever does not accept the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it.”
In the this verse, people were BRINGING INFANTS, people who cannot make a conscious choice, to be touched by Jesus. Jesus didn’t tell the mothers to wait until their babies could repent of their own free will before he’d touch them.
Do you think that perhaps with the misunderstanding of who can and cannot be baptised that some non-catholics are preventing their children from coming to Jesus? Jesus says do NOT prevent them…
Now remember also… that people were bringing WHOLE households to be baptised, it seems to me that considering there wasn’t too much contraception in those days, there would be infants included in the household.
P
pkrjenkins
Guest
As a former Southern Baptist I would like to add that some Baptist churches do not accept other church’s baptisms. For example if you were baptized as a Presbyterian and later wanted to join the Baptist church, they would require that you be ‘re-baptized’ in their church. This is one of the reasons I left the Baptists. I was baptized for my redemption and to follow Christ, not make a group of people satisfied . Happily, I have read that this practice is changing, as it should. I was very pleasantly surprised to find that the Catholic Church accepts any valid baptism.
J
jlhargus
Guest
JL: Yes obvious things, Nicodemus as a teacher should have known. He and everyone certainly knew a person MUST first EXIST in order to be born AGAIN. Any child for that matter, with reason, would not need that explained. As a spiritual leader Nicodemus should have known OT scripture. He should have connected being born of water AND of the Spirit with OT prophecy.david_ruiz said:
Ez 36:24 FOR I WILL TAKE YOU FROM AMONG THE HEATHEN, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 THEN WILL I SPRINKLE CLEAN WATER UPON YOU, and YE SHALL BE CLEAN: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, I WILL CLEANSE YOU. 26 A NEW HEART also WILL I GIVE YOU, and A NEW SPIRIT WILL I PUT WITHIN YOU: and I WILL TAKE AWAY THE STONY HEART out of your flesh, and I WILL GIVE YOU AN HEART OF FLESH. 27 And ** I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU**, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and YE SHALL KEEP MY JUDGMENTS, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and YE SHALL BE MY PEOPLE, and I WILL BE YOUR GOD.
Zech12:10 And I WILL POUR UPON THE HOUSE OF DAVID, and UPON THE INHABITANTS OF JERUSALEM, THE SPIRIT OF GRACE and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zech13:1 IN THAT DAY THERE SHALL BE A FOUNTAIN OPENED TO THE HOUSE OF DAVID and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem FOR SIN AND for UNCLEANNESS.
I will sprinkle clean WATER upon you, and ye shall be clean, I will put my SPIRIT WITHIN YOU.
In Jn3:5 Jesus said EXCEPT born of WATER AND of the SPIRIT.
Act2:38 be baptized for remission of sins, RECEIVE the gift of the Holy Spirit.
As a teacher of Israel Nicodemus should have connected being born of water AND of the Spirit with those OT scriptures. That’s why Jesus was surprised a master of Israel wouldn’t know these things. [Jn3:9 NICODEMUS answered and SAID unto him, HOW CAN THESE THINGS BE? 10 JESUS ANSWERED and said unto him, **ART THOU A MASTER OF ISRAEL, AND KNOWEST NOT THESE THINGS?] Nicodemus or anyone not knowing one must FIRST EXIST before they can be BORN AGAIN would have to be a complete moron.
Evidently some masters in the Sanhedrin knew water baptism was to be done by the Messiah (Christ). Because they sent some priests and Levites to John the Baptist, who was baptizing with WATER. [Jn1:19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?] They asked IF he was Elijah, the Messiah or the Prophet. They connected water baptism with those OT prophecies. [Jn1:25 And they asked him, and said unto him, **WHY BAPTIZEST THOU then, IF THOU BE NOT THAT CHRIST, nor Elias, neither that prophet?]
