The beauty of friendship

[ConfusedLucy]

I agree. By objectively superior, I’m talking about the state of life in general. Not “Marriage automatically gives a person superior status.”

I agree about pursuing holiness too. Sure I spent a good few years single myself. I’m no no way trying to diminish the lives of people who are single.

I think the problem is that some people do still see married people as better, especially with children. They are often seen as more settled, responsible and mature when none of things are exclusive to marriage.

When I think of the people who support me in my faith they are all friends. Friends can do so much for each other, building you up, supporting one another, praying together and for each other. Friendship can be a wonderful thing.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Not automatically, but marriage and all vocations are supposed to encourage one to be a better person.

Just to clarify, I’m not saying that married/consecrated people are superior to anyone else, but certain ways of life are considered “objectively superior”.

The traditional vocations, for want of a better term, all have in common that they require the permission of the church, a period of discernment, and vows or consecration that requires the people who are undertaking them to make certain sacrifices or to renounce certain freedoms.
Consecrated Virgins renounce the pleasure and intimacy of sex and marriage in order to imitate the life of Christ more closely.
Religious and Priests renounce career, family, and personal freedom in order to live their lives in the service of the Church.
Married persons renounce the freedom associated with single life in order to live their lives committed to one other person and serving them and the Church as laypeople. Marriage is also a living microcosm of the relationship between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and in the act of procreative marital union, the couple becomes co-creators with the Father in the creation of new life.

Single life just doesn’t have these aspects, in and of itself.

Consecrated Virgins get married to Jesus although I’m not sure how literally.

 

[Rosebud77]

It is a sacrifice. That’s the whole point. The priest/religious sacrifices the “normal” life of a layperson to serve God and the Church. That means sacrificing a family, career, spouse, and many of the freedoms of the lay state. That doesn’t mean there isn’t joy to be found in them.

Nobody thinks you are as low as a slug. I don’t know where you get that idea. I don’t see how I’ve insulted God. I’m just trying to put things in their context. The way I see it, a vocation, in the traditional sense of the word, refers only to vowed/consecrated vocations.

Whatever about that, that’s up for debate I guess. But what is not debatable is that Priesthood, Religious life and consecrated celibate life, is considered by the Church to be objectively superior to Married life, single life etc.

This is because it more closely resembles the life of Christ. I don’t see how that’s a hard position to take.

Jaw hits floor… Ah you are joking! Well you really had me going for a while. I read the valuing as different and chosen NOT superior and of higher rank

Yes you have insulted God by devaluing a way of life He has chosen for so many… there are no ranks in Him
.

 

[Rosebud77]

It’s quite different among Catholics. Depends on your culture I guess.

The more traditional Catholics get very confused when confronted with someone who is neither married or is a religious. It just does not compute to them.

However, I have seen my fair share of marriage idolatry where people assume that being married makes you a better person.

Or for career reasons… met a female barrister here who is openly gay but married a man for the show of it… ie a career move

 

[Rosebud77]

While I agree that marriage is a superior calling to accidental singleness, we cannot say the same of persons. Being married does not make one superior to a single person nor does being in consecrated life mean being a superior person to the married or single lay person.

We are after all all and each consecrated in our baptism and that is someithing I remind and comfort folk of whe they worry because of statements like some here

 

[Rosebud77]

Not automatically, but marriage and all vocations are supposed to encourage one to be a better person.

Just to clarify, I’m not saying that married/consecrated people are superior to anyone else, but certain ways of life are considered “objectively superior”.

The traditional vocations, for want of a better term, all have in common that they require the permission of the church, a period of discernment, and vows or consecration that requires the people who are undertaking them to make certain sacrifices or to renounce certain freedoms.
Consecrated Virgins renounce the pleasure and intimacy of sex and marriage in order to imitate the life of Christ more closely.
Religious and Priests renounce career, family, and personal freedom in order to live their lives in the service of the Church.
Married persons renounce the freedom associated with single life in order to live their lives committed to one other person and serving them and the Church as laypeople. Marriage is also a living microcosm of the relationship between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and in the act of procreative marital union, the couple becomes co-creators with the Father in the creation of new life.

