The Bible Forbids Rituals?

[Zooey]

When I was Baptist I visited a Methodist (actually the only) church in a small town. They had fixed prayers, Scripture readings, ect. I didnt consider any of it to be ritualistic. I found it to be quite beautiful.
Liturgical services are not for people with short attention spans.

 

[You]

The “assumption” many Protestants make is that it is the “ritual” itself that dispenses grace apart from faith…just because a person has undergone a ritual means that somehow they have been a recipient of grace that wasn’t available to them without the ritual being performed…while it can be argued that a person who claims “I’m a Christian becaused I’ve been baptized…” yet lives like the devil is not a Christian on the one side…yet on the other…“He’s been baptized correctly…so…he’s a Christian.”

A Christian is not someone who has undergone rituals…but someone who lives a life of faith and trust in Christ…that is the difference and difficulty between Catholic/ritualistic faith traditions and Protestant/non-ritualistic traditions.which center not on the fact a ritual has been performed as “a means of grace”…but grace through faith…you’ll see it as an underlying current in every thread…some even defining being a “Christian” by baptism in water being conducted “correctly”…it “appears” that some people are saying that if the ritual is conducted “properly” with the “correct” words being spoken…one is a Christian…apart from an act of faith in Christ.

For Friends…and many other Protestants…access to God’s grace and mercy is by faith…apart from any “ritual” requirements of the Law.

There are many things one could say about this point of view. I will say that we are humans made of matter living in a creation made of matter, we are not angels made only of spirit. As humans we need to know when something is done. As at the pool at siloe God could have cured all these there waiting for a cure, but, being God, He knows the value of joining matter with His favour. The man slips into the water at the correct time and is healed.
Baptism He actually ordered as baptism in water with the correct form of words, in the name of etc.
The eucharist is a piece of unleavened bread which He held up in His hands and blessed and said this is my body, and earlier, unless you eat my body you will have no life in you.
The blind man was cured with mud and spittle.
The woman was cured only when she touched the hem of His garments.
But he laying his hands on every one of them, healed them.
We are material beings and this is the way He ordered it; He can do anything He wants to do and this is how He ordered it to be.

 

[Publisher]

There are many things one could say about this point of view. I will say that we are humans made of matter living in a creation made of matter, we are not angels made only of spirit. As humans we need to know when something is done. As at the pool at siloe God could have cured all these there waiting for a cure, but, being God, He knows the value of joining matter with His favour. The man slips into the water at the correct time and is healed.
Baptism He actually ordered as baptism in water with the correct form of words, in the name of etc.
The eucharist is a piece of unleavened bread which He held up in His hands and blessed and said this is my body, and earlier, unless you eat my body you will have no life in you.
The blind man was cured with mud and spittle.
The woman was cured only when she touched the hem of His garments.
But he laying his hands on every one of them, healed them.
We are material beings and this is the way He ordered it; He can do anything He wants to do and this is how He ordered it to be.

I understand that is your belief and the beliefs of your faith tradition…I do not believe “rituals” are required.

As one Friend wrote…"Christ has no body now on earth but yours, no hands but yours,no feet but yours; yours are the eyes through which Christ’s compassion looks out on the world, yours are the feet with which He is to go about doing good and yours are the hands with which He is to bless us now. -Teresa of Avila

We do not reject the spiritual realities toward which sacraments point. We recognize baptism as the transformation of life through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We recognize communion as the presence of Jesus Christ in our corporate worship. We recognize ordination as the diverse giftedness for ministry of all people. We recognize these things, and rejoice in them, but we do not believe that the church should seek to initiate them through ritual means.

Without getting too deep into theology, it is important to bring in here the fact that our understanding of the nature of the church is based on a realized eschatology of the new covenant. The old system has passed away, and Christ is present among us to lead us into an experience of the kingdom, here and now. Therefore, we reject all interim structures of authority, and seek in all ways to be obedient to the immediate leadership of Christ. As the Friends in Lausanne stated, “We believe that a corporate practice of the presence of God, a corporate knowledge of Christ in our midst, a common experience of the work of the living Spirit, constitute the supremely real sacrament of a Holy Communion.” (Nuhn, "A Quaker Perspective)

 

[Publisher]

I understand that is your belief and the beliefs of your faith tradition…I do not believe “rituals” are required.