JL: Correct those two scriptures do NOT contradict each other. No scripture contradicts another ever. But you haven’t NOR CAN YOU post ANY SCRIPTURE telling us baptism IS a confession of faith only. Baptism as a CONFESSION of faith ONLY does CONTRADICT several scriptures such as Acts2:38, 1Pt3:21.david_ruiz said:
If baptism is that confession then baptism is MUCH MORE than a CONFESSION of faith ONLY. [Acts2:37 Now **WHEN THEY HEARD this, THEY WERE PRICKED IN THEIR HEART, AND SAID unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, WHAT SHALL WE DO? 38 Then PETER SAID unto them, REPENT, and BE BAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS, and ye shall RECEIVE the gift of THE HOLY GHOST. The PROMISE is unto you, AND to your CHILDREN,] I see you are unable to fine a scripture telling us baptism is a confession ONLY. You can’t because it’s not found in scripture.
[Acts22:16 And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and **BE BAPTIZEDWASH AWAY THY SINS.] The Lord’s baptism is a SACRAMENT giving grace. Baptism remits and washes away our sins, and we RECEIVE the gift of the Holy Spirit. That’s MUCH MORE than a so called confession of faith only. Your tradition is NOT FOUND in scripture. It’s evident you can’t post any scripture for that oral tradition men.
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jlhargus
Guest
JL Original post: Quote:"REPENT and be baptized, and you shall receive the Holy Ghost "
[Acts2:38 Then **PETER SAID unto them, REPENT, and BE BAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS, and ye shall RECEIVE the gift of THE HOLY GHOST. The PROMISE is unto you, AND to your CHILDREN, ] So do you say infants are auto saved a birth?
Peter tells us, 1Pt 1:23 For YOU HAVE BEEN BORN AGAIN, NOT OF PERISHABLE SEED, but of imperishable, THROUGH the LIVING and enduring WORD OF GOD. The word of God would be akin to the SEED of man and the heart the egg, once the word penetrates the heart faith is conceived. INatural life must first be conceived, thru the SEED of man and the EGG of woman. We are not born at that instant but latter we are born of that SEED after we are formed.
Quote: JL: Lk 18:42 most translations use, healed, well, whole. Lk7:50 The woman had faith before she arrived. Now she is acting on that faith in love. Showing repentance thru her tears and acts of love. The faith that comes by an actual (not indwelling) grace of the Holy Spirit. [Lk7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, HER SINS, which are many, are FORGIVEN; for she LOVED much: …… 48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.] Yes her faith saved her because she acted on that faith in love. Faith alone is dead, Jms2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
JL: Original Quote: .According to your tradition she was saved when she first BELIEVED and had the indwelling Holy Spirit.
[Titus 3:5 NOT BY WORKS of righteousness…we have done BUT **BY HIS MERCY he SAVED us BY the WASHING of REGENERATION and RENEWING OF THE HOLY GHOST]
How does scripture tell us we are washed? [Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and BE BAPTIZED, and WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord.]
1Cor6:11 And such were some of you. But YOU WERE WASHED you were SANCTIFIED, you were JUSTIFIED in the NAME of the Lord JESUS Christ AND in the SPIRIT OF OUR GOD.
JL: One must believe in order to repent. Hear the Word, believe, repent, be baptized for remission of sins, receive the Holy Spirit. Could you point out in my above original quote where I excluded REPENT? It’s the first word in my above quote in caps.david_ruiz said:
[Acts2:38 Then **PETER SAID unto them, REPENT, and BE BAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS, and ye shall RECEIVE the gift of THE HOLY GHOST. The PROMISE is unto you, AND to your CHILDREN, ] So do you say infants are auto saved a birth?
