The Bible Does Not Say We Have An Immortal Soul

[St_Redemption]

Hope the OP grows up enough to find another hobby besides posting arrogant challenges and mocking other peoples’ religions. If you’re an atheist, fine. So what. Just be happy as you are, no need to troll a catholic site trying to stir up arguments.

Exactly. I mean, friendly debates from people of all beliefs should be encouraged, but not in a disrespectful and condescending way.

But we all have bad moments. I know I’ve had my moments where I came across as arrogant on the net. I hope the OP chooses to stick around and engage in productive conversation. It’s a great forum

 

[JCnMe]

I believe atheists carry a heavy burden in life- being spiritually blind to God -and yet they find themselves over and over challenging those who know Him… you are being prompted to find Him- He is calling you-THAT urge is the Spirit and Soul in you searching for the Holy Spirit…so while you may have trouble understanding perhaps you should just keep an open mind and heart-and let God handle the details of your journey home…finding yourself among Catholics on a forum that seeks answers should tell you…something

 

[Iron_Donkey]

Add to all the other examples the whole “if a man has 7 wives, which one will he be married to after death challenge,” and the “God is the God of the living, not the dead” thing.

Also, if, as the OP suggested, it was thought that the soul (or whatever he thinks the word we translate as soul actually means) did not survive the body, then killing the body would kill the soul, and so the quoted attempt to explain away the kill the body/kill the soul thing is silly. It would be kind of a waste of time to tell people not to fear those who can only kill the body and not the soul if killing the body killed the soul, because there would be no such people.

But it absolutely is true that Christians came to a fuller understanding of our doctrines over time, and it is true that many things that are true are not set forth explicitly and completely in bible. The mere fact that there is life after death is not one of these, but some understanding of what that means and how that works could very well have developed with time. Sola Scriptura is false, and Catholics know this.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Isn’t that amazing?

Watched a debate where an Atheist insisted to a holy man: “… at least admit the Bible does not claim you have an immortal soul”, and after some stuttering, the man wearing a cross said that was true.

Somehow missed this detail so turned to Google and discovered it is a fact. The Bible makes it especially confusing, using words like ‘soul’ and ‘spirit’ to mean essentially the same thing, but neither mean any sort of being that survives death, heading for heaven or hell, or judgement, or whatever.

In fact, further research shows the first few centuries of your religion were full controversy as you all tried to make sense of it all. Wasn’t till like 400 years after Christ’s death that Augustine came with the concept you all now embrace as ‘gospel’.

Found this too interesting to keep to myself. Never knew. So, wondering, does the Catholic church of today teach their flock the reality of how this idea came about?

I think you need to take a good course in the development of Catholic Doctrine. To begin with the Bible makes it clear that man has an immortal principle. Whether it is called soul or life is immaterial since languge is dependent on its understanding and usage by the particular person ( s ) using it. So while the Bible does indeed use the term soul, as translated by all modern languages, its exact meaning was never in doubt. Nor has its meaning ever been in doubt by the Church, though perhaps certain individuals may have been confused or in error. The current understanding has always been the understanding of the Church, whose teachings are guaranteed through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Linus2nd

 

[TimothyH]

Isn’t that amazing?

Watched a debate where an Atheist insisted to a holy man: “… at least admit the Bible does not claim you have an immortal soul”, and after some stuttering, the man wearing a cross said that was true.

Somehow missed this detail so turned to Google and discovered it is a fact. The Bible makes it especially confusing, using words like ‘soul’ and ‘spirit’ to mean essentially the same thing, but neither mean any sort of being that survives death, heading for heaven or hell, or judgement, or whatever.

In fact, further research shows the first few centuries of your religion were full controversy as you all tried to make sense of it all. Wasn’t till like 400 years after Christ’s death that Augustine came with the concept you all now embrace as ‘gospel’.

Found this too interesting to keep to myself. Never knew. So, wondering, does the Catholic church of today teach their flock the reality of how this idea came about?

Soul and Spirit are not the same thing.

-Tim-

 

[Mike_Dye]

I don’t get arguing with an atheist…just claiming to be an atheist is proof enough that that person is incapable of a logical thought process, so a meaningful argument is not possible.

 

[fnr]

Isn’t that amazing?

Even more so because it’s not true!

Watched a debate where an Atheist insisted to a holy man: “… at least admit the Bible does not claim you have an immortal soul”, and after some stuttering, the man wearing a cross said that was true.

I’m not going to take that testimony as true, when I know it’s not.

Somehow missed this detail so turned to Google and discovered it is a fact. The Bible makes it especially confusing, using words like ‘soul’ and ‘spirit’ to mean essentially the same thing, but neither mean any sort of being that survives death, heading for heaven or hell, or judgement, or whatever.

Uh… no.