Single life just doesn’t have these aspects, in and of itself.

You are wrong, We are all and each consecrated by our baptism. You are so very very wrong. I have never met a religious or priest who thinks like this either. Hubris walks here!

 

[Rosebud77]

Last time I checked there wasn’t that much privilege associated with being a priest, especially not these days.
Nobody here is running down singleness. It just isn’t the same as the other vocations.

You are in error . totally in error.

 

[Rosebud77]

I think the problem is that some people do still see married people as better, especially with children. They are often seen as more settled, responsible and mature when none of things are exclusive to marriage.

When I think of the people who support me in my faith they are all friends. Friends can do so much for each other, building you up, supporting one another, praying together and for each other. Friendship can be a wonderful thing.

YAY! being single gives you huge freedom to care for and nurture so many, To support mrried friends who need support …

 

[AdamP88]

You are wrong, We are all and each consecrated by our baptism. You are so very very wrong. I have never met a religious or priest who thinks like this either. Hubris walks here!

All you’ve said is that I’m wrong. I’ve provided quotes from Church documents that back up my points. Particularly about the objective superiority of religious/consecrated life.

Yes, like it or not, priesthood is a higher calling than married or single life. That has always been the thinking of the Church. If you have some actual evidence that proves me wrong, other than your opinion, then.I’m happy to see it.

 

[AdamP88]

Jaw hits floor… Ah you are joking! Well you really had me going for a while. I read the valuing as different and chosen NOT superior and of higher rank

Yes you have insulted God by devaluing a way of life He has chosen for so many… there are no ranks in Him
.

Read Vita Consecrata.
In your mind I’m insulting God. Not in actual fact.

Yours is a typical liberal “church of nice” view of vocations. All of us are equal and no vocation has more merit than another. What about the saints? Are we to say that if we get to heaven by the skin of our teeth we’ll all be the same as saints who lived lives of heroic virtue? That doesn’t sound just to me.

 

[Rosebud77]

Read Vita Consecrata.
In your mind I’m insulting God. Not in actual fact.
**
Yours is a typical liberal “church of nice” view of vocations. All of us are equal and no vocation has more merit than another. What about the saints? Are we to say that if we get to heaven by the skin of our teeth we’ll all be the same as saints who lived lives of heroic virtue? That doesn’t sound just to me.**

That first sentence is an insult frankly. A huge insult, If you knew my path through life .I expected better, As all vocations are of God and from God of course none has more merit than another. God does not have favourites. He loves us all as a Good Father. SOme choose not ot follow. We are , or at least I am not ,talking of that, Seems so much that is judgmental in this; leave judgement to God please. Skin of your teeth? We get to heaven through Jesus. Not our own merits.

I was thinking earlier that maybe you are not fully aware of why there were so many Sisters and priests in Ireland until recently? That was not vocation as we know it. Simply, the Church wanted to populate the world with priests and sisters and after the Famine which could have been less disastrous had Rome stepped in, Rome took pains to achieve this, Paul Cardinal Cullen was the man.

Men and women were literally conscriptedfrom poor families. One of my oldest extended family still well remembers the Friday night visits to every house by priests and sisters, asking which if your children are you going to give to God?

And of course to a large family this was one member or more less to feed; they woul e fed and housed and cared for and buried

Many families gave many children. I met some years ago a very old sister. She was one of seven children and they all became priests or sisters. Saw her obituary last year. Sweet lady

Demographically it altered the whole population here. We still have a generation of crusty old bachelors; there were no women of their generation left to marry.

And it is only recently that the population here has started to increase since the Famine.

That o me is not vocation and that does not happen any more // hence the decline whc is also caused by the abuse.