JL: Because they were not ready to make the commitment and chose to remain unbaptized. I can’t read hearts so how would I know. I chose to put off baptism for years, although I believed. Yet I didn’t REPENT because I wanted to continue in sin. I wanted to wait till I was an old man.david_ruiz said:
JL: They are not spiritually dead their hearts have been pricked with the seed of God’s Word. Planted by the Holy Spirit when He pricked their heart, conceiving spiritual life. Catechumens are the good soil on which the seed is planted. They will be delivered a, new, BORN AGAIN babe of Christ when they are Baptized.david_ruiz said:
Peter tells us, 1Pt 1:23 For YOU HAVE BEEN BORN AGAIN, NOT OF PERISHABLE SEED, but of imperishable, THROUGH the LIVING and enduring WORD OF GOD. The word of God would be akin to the SEED of man and the heart the egg, once the word penetrates the heart faith is conceived. INatural life must first be conceived, thru the SEED of man and the EGG of woman. We are not born at that instant but latter we are born of that SEED after we are formed.
JL: That practice was restored after Vatican II, it’s called RCIA. Catechumen classes for adult converts last about six months. Some have been baptized some have never been baptized. They attend mass, together with their sponsors, hear the Word of God read, and sermon. They are then dismissed before the liturgy of the Eucharist. They go to a class room to discuss the scripture readings of that Sunday or some other subject or both. When they are formed they are baptized, on Holy Saturday night, before Easter Sunday.david_ruiz said:
Quote: JL: Lk 18:42 most translations use, healed, well, whole. Lk7:50 The woman had faith before she arrived. Now she is acting on that faith in love. Showing repentance thru her tears and acts of love. The faith that comes by an actual (not indwelling) grace of the Holy Spirit. [Lk7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, HER SINS, which are many, are FORGIVEN; for she LOVED much: …… 48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.] Yes her faith saved her because she acted on that faith in love. Faith alone is dead, Jms2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
JL: I notice you make a lot of statements and so called paraphrasing scripture, without any scripture. Can you post OT scripture showing that real OT regeneration, how and when it was brought about?david_ruiz said:
JL: Original Quote: .According to your tradition she was saved when she first BELIEVED and had the indwelling Holy Spirit.
JL: I’m looking forward to your scripture evidence for OT regeneration. When and how it was brought about. REGENERATION is NT brought about by baptism in giving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. How does scripture say we are regenerated in the NT?david_ruiz said:
[Titus 3:5 NOT BY WORKS of righteousness…we have done BUT **BY HIS MERCY he SAVED us BY the WASHING of REGENERATION and RENEWING OF THE HOLY GHOST]
How does scripture tell us we are washed? [Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and BE BAPTIZED, and WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord.]
1Cor6:11 And such were some of you. But YOU WERE WASHED you were SANCTIFIED, you were JUSTIFIED in the NAME of the Lord JESUS Christ AND in the SPIRIT OF OUR GOD.
J
jlhargus
Guest
JL: Quote: Even before Christ forgave her sins.
JL: Quote: Christ is God and can save anyway, anywhere, any time He wills. The normal way Christ left his Church to birth children was the sacrament of baptism.
[Gal 3:26 For YE ARE all the **CHILDREN OF GOD by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For AS MANY of you AS HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED into Christ HAVE PUT ON CHRIST.] How does scripture tell us we are regenerated?
[Titus 3:5 NOT BY WORKS of righteousness…we have done BUT **BY HIS MERCY he SAVED us BY the WASHING of REGENERATION and RENEWING OF THE HOLY GHOST]
Show me scripture for your tradition, which is not found in scripture. You are unable to post ANY SCRITURE evidence telling us baptism is a CONFESSION ONLY. By the way I thought that was altar call.
JL: Oringinal Quote: With your tradition when they heard, believed and asked what must we do.
[There is no question **we are saved by God’s grace, that free gift of God. We HEAR the Word by God’s grace, FAITH is conceived by God’s grace, we accept by God’s grace (although we can reject that grace). We REPENT by God’s grace, we are BAPTIZED FOR remission of sins by God’s grace, we RECEIVE the Holy Spirit by God’s grace. The good works after baptism we do, by God’s grace, so NO MAN can boast. Baptism is God’s work, we can only do as God commands.