In fact, further research shows the first few centuries of your religion were full controversy as you all tried to make sense of it all. Wasn’t till like 400 years after Christ’s death that Augustine came with the concept you all now embrace as ‘gospel’.

Found this too interesting to keep to myself. Never knew. So, wondering, does the Catholic church of today teach their flock the reality of how this idea came about?

Well, it sounds like you’re confused about Catholic teaching. As, in fact, are many Catholics and other Christians. The end state of a human who dies in a state of sanctifying grace is not that of a disembodied soul, but as a union between a soul and a resurrected (glorified) body. The existence of an immortal soul independent of the body is NOT resurrection. Belief in the resurrection is in the very earliest writings of the New Testament (e.g., 1 Corinthians 15) and is present in the Old Testament (e.g., Wisdom 3).

Before you allege what the Catholic Church teaches about the history of the immortal soul, I strongly recommend that you make sure you understand what the Catechism of the Catholic Church actually teaches about the soul as part of human anthropology:
*
"II. “BODY AND SOUL BUT TRULY ONE”

362 The human person, created in the image of God, is a being at once corporeal and spiritual. the biblical account expresses this reality in symbolic language when it affirms that “then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.” Man, whole and entire, is therefore willed by God.

363 In Sacred Scripture the term “soul” often refers to human life or the entire human person.230 But “soul” also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him, 231 that by which he is most especially in God’s image: “soul” signifies the spiritual principle in man.

364 The human body shares in the dignity of “the image of God”: it is a human body precisely because it is animated by a spiritual soul, and it is the whole human person that is intended to become, in the body of Christ, a temple of the Spirit:

Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity. Through his very bodily condition he sums up in himself the elements of the material world. Through him they are thus brought to their highest perfection and can raise their voice in praise freely given to the Creator. For this reason man may not despise his bodily life. Rather he is obliged to regard his body as good and to hold it in honour since God has created it and will raise it up on the last day

365 The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the “form” of the body: i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.

366 The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not “produced” by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.

367 Sometimes the soul is distinguished from the spirit: St. Paul for instance prays that God may sanctify his people “wholly”, with “spirit and soul and body” kept sound and blameless at the Lord’s coming.236 The Church teaches that this distinction does not introduce a duality into the soul.237 “Spirit” signifies that from creation man is ordered to a supernatural end and that his soul can gratuitously be raised beyond all it deserves to communion with God.238

368 The spiritual tradition of the Church also emphasizes the heart, in the biblical sense of the depths of one’s being, where the person decides for or against God.​

*

 

[chefmomster2]

Isn’t that amazing?

Watched a debate where an Atheist insisted to a holy man: “… at least admit the Bible does not claim you have an immortal soul”, and after some stuttering, the man wearing a cross said that was true.

Somehow missed this detail so turned to Google and discovered it is a fact. The Bible makes it especially confusing, using words like ‘soul’ and ‘spirit’ to mean essentially the same thing, but neither mean any sort of being that survives death, heading for heaven or hell, or judgement, or whatever.

In fact, further research shows the first few centuries of your religion were full controversy as you all tried to make sense of it all. Wasn’t till like 400 years after Christ’s death that Augustine came with the concept you all now embrace as ‘gospel’.

Found this too interesting to keep to myself. Never knew. So, wondering, does the Catholic church of today teach their flock the reality of how this idea came about?

Ok, you state that the bible contains no claim that we have an immortal soul. Darryl B finds three examples of places in the bible that do in fact support this claim- a DIRECT response to your thesis and you criticize him for “tossing out verses”. Really???

How is one to show the bible has such verses without using the verses?



Great job, Darryl B!

 

[TimothyH]

I hate to be pedantic, but, does the Bible need to explicitly contain every doctrine Christians believe in within its pages? Yes, I know there are some Christians who may believe that, but Catholics are not really those ‘some Christians’. You won’t find the word ‘Trinity’ in the Bible, nor a detailed explanation of the Assumption or the Immaculate Conception. You won’t find any definition of the two persons of Jesus or the Hypostatic Union from any biblical book - educated Catholics know that. This is why I really feel that ‘The Bible doesn’t say…’ arguments don’t work well when you’re speaking with Catholics, or anyone who does not hold the belief of sola Scriptura (or at least, a hard-line interpretation of it anyway), because we Catholics would simply say ‘Well, not everything needs to be spelled out explicitly in the Bible.’

It’s worse than that, Patrick. Much of what Catholics themselves blindly accept as not even being mentioned, let alone explicit in Sacred Scripture is nearly so.

Transubstantiation

For the elements changed places with one another, (Wisdom 19:18)

Jesus is God

Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours in the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: (1 Peter 1:1)

I find myself saying to both Catholics and Non-Catholics, “Yes it is in the Bible. It’s right there in black and white” quite often.

