The Bible Forbids Rituals?

[wmscott]

On the other hand, I have seen people go through the Rosary with no apparent purpose but to say it as fast as they can and finish as soon as possible. That seems to me like meaningless repetition.

As already stated, we do not know what is in the hearts of each outer. Maybe this person was unusually stressed because of some catastrophic event in their lives; maybe they had been away from the Rosary for too long and were excited to be back, the list could go on and on. So why would you judge a person this way. At least this person was praying, let us not judge their intent or their hearts.

 

[Le_Cracquere]

so Jesus was wrong when he established ritual at the Last Supper? guess he did not get the memo

You probably won’t like this news, but at least you can give 'em points for consistency: many Evangelicals and Charismatics refuse to have regular or frequent Communion precisely on the grounds that doing so would be ritualistic.

 

[Eutychus123]

Some of the most ritualistic people I ever met were Baptists.

Typical service:
Greeting
Opening hymn
Announcments
2nd hymn
Offering
3rd hymn
Sermon
Invitation hymn
Dismissal
Closing hymn

You left out the Pastoral prayer after the sermon.

 

[Publisher]

Coming from a Friend’s background, what seems to be “missing” from all your responses is the reason many…Friends included…do not necessarily practice a “ritualistic” style of worship is the belief that just performing a ritual DOES NOT in and of itself “confer grace”…grace comes from God’s working in our lives through faith.

Example…the ritual of water baptism…those of you who practice water baptism of children do so to “confer grace” to them…that somehow God cannot…or will not dispense His grace without the enactment of a ritual.

The “sacramental” aspect of the rites and rituals is what is objected to…

Catholics will not accept the baptism of other groups unless the “correct formula” is stated over the one being baptized…

The eucharist is not considered valid unless the correct words and gestures and person performs those gestures and speaks the correct words…

From someone outside a sacramental style of theology, the requirements of the “correct words” and “gestures” and “matter” sounds a whole lot like “ceremonial magick”…where correct gestures and words and ritual implements are requirements to have a sucessful “ritual”.

That God cannot…or will not…dispense His grace to an individual through the act of their faith in Him is foreign to many people’s faith tradition.

Yes…Baptists have a set form of worship…HOWEVER they do not believe that perfoming that ritual in and of itself causes God to dispense grace to the individual.

Friends believe that all ritual requirements…RITUAL REQUIREMENTS which the Law perscribed has been fulfilled in Christ…therefor NO RITUAL is required to receive God’s grace and mercy.

Friends believe in sacraments…life itself is a sacrament…the ‘secular’ and the ‘sacred’ are not separated…each act of kindness holds sacramental “possibility”…every meal is an opportunity to experience the “sacramental reality” of Christ truly present…each time we move our hands to lift a brother up…or move our hands to calm a frightened child…each word of kindess and each act of compassion is an opportunity to receive “sacramental grace”.

The underlying belief is NOT “rituals are forbidden”…but that ritulas in and of themselves only point to a Reality of life that we should be engaging in already as the People of God.

Each vocation people of faith engage in carries with it “holy orders”…whether minister, priest, street sweeper, computer operator or physician.

Marriage is sacramental in it’s very nature…no one can “confer” the sacramental Reality of two joining together in “symbolic re-enactment” of Christ and His People. The couple join together “in the sight of God and these friends” in faith that God is at the center.

“Means of Grace” occur whether institurtionalizef rituals occur or no…not because of ritual and “correct” words and gestures…we receive grace through faith.

Ritual acts and words do not confer grace…faith confers grace…abundantly.

 

[rebecca123]

For example, if the sacrament of confirmation confers grace in and of itself, through the process of the sacrament, it would seem anyone who has worthily received this sacrament would be strong in faith and certainly not stray from the church . However, I have several friends who don’t even consider themselves Christians anymore, all of whom have received the sacrament of confirmation. I am still learning I guess.

 

[Ben_F]

There´s a difference between meaningless repetition and just repetition. I want to say I love you Lord a million times. God bless:thumbsup:

 

[Publisher]

For example, if the sacrament of confirmation confers grace in and of itself, through the process of the sacrament, it would seem anyone who has worthily received this sacrament would be strong in faith and certainly not stray from the church . However, I have several friends who don’t even consider themselves Christians anymore, all of whom have received the sacrament of confirmation. I am still learning I guess.

The “assumption” many Protestants make is that it is the “ritual” itself that dispenses grace apart from faith…just because a person has undergone a ritual means that somehow they have been a recipient of grace that wasn’t available to them without the ritual being performed…while it can be argued that a person who claims “I’m a Christian becaused I’ve been baptized…” yet lives like the devil is not a Christian on the one side…yet on the other…“He’s been baptized correctly…so…he’s a Christian.”