First the adult HEARS the Word, the Holy Spirit convects them (PRICKS THEIR HEART) conceiving supernatural FAITH life in them. They accept or reject that faith life. If accepted they are instructed what they must do. REPENT, be baptized, FOR remission of sins, and RECEIVE the HOLY SPIRIT. With baptism they are BORN AGAIN delivered a child of God, Acts2:37.
[Gal3:26 For **YE ARE ALL CHILDREN OF GOD BY FAITH in Christ Jesus. 27 For AS MANY OF YOU AS HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED into Christ have put on Christ.]
I now see why you NEVER post the actual scripture verses, because they wouldn’t agree with your post.
Repent means to trun from sin,it doesn’t mean BELIEVE. If you don’t believe what’s the point of repenting? What is there to repent from if you don’t believe? I believed long before I repented, yet I chose to continue in sin. God does not force us to repent. He does give us faith to believe and understanding to know we need to repent, yet we chose. Thank God for His great mercy in not giving up on me. He kept drawing me to himself. Finally I did repent.
I notice you didn’t finish quoting Peter. After he said BE BAPTIZED in the name of the Lord Jesus. He continued to say FOR REMISSION OF SINS. AND you shall RECEIVE the gift of the Holy Spirit. Did you leave that out and jumb to vs41, because in baptism our sins are remitted and washed away and we receive the Holy Spirit. That would contradict your tradition we receive the Holy Spirit when we first believe.
You post, How can one receive the gospel words unless a spiritual child? Answer; Thur the gift of faith that comes for the adult by hearing the Word and being open to truth so the Holy Spirit can prick the heart. The Holy Spirit pricks the heart with that seed of faith.
JL: So your now saying Christ absolved her twice for the same sins.david_ruiz said:
JL: Quote: Christ is God and can save anyway, anywhere, any time He wills. The normal way Christ left his Church to birth children was the sacrament of baptism.
JL: What is the normal way scripture tells us we become a child of God?david_ruiz said:
[Gal 3:26 For YE ARE all the **CHILDREN OF GOD by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For AS MANY of you AS HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED into Christ HAVE PUT ON CHRIST.] How does scripture tell us we are regenerated?
[Titus 3:5 NOT BY WORKS of righteousness…we have done BUT **BY HIS MERCY he SAVED us BY the WASHING of REGENERATION and RENEWING OF THE HOLY GHOST]
Show me scripture for your tradition, which is not found in scripture. You are unable to post ANY SCRITURE evidence telling us baptism is a CONFESSION ONLY. By the way I thought that was altar call.
JL: Oringinal Quote: With your tradition when they heard, believed and asked what must we do.
JL: Do you think Naahman, a leper 2Kgs5:1-26, EARNED HIS HEALING by doing as God commanded? Do you suppose Naahman would have had his skin regenerated had he dipped seven times in the water of a Syrian river instead of the Jordan as told by a prophet of God? No he would not have been healed if he had not done as commanded and dipped in the Jordan. Because God the Holy Spirit would not have acted thru the water of another river. Now God acts thru baptismal water. Acts2:38 says repent, be baptized for remission of sins, RECEIVE the gift of the HOLY SPIRIT.david_ruiz said:
[There is no question **we are saved by God’s grace, that free gift of God. We HEAR the Word by God’s grace, FAITH is conceived by God’s grace, we accept by God’s grace (although we can reject that grace). We REPENT by God’s grace, we are BAPTIZED FOR remission of sins by God’s grace, we RECEIVE the Holy Spirit by God’s grace. The good works after baptism we do, by God’s grace, so NO MAN can boast. Baptism is God’s work, we can only do as God commands.
First the adult HEARS the Word, the Holy Spirit convects them (PRICKS THEIR HEART) conceiving supernatural FAITH life in them. They accept or reject that faith life. If accepted they are instructed what they must do. REPENT, be baptized, FOR remission of sins, and RECEIVE the HOLY SPIRIT. With baptism they are BORN AGAIN delivered a child of God, Acts2:37.