The phrase “eternal life” is in the New Testament 43 times. We can argue about whether it is a soul or a spirit or a physical body, but the Bible speaks clearly about immortality. It’s right there there in black and white for anyone who cares to open it and read it.

People say that such-and-such isn’t in the Bible or that this-and-that isn’t in the Bible and sometimes I want to ask if they have ever actually opened it and read it, or ask if they have a leather bound copy of a Stephen Spielberg novel which they mistakenly think is the Bible.

-Tim-

 

[Mumbles140]

Wait, so was that Zombie Moses and Zombie Elijah with Jesus during the Transfiguration? Teleporting zombies, nonetheless…freaky…

 

[Missian_Alyssa]

1 Corinthians 15:52-54

Good News Translation (GNT)

51-52 Listen to this secret truth: we shall not all die, but when the last trumpet sounds, we shall all be changed in an instant, as quickly as the blinking of an eye. For when the trumpet sounds, the dead will be raised, never to die again, and we shall all be changed. 53 For what is mortal must be changed into what is immortal; what will die must be changed into what cannot die. 54 So when this takes place, and the mortal has been changed into the immortal, then the scripture will come true: “Death is destroyed; victory is complete!”

Even if the “soul” is temporary, the resurrected body can not be destroyed, thus a temporary soul trapped in an non-destructible body will last forever in “eternal punishment” of Matthew 25:46.

 

[St_Redemption]

Isn’t that amazing?

In fact, further research shows the first few centuries of your religion were full controversy as you all tried to make sense of it all. Wasn’t till like 400 years after Christ’s death that Augustine came with the concept you all now embrace as ‘gospel’.

Paul’s letters speak of eternal life in Christ frequently. Paul’s letters where written shortly after Jesus’s death. And the Gospels themselves are rich with language suggestive of the afterlife. The Gospels date of origin, even in conservative scholarship, are all dated from the mid to late first century.

 

[JRKH]

I am a little confused as to why you title a thread ‘The Bible Does Not Say We Have An Immortal Soul’ and than get upset with poster Darryl B for quoting the Bible in order to show that it does say that we have an immortal soul.
Josh

Yes, I know, as a Christian, you think if you keep tossing out verses from your holy book, it will all become manifest to me. Already know there are many references to ‘souls’ in the Bible, was trying to encourage you to look outside of your singular point of view and see what better minds than yours or mind have conceived.

Some points here…

1. Question - Just how do you know that these other minds are “better” than Darryl B, the person you were replying to here? Are you personally acquainted with him? Do you know his IQ? His education? Or anything else about him? And - How do you know that Darryl B actually DOES have a “singular point of view”?.
2. If one takes you advice (and I have in my past life) one might just still come the conclusion that Christianity is the correct path. And one might well make that conclusion based on the writings of some very fine minds indeed.
3. If you wish to encourage people to look at different viewpoints…Consider asking questions instead of simply making declarative statements.

Here Is what I found (you know, part of that “Seek and ye shall find” directive):

The word “soul” is not the best translation of the original Hebrew and Greek terms. In the Bible the “soul” is not immortal and cannot exist independent of the physical body. From the point of view of biblical anthropology (the study of human nature), the term “soul” expresses two main ideas. First, humans are by nature creatures of desires and ongings. Second, humans are living beings who eagerly seek to live but are unable to acquire or preserve life by themselves. “Soul” refers to the whole person in need of God, who is the only one who can preserve a human being or extinguish the self forever (Matt. 10:28). Therefore, nephesh/psuche refers to the totality of the person as a center of life, emotions, feelings, and longings that can be fully realized only in union with God.

Like I said; fascinating, for those dare to look.

Yes - fascinating that someone who wishes to encourage us to look does not provide links to the things he references.

Just some thoughts…from a

Peace
James

 

[Tzimisce]

Isn’t that amazing?

Watched a debate where an Atheist insisted to a holy man: “… at least admit the Bible does not claim you have an immortal soul”, and after some stuttering, the man wearing a cross said that was true.

Somehow missed this detail so turned to Google and discovered it is a fact. The Bible makes it especially confusing, using words like ‘soul’ and ‘spirit’ to mean essentially the same thing, but neither mean any sort of being that survives death, heading for heaven or hell, or judgement, or whatever.

In fact, further research shows the first few centuries of your religion were full controversy as you all tried to make sense of it all. Wasn’t till like 400 years after Christ’s death that Augustine came with the concept you all now embrace as ‘gospel’.

Found this too interesting to keep to myself. Never knew. So, wondering, does the Catholic church of today teach their flock the reality of how this idea came about?

…the Bible talks about living eternally with the father in Heaven or suffering eternally in the burning lake of Hell.