No I do nto see priesthood or religious life as a prize as you do, Or marriage either. I do nto see God like that either. And I do not negate the sacrifice made by Jesus, entire, all
sufficient if we accept Him and follow Him wherever He takes us. I have known this in a long hard life and know it still…
And so often people are stymied in their yearnings… Reverses the old saying so that God proposes, man disposes,

Adding one other point separately…

 

[Rosebud77]

I also see that you are minimising what friendship ie in single life is… It can be a deep deep sharing as in the ancient Celtic anamchara idea.
That is what I know and what I give also…Soul kin.

Singleness is as much vocation of God as religious life or marriage and in many ways more so

Also in these times it is far harder to live a pure life in this world and some are seeking a different form of that life. I came across this on my old stamping grounds.

singleconsecratedlife-anglican.org.uk/

What used in my day to be the normal way of life is so no longer. The world changes and not for the better and harder to be in Christ.

Many can do this alone, but some need that fellowship,

 

[AdamP88]

Nobody is trying to diminish friendship. I am arguing that we should see the various vocations in their right place and context
Yes, friendship can be deep and fulfilling and beautiful (I have friends, I am aware of this). But the most deep and intimate of friendships is that of Husband and Wife in the sacrament of marriage. Yes, not all spouses share this friendship, but ideally your spouse will also be your best friend.

It’s all very well to talk about recruitment methods in years gone by, but that doesn’t change the way that particular vocations are viewed by the Church.

Your point about God not having favorites is not entirely accurate. The Church teaches that people will have different levels of joy in heaven depending on their capacity. I have no doubt that the Saints will be in a “higher” place in heaven that me.

It is also incorrect to say that no vocation is superior, again, read Vita Consecrata. I provided a quote from this document earlier in the thread.

Oh, and that doesn’t mean that the individual person living that vocation is a superior person, only that the state of life is one that more closely aligns with the life of Christ.

It’s irrelevant how religious or priests that you know “see themselves”, the Church position on this is clear and hasn’t magically changed over the years.

 

[Sarcelle]

Nobody is trying to diminish friendship. I am arguing that we should see the various vocations in their right place and context
Yes, friendship can be deep and fulfilling and beautiful (I have friends, I am aware of this). But the most deep and intimate of friendships is that of Husband and Wife in the sacrament of marriage. Yes, not all spouses share this friendship, but ideally your spouse will also be your best friend.

It’s all very well to talk about recruitment methods in years gone by, but that doesn’t change the way that particular vocations are viewed by the Church.

Your point about God not having favorites is not entirely accurate. The Church teaches that people will have different levels of joy in heaven depending on their capacity. I have no doubt that the Saints will be in a “higher” place in heaven that me.

It is also incorrect to say that no vocation is superior, again, read Vita Consecrata. I provided a quote from this document earlier in the thread.

Oh, and that doesn’t mean that the individual person living that vocation is a superior person, only that the state of life is one that more closely aligns with the life of Christ.

It’s irrelevant how religious or priests that you know “see themselves”, the Church position on this is clear and hasn’t magically changed over the years.

The relationship between husband and wife does not automatically translate to a deep and abiding friendship. In fact it is not even a requirement for a valid marriage. Your statement about marriage bringing about a deep and fulfilling friendship is more like wishful thinking more in line with romanticism rather than Church doctrine.

Again this is a discussion on friendship which is possible even without getting married.

 

[AdamP88]

The relationship between husband and wife does not automatically translate to a deep and abiding friendship. In fact it is not even a requirement for a valid marriage. Your statement about marriage bringing about a deep and fulfilling friendship is more like wishful thinking more in line with romanticism rather than Church doctrine.

Again this is a discussion on friendship which is possible even without getting married.

I am aware of that. My point is that marriage has the potential to be more fulfilling and intimate than any friendship.

I am also aware that friendship isn’t a requirement for marriage. It could never be either as there is no “test” for friendship. But I’m saying that the ideal for marriage is to be the best friend of your spouse.

No, I don’t really think it’s wishful thinking. My best friend is my future wife. I can’t envision having a closer friend than her.