[Gal3:26 For **YE ARE ALL CHILDREN OF GOD BY FAITH in Christ Jesus. 27 For AS MANY OF YOU AS HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED into Christ have put on Christ.]
I now see why you NEVER post the actual scripture verses, because they wouldn’t agree with your post.
Repent means to trun from sin,it doesn’t mean BELIEVE. If you don’t believe what’s the point of repenting? What is there to repent from if you don’t believe? I believed long before I repented, yet I chose to continue in sin. God does not force us to repent. He does give us faith to believe and understanding to know we need to repent, yet we chose. Thank God for His great mercy in not giving up on me. He kept drawing me to himself. Finally I did repent.
I notice you didn’t finish quoting Peter. After he said BE BAPTIZED in the name of the Lord Jesus. He continued to say FOR REMISSION OF SINS. AND you shall RECEIVE the gift of the Holy Spirit. Did you leave that out and jumb to vs41, because in baptism our sins are remitted and washed away and we receive the Holy Spirit. That would contradict your tradition we receive the Holy Spirit when we first believe.
You post, How can one receive the gospel words unless a spiritual child? Answer; Thur the gift of faith that comes for the adult by hearing the Word and being open to truth so the Holy Spirit can prick the heart. The Holy Spirit pricks the heart with that seed of faith.
J
jlhargus
Guest
JL: Original Quote: The word used for children would include infant up.
The promise is for YOU and YOUR CHILDREN, Acts2:37-39. THE PROMISE is to BOTH adult and children regardless of age. It’s as valid for one as the other. All humanity is born of flesh and can only be and must be BORN AGAIN OF GOD by water and the Spirit, thru supernatural birth in baptism. [Gal4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the CHILDREN OF PROMISE. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.] We are children of THE PROMISE, supernaturally born OF GOD, just as Isaac was supernaturally born OF GOD to a ninety year old. Jn1:13 Which were BORN, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but OF GOD.] By water and Spirit as our Lord tells us in Jn3:5.
JL: Wrong, the context may NOT exclude infants. The Greek word used for children is Teknon. It’s also used in Acts21:21 referring to circumcising children. Eight day old infants were circumcised. Why would the promise of the Holy Spirit be for infants if they couldn’t be baptized? The probability that there were households with infants baptized among those three thousand baptized at Pentecost is far greater than not one. These where Jewish people who’s male children had to be circumcised to enter the OT covenant. Baptism fulfills circumcision it also brings the baptized into the New Covenant.david_ruiz said:
The promise is for YOU and YOUR CHILDREN, Acts2:37-39. THE PROMISE is to BOTH adult and children regardless of age. It’s as valid for one as the other. All humanity is born of flesh and can only be and must be BORN AGAIN OF GOD by water and the Spirit, thru supernatural birth in baptism. [Gal4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the CHILDREN OF PROMISE. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.] We are children of THE PROMISE, supernaturally born OF GOD, just as Isaac was supernaturally born OF GOD to a ninety year old. Jn1:13 Which were BORN, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but OF GOD.] By water and Spirit as our Lord tells us in Jn3:5.
J
jlhargus
Guest
JL: Could you post OT scripture telling us when and how OT people where REGENERATED? Jewish children born of a Jewish woman are Jewish and under the OT covenant. Women were always under the protection of a male household covenant family. The male child had to be circumcised to enter the covenant, or he was cut off from his people.david_ruiz said:
GEN 17:10 This is my covenant which you shall keep between me and you and your seed after you… Every man child among you shall be circumcised. 12…HE THAT IS EITHT DAYS OLD SAHLL BE CIRCUMCISED 14 …THE UNCIRCUMCISED MAN CHILD whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised THAT SOUL SHALL BE CUT OFF FROM HIS PEOPLE he hath BROKEN my covenant. Old Testament circumcision is not the same as baptism, although it did bring the circumcised into covenant family relationship with God, as does baptism. Circumcision made men members of the People of Israel, therefore the people of God.