The immortal soul is kind of implied in those passages…

 

[chefmomster2]

It’s worse than that, Patrick. Much of what Catholics themselves blindly accept as not even being mentioned, let alone explicit in Sacred Scripture is nearly so.

Transubstantiation

For the elements changed places with one another, (Wisdom 19:18)

Jesus is God

Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours in the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: (1 Peter 1:1)

I find myself saying to both Catholics and Non-Catholics, “Yes it is in the Bible. It’s right there in black and white” quite often.

The phrase “eternal life” is in the New Testament 43 times. We can argue about whether it is a soul or a spirit or a physical body, but the Bible speaks clearly about immortality. It’s right there there in black and white for anyone who cares to open it and read it.

People say that such-and-such isn’t in the Bible or that this-and-that isn’t in the Bible and sometimes I want to ask if they have ever actually opened it and read it, or ask if they have a leather bound copy of a Stephen Spielberg novel which they mistakenly think is the Bible.

-Tim-

 

[chefmomster2]

So, wondering, does the Catholic church of today teach their flock the reality of how this idea came about?

YES! Here is the history of the question…

newadvent.org/cathen/07687a.htm

 

[Gorgias]

I did a search to see where you come up with this quote. It came from a Seventh Day Advent site

This!

That’s the answer, right there. The OP found a Seventh Day Adventist site, and quoted their ideas. SDAs believe in annihilationism – that is, they believe that the souls of the damned will be destroyed by God, and that only the souls of the just will live forever in heaven.

Therefore, since their doctrine explicitly proclaims that some souls will not be eternal, they must – as a logical consequence! – proclaim that the Bible doesn’t teach an eternal soul. After all, if they didn’t teach this, but rather, taught that there was an eternal soul, they’d have to deal with the inconsistency in their doctrine.

So, the OP, we hope, has learned a valuable lesson: not all Christians believe in the same set of doctrines. And, we hope, that you can’t take one group (i.e., Catholics) to task for beliefs that others (i.e., SDAs) believe but in which they, themselves, don’t…

 

[Darryl_B]

Yes, I know, as a Christian, you think if you keep tossing out verses from your holy book, it will all become manifest to me. Already know there are many references to ‘souls’ in the Bible, was trying to encourage you to look outside of your singular point of view and see what better minds than yours or mind have conceived.

Here is what I found (you know, part of that “Seek and ye shall find” directive):

The word “soul” is not the best translation of the original Hebrew and Greek terms. In the Bible the “soul” is not immortal and cannot exist independent of the physical body. From the point of view of biblical anthropology (the study of human nature), the term “soul” expresses two main ideas. First, humans are by nature creatures of desires and ongings. Second, humans are living beings who eagerly seek to live but are unable to acquire or preserve life by themselves. “Soul” refers to the whole person in need of God, who is the only one who can preserve a human being or extinguish the self forever (Matt. 10:28). Therefore, nephesh/psuche refers to the totality of the person as a center of life, emotions, feelings, and longings that can be fully realized only in union with God.

Like I said; fascinating, for those dare to look.

Sorry, but I preached exactly the same as you 20 years ago (though I wasn’t an atheist I was one of those fringe christians you are a disciple of).

It left far too many problems not solutions, so yes I did dare to look.

So, Jesus body went into the tomb, Jesus’ soul descended into Hades, and what did he do there?

He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 1 Peter 3:19. Spirits in prison, Hades, spirits/souls, otherwise how else would they feel about what was being preached to them? These were souls alive at the time of Noah amongst others.

Then when he ascended on high he led a host of captives Ephesians 4:8 citing from Psalm 68:18.

He led them from Hades into heaven. These captives spirit/soul went with Jesus Christ into heaven. Do they have emotion? Are they asleep? Are they comatose zombies?

It is unfortunate that the basic meaning of the Hebrew and Greek words are blurry in terms of precise application, but that is not a good enough argument to discredit Jewish thought. Neither is Plato a good enough argument to discredit Jewish thought.

A relevant document to this is the Discourse to the Greeks concerning Hades, by Josephus.

 

[MadNotAngry]

To gain any credility, you need to not pick and choose only what suits you.

LOL, a Christian accusing an Atheist of ‘cherry picking’! Har-har!

Listen, could’ve copy&pasted whole pages of the information available, or provided links. That was not my goal. Merely wished to point out that you believe you have an immortal soul - because of what some old dude decided 400 years after Christ walked the earth. Nothing in your Bible claims otherwise.

As a time reference, 400 years ago, was about the time Galiao first pointed his telescope to the stars.

 

[MadNotAngry]

I find it funny how some atheists claim that they know our own religion better than we do. It’s a riot.

So, show me where, in your Bible, I am wrong. That way, perhaps, we can both learn something new. Up for the challenge? Care to actually learn?

Thought not.