A Christian is not someone who has undergone rituals…but someone who lives a life of faith and trust in Christ…that is the difference and difficulty between Catholic/ritualistic faith traditions and Protestant/non-ritualistic traditions.which center not on the fact a ritual has been performed as “a means of grace”…but grace through faith…you’ll see it as an underlying current in every thread…some even defining being a “Christian” by baptism in water being conducted “correctly”…it “appears” that some people are saying that if the ritual is conducted “properly” with the “correct” words being spoken…one is a Christian…apart from an act of faith in Christ.

For Friends…and many other Protestants…access to God’s grace and mercy is by faith…apart from any “ritual” requirements of the Law.

 

[wmscott]

For example, if the sacrament of confirmation confers grace in and of itself, through the process of the sacrament, **it would seem anyone who has worthily received this sacrament would be strong in faith and certainly not stray from the church **. However, I have several friends who don’t even consider themselves Christians anymore, all of whom have received the sacrament of confirmation. I am still learning I guess.

You are assuming that because they received a Sacrament that somehow they are now super Christians who never sin or fall from grace. This is a mistake in your understanding. Because we are sinners we constantly need the Sacraments in our spiritual lives. Note that a few sacraments are only given once because of the indelible mark it leaves on the soul such as confirmation.

 

[Nicea325]

I’m just saying this is the scripture you will probably get it you ask for specific quotations. Another might be where Jesus told the Samaritan woman that the hour is coming and now is when true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth.

You are absolutely right about scripture having examples of repeating prayers. Matthew tells us explicitly that Jesus prayed three times to “let this cup pass from me.” The same is implied in Mark. We also have Paul who in 2 Corinthians asks the Lord three times to remove the thorn in his flesh. Paul also told the Thessalonians to pray without ceasing. Finally we see the four creatures of Revelation 4 singing “Holy, Holy, Holy” day and night without ceasing.

So repetitious prayers are not the problem. It’s the meaningless repetition that we are to avoid. Right now the best example I can think of would be the Rosary. I hear Fr. Benedict Groeschel and Simonetta on EWTN radio and their recitation of the Rosary is a heartfelt prayer. On the other hand, I have seen people go through the Rosary with no apparent purpose but to say it as fast as they can and finish as soon as possible. That seems to me like meaningless repetition.

Yes meaningless repitition is not good. Prayers should not be a race to get done;moreover,through prayer we should reflect and meditate on what we are saying.

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by rebecca123
For example, if the sacrament of confirmation confers grace in and of itself, through the process of the sacrament, it** would seem anyone who has worthily received this sacrament would be strong in faith and certainly not stray from the church **. However, I have several friends who don’t even consider themselves Christians anymore, all of whom have received the sacrament of confirmation. I am still learning I guess.

Actually your understanding is faulty. Simply because one received a sacrament it does not mean one will no longer sin or stray. We are humans,not robots programmed not to make errors once sacraments are received. Problem is that many Catholics today view it as a “fulfillment” and once they receive a sacrament they no longer need to attend Mass,pray,confess,study Scripture,etc,etc. Faith and conversion are a life time PROCESS,not instant gratification once sacraments are received.

 

[SonCatcher]

That God cannot…or will not…dispense His grace to an individual through the act of their faith in Him is foreign to many people’s faith tradition.

Catholics recognize that God is not limited to the Sacraments. He can confer Grace by any means and is not limited by any rules placed on us. The Sacraments are the ordinary means of Grace to us. If one is prepared to receive God’s grace but is lacking the availability of the sacrament, God can still confer grace. If one attempts a sacrament to receive grace while lacking proper disposition, he does not receive grace (further, he commits sacrilege).

EDIT: This belief that God is able to give grace by extraordinary means is behind the controversial Catholic teaching that the invincibly ignorant (e.g. pagans in unevangelized territories) still have the opportunity to be saved.

 

[Publisher]

Catholics recognize that God is not limited to the Sacraments. He can confer Grace by any means and is not limited by any rules placed on us. The Sacraments are the ordinary means of Grace to us. If one is prepared to receive God’s grace but is lacking the availability of the sacrament, God can still confer grace. If one attempts a sacrament to receive grace while lacking proper disposition, he does not receive grace (further, he commits sacrilege).

EDIT: This belief that God is able to give grace by extraordinary means is behind the controversial Catholic teaching that the invincibly ignorant (e.g. pagans in unevangelized territories) still have the opportunity to be saved.

Understood…but those Protestants that do not believe the “ordinary” means of grace are through the correct performance of rites and rituals reject that…the “ordinary” means of grace is through faith. God confers His grace when one responds to Him in faith…religious rituals are not necessary to receive God’s grace.

 

[SonCatcher]

Understood…but those Protestants that do not believe the “ordinary” means of grace are through the correct performance of rites and rituals reject that…the “ordinary” means of grace is through faith. God confers His grace when one responds to Him in faith…religious rituals are not necessary to receive God’s grace.

…so when they perform a baptism or communion service they condemn themselves for blind ritualism because they are not responding in faith.

Catholics believe that Jesus gave us these signs as a means to Grace (normative for us to receive, not for Him to give). Without such meaning, Protestants find themselves in the same situation as the Pharisees who insisted on washing hands and prohibiting good deeds on the Sabbath.