Well if we agree that baptism IS a SACRMENT then we also MUST agree baptism is NOT a CONFESSION ONLY. A sacrament gives grace. The grace baptism gives is remitting and washing away our sins and we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Your oral tradition of men that we are born again and receive the Holy Spirit when we first believe, is the tradition that needs to be overcome. Acts2:37-39 clearly contradict your tradition. Your tradition isn’t in scripture you can’t post scripture telling us that.
Acts2:37-39 tells us in BAPTISM our sins are remitted, washed away and we RECEIVE the gift of the Holy Spirit.
[Acts2:37 Now WHEN THEY HEARD this, THEY WERE PRICKED IN THEIR HEART, AND SAID unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, WHAT SHALL WE DO? 38 Then PETER SAID unto them, REPENT, and BE BAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS, and ye shall RECEIVE the gift of THE HOLY GHOST. The PROMISE is unto you, AND to your CHILDREN, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.]
First the adult hears the Word, that word pricks their heart and they believe. They then ask, What must we do? Peter said, REPENT, BE BAPTIZED FOR remission of sins, RECEIVE the gift of the Holy Spirit. Was Peter in error? With your tradition of men Peter should have said, Since you now believe you have been auto baptized and have already received the Holy Spirit. Now you can be baptized as a confession of that faith.
[Acts2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, **SAVE YOURSELVES from the untoward generation. 41 THEN they that gladly RECEIVED his word were BAPTIZED: and the SAME DAY were ADDED UNTO THEM about three thousand souls. 42 And THEY CONTINUED stedfastly IN THE APOSTLES’ doctrine and FELLOWSHIP, and in BREAKING OF BREAD (Mass), and in PRAYERS.] Notice Peter says SAVE YOURSELVES. How? By being BAPTIZED thru which they WERE ADDED to that ONE VISIBLE Apostolic Fellowship the Church.
ADD1Pt3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved BY WATER. 21 The LIKE FIGURE whereunto even BAPTISM doth also NOW SAVE US (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
[TITUS 3:5 NOT by WORKS…we’ve done BUT by **HIS MERCY he SAVED us BY the WASHING of REGENERATION and RENEWING of the HOLY SPIRIT 6 which he POURED OUT ON US richly THROUGH JESUS Christ our Savior 7 SO we might be JUSTIFIED BY his GRACE and become HEIRS…]
How does scripture tell us we are washed? Act22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and BE BAPTIZED, and WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord. How does scripture tell us we become a child of God?
[Gal 3:26 For YE ARE all the CHILDREN OF GOD by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For AS MANY of you **AS HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED into Christ HAVE PUT ON CHRIST.]
2Cor5:17 Therefore, if ANY ONE is IN CHRIST, he IS A NEW CREATION; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come.
Eph 4:22 PUT OFF THE OLD MAN that belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful lusts, 23 and BE RENEWED in the spirit of your minds, 24 and PUT ON THE NEW MAN, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.
The Sacrament of Baptism not only remits, washes and cleanses, of sins but regenerates our soul, by POURING OUT the Holy Spirit. That indwelling Holy Spirit, justifies us by his grace making us a child of God and heirs. In baptism the body is now dead to sin, whereas before the soul was dead, and slave to the flesh. Now the body (flesh) is subject to the regenerated soul, by the Holy Spirit indwelling. Now we no longer live in old Adam but are born again into the new Adam.
Jn3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee. EXCEPT a man be BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Jn3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, EXCEPT a man be BORN of water AND of the Spirit, he CANNOT ENTER into the KINGDOM OF GOD.
P
Publisher
Guest
The passage you cite in John was not referring to water baptism…Jesus was contrasting a phylical birth with a spiritual birth…“How can a man enter again into his mother’s womb…”…“Unless a man is born of water(physical birth from mother’s womb) and spirit…”Again, could you please explain how someone can be ‘born again of water and the Holy Spirit’ without being baptized?
You may not understand the passage in that manner…but many do…as do I.
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