The closeness of man and wife is in Genesis and reinforced by Christ.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Nobody is trying to diminish friendship. I am arguing that we should see the various vocations in their right place and context
Yes, friendship can be deep and fulfilling and beautiful (I have friends, I am aware of this). But the most deep and intimate of friendships is that of Husband and Wife in the sacrament of marriage. Yes, not all spouses share this friendship, but ideally your spouse will also be your best friend.

It’s all very well to talk about recruitment methods in years gone by, but that doesn’t change the way that particular vocations are viewed by the Church.

Your point about God not having favorites is not entirely accurate. The Church teaches that people will have different levels of joy in heaven depending on their capacity. I have no doubt that the Saints will be in a “higher” place in heaven that me.

It is also incorrect to say that no vocation is superior, again, read Vita Consecrata. I provided a quote from this document earlier in the thread.

Oh, and that doesn’t mean that the individual person living that vocation is a superior person, only that the state of life is one that more closely aligns with the life of Christ.

It’s irrelevant how religious or priests that you know “see themselves”, the Church position on this is clear and hasn’t magically changed over the years.

There is no evidence that that friendship is any deep in marriage other than your claim that because marriage is a sacrament the friendship is magically better. From what I’ve seen from historical documents friendship seemed strongest amongst people who were unmarried and they certainly equaled how in love married couples today are, indeed in one case a guy almost literally died of a broken heart at the death of his friend (guy completely lost the will to live refusing food and drink, dying a couple days later).

This idea that marriage is the most fulfilling relationship is a modernist idea wholly unsubstantiated by any actual theological sources.

So, what, a single guy working hard to support his family and making sure his kids make the sports team is closer to the life of Christ than some carpenter who is single, goes to daily Mass and adoration spending most his weekends doing charity work?

 

[AdamP88]

I don’t think that marriage is magically fulfilling or magically anything. I do think it has the POTENTIAL to be the most fulfilling relationship in the lives of those who enter into it.

And the most fulfilling relationship possible between two people. It’s not a modernist idea at all. A more modernist idea is that all vocations are equal actually.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

I don’t think that marriage is magically fulfilling or magically anything. I do think it has the POTENTIAL to be the most fulfilling relationship in the lives of those who enter into it.

And the most fulfilling relationship possible between two people. It’s not a modernist idea at all. A more modernist idea is that all vocations are equal actually.

In the Western World it was really only in the 18th century that the concept of marrying for love started to stop being regarded as an incredibly terrible idea.

CANON X.-If any one saith, that the marriage state is to be placed above the state of virginity, or of celibacy, and that it is not better and more blessed to remain in virginity, or in celibacy, than to be united in matrimony; let him be anathema.

It is actually heretical to believe they are equal.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

I don’t think that marriage is magically fulfilling or magically anything. I do think it has the POTENTIAL to be the most fulfilling relationship in the lives of those who enter into it.

And the most fulfilling relationship possible between two people. It’s not a modernist idea at all. A more modernist idea is that all vocations are equal actually.

Let me say it: Love is blinding you. You are in love , engaged to be married, and it is the most wonderful thing ever. However, that is not how marriage has been through the ages. I don’t think you have examined the subject of marriage before the modern era and in various cultures.

The unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how to please the Lord. But the married man is anxious about worldly things, how to please his wife, and his interests are divided…but the married woman is anxious about worldly things, how to please her husband.

Do you not see that modern marriage is an example of this to an unholy extreme? This is idolatry of marriage. I can’t say I would expect a man or woman who is in love and wants to be married to see it. I wouldn’t be able to, tbh.

 

[AdamP88]

In the Western World it was really only in the 18th century that the concept of marrying for love started to stop being regarded as an incredibly terrible idea.

It is actually heretical to believe they are equal.

I actually never said they were equal. I said that the state of virginity was objectively superior.

Anyway. I think I’ve stated a good few times what the church position is.

Besides theology there is also a fair amount of psychology that backs up my point.

The whole “love has blinded you” thing is rubbish. Why are you insisting on comparing yo marriage in bygone days. It seems to me that marriage for love is what God intended from the start (see genesis)