 

[Publisher]

SonCatcher;8383834**:

…so when they perform a baptism or communion service they condemn themselves for blind ritualism because they are not responding in faith.

]

Catholics believe that Jesus gave us these signs as a means to Grace (normative for us to receive, not for Him to give). Without such meaning, Protestants find themselves in the same situation as the Pharisees who insisted on washing hands and prohibiting good deeds on the Sabbath.

How you made that leap is beyond me.

As a Friend I do not practice ritual cleansings to receive God’s grace…we do have “pot-lucks” and “break bread” together as we share in the Presence of God in our midst and with one another.

I understand that Catholics believe rituals and rites are necessary…the ritual requirements of the Law were fulfilled in Christ…the “normative” means of grace is through faith.

 

[Publisher]

…so when they perform a baptism or communion service they condemn themselves for blind ritualism because they are not responding in faith.
Catholics believe that Jesus gave us these signs as a means to Grace (normative for us to receive, not for Him to give). Without such meaning, Protestants find themselves in the same situation as the Pharisees who insisted on washing hands and prohibiting good deeds on the Sabbath.

How you made that leap is beyond me.

 

[Nicea325]

How you made that leap is beyond me.

Well don’t Protestants believe that rituals were fulfilled? First of all,I would like to know where fulfillent equates into eradication? If that were truly the case,then why would Jesus even bother with the Last Supper and state to “do” it? The verb “do” equates into rituals my friend. And if one does not need rituals at all, then I guess the Lord’s Supper is all a waste of time…according to your position?

 

[You]

Bohym Bawerk got it about right with his explanation. However, if you ask for specific scripture, I believe most would go to Matthew 6:7: “And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words."

You better not be a Gentile then.

 

[Publisher]

Well don’t Protestants believe that rituals were fulfilled? First of all,I would like to know where fulfillent equates into eradication? If that were truly the case,then why would Jesus even bother with the Last Supper and state to “do” it? The verb “do” equates into rituals my friend. And if one does not need rituals at all, then I guess the Lord’s Supper is all a waste of time…according to your position?

RITUAL REQUIREMENTS FOR THE DISPENSING OF SAVING GRACE was fullfilled in Christ.

Since I have not participated in ritual baptism…nor do I participate in specific ritual meals of “remeberance”…while I would not claim they are a “waste of time”…those are your words, not mine…they are un-necessary for my life in Christ…IF you find them necessary for your faith…I am not at odds with you. If you were to ask me to participate with you as a brother in Christ…and it was not in opposition to your faith tradition…I would…it is Christ we share…in Him we live and move and have our being…we serve the same God…and while you believe I do so quite imperfectly and in “ignorance” I would think…He still moves among us…making us His own in joyful faith.

I have participated in eucharist celebrations with some Episcopalian and Methodist friends…as well as participated in the Lord’s Supper and foot washing ceremonies among Mennonites and Brethren in Christ…it was understood as a Friend I did not meet their “normative” requirements of water baptism…but I would certainly be welcome to remember our Lord’s passion and death in joining their communion service…it has been moving experiences to share in the faith practices of my brothers and sisters in Christ…but I ascribed no “salvic/efficacious” effect by doing so…I responded to the grace of God in faith.

“Fulfillment” as “requirements” to salvation…while I do not believe they are necessary…I certainly see how they could be worshipful experiences and praise to the One Lord we have been baptized into through the Holy Spirit.

 

[Zooey]

Some of the most ritualistic people I ever met were Baptists.

Typical service:
Greeting
Opening hymn
Announcments
2nd hymn
Offering
3rd hymn
Sermon
Invitation hymn
Dismissal
Closing hymn

You left out the Pastoral prayer after the sermon.

And the pastoral prayer **before **the sermon.

Not to mention the hymn that is played as the pastor walks to the back of the church, & solemnly & dare I say, ritualistically], shakes the hand of each & every male in attendance as they ritualistically] process past him in single file.


If a lone Methodist happens to be visiting her Baptist relatives, she is liable to hear somebody stage whisper to the preacher that, “Its’ OK; I think that she is a Christian, even if she is still a :bigyikes: Methodist”.

(God only knows** what** those Baptist relatives would think of Publisher; they barel;y accept me, because they think that ** I **didn’t get wet enough at my baptism…)

 

[JustaServant]

And the pastoral prayer **before **the sermon.

Not to mention the hymn that is played as the pastor walks to the back of the church, & solemnly & dare I say, ritualistically], shakes the hand of each & every male in attendance as they ritualistically] process past him in single file.


If a lone Methodist happens to be visiting her Baptist relatives, she is liable to hear somebody stage whisper to the preacher that, “Its’ OK; I think that she is a Christian, even if she is still a :bigyikes: Methodist”.

When I was Baptist I visited a Methodist (actually the only) church in a small town. They had fixed prayers, Scripture readings, ect. I didnt consider any of it to be ritualistic. I found it to be quite beautiful.
Liturgical services are not for people with short attention spans.