As one Friend wrote…"Christ has no body now on earth but yours, no hands but yours,no feet but yours; yours are the eyes through which Christ’s compassion looks out on the world, yours are the feet with which He is to go about doing good and yours are the hands with which He is to bless us now. -Teresa of Avila

We do not reject the spiritual realities toward which sacraments point. We recognize baptism as the transformation of life through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We recognize communion as the presence of Jesus Christ in our corporate worship. We recognize ordination as the diverse giftedness for ministry of all people. We recognize these things, and rejoice in them, but we do not believe that the church should seek to initiate them through ritual means.

Without getting too deep into theology, it is important to bring in here the fact that our understanding of the nature of the church is based on a realized eschatology of the new covenant. The old system has passed away, and Christ is present among us to lead us into an experience of the kingdom, here and now. Therefore, we reject all interim structures of authority, and seek in all ways to be obedient to the immediate leadership of Christ. As the Friends in Lausanne stated, “We believe that a corporate practice of the presence of God, a corporate knowledge of Christ in our midst, a common experience of the work of the living Spirit, constitute the supremely real sacrament of a Holy Communion.” (Nuhn, "A Quaker Perspective)

We believe in a very real “earthy” expression of our faith…Life itself is a sacrament and it is our call to find “sacramental expression” in every facet of our lives…each meal…our employment choices…our marriages…our friendships…our familial relationships…our individual and corporate worship experiences…there is no separation from the “sacred” and the “secular”…God in Christ made human existence “sacramental” in scope.

 

[Publisher]

There are many things one could say about this point of view. I will say that we are humans made of matter living in a creation made of matter, we are not angels made only of spirit. As humans we need to know when something is done. As at the pool at siloe God could have cured all these there waiting for a cure, but, being God, He knows the value of joining matter with His favour. The man slips into the water at the correct time and is healed.
Baptism He actually ordered as baptism in water with the correct form of words, in the name of etc.
The eucharist is a piece of unleavened bread which He held up in His hands and blessed and said this is my body, and earlier, unless you eat my body you will have no life in you.
The blind man was cured with mud and spittle.
The woman was cured only when she touched the hem of His garments.
But he laying his hands on every one of them, healed them.
We are material beings and this is the way He ordered it; He can do anything He wants to do and this is how He ordered it to be.

We believe in a very real “earthy” expression of our faith…Life itself is a sacrament and it is our call to find “sacramental expression” in every facet of our lives…each meal…our employment choices…our marriages…our friendships…our familial relationships…our individual and corporate worship experiences…there is no separation from the “sacred” and the “secular”…God in Christ made human existence “sacramental” in scope.

 

[Nicea325]

ritual requirements for the dispensing of saving grace was fullfilled in christ.

Then why bother to institute the lord’s supper? A ritual!!! Reading Scripture at ANY Christian Church service on Sunday in itself is a ritual!

 

[You]

I understand that is your belief and the beliefs of your faith tradition…I do not believe “rituals” are required.

As one Friend wrote…"Christ has no body now on earth but yours, no hands but yours,no feet but yours; yours are the eyes through which Christ’s compassion looks out on the world, yours are the feet with which He is to go about doing good and yours are the hands with which He is to bless us now. -Teresa of Avila

We do not reject the spiritual realities toward which sacraments point. We recognize baptism as the transformation of life through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We recognize communion as the presence of Jesus Christ in our corporate worship. We recognize ordination as the diverse giftedness for ministry of all people. We recognize these things, and rejoice in them, but we do not believe that the church should seek to initiate them through ritual means.

Without getting too deep into theology, it is important to bring in here the fact that our understanding of the nature of the church is based on a realized eschatology of the new covenant. The old system has passed away, and Christ is present among us to lead us into an experience of the kingdom, here and now. Therefore, we reject all interim structures of authority, and seek in all ways to be obedient to the immediate leadership of Christ. As the Friends in Lausanne stated, “We believe that a corporate practice of the presence of God, a corporate knowledge of Christ in our midst, a common experience of the work of the living Spirit, constitute the supremely real sacrament of a Holy Communion.” (Nuhn, "A Quaker Perspective)

The thread title, to remind myself, is ‘The Bible Forbids Rituals?’
And the answers is, no.
Without the bible, obviously, there would be no rituals.
If the sacraments were distributed by God with a thought but not with a word or a sign to people so they would be unknowing recipients then it just would not work. For angels in heaven they could receive a sacrament only by a thought of God because they are pure spirit living in Gods spirit, including matter in the ritual would not be necessary. They would know by other means when they had received the sacrament.
Don’t ignore your material reality, nor the reality that you do not see or know God directly as the angels do. Nobody is able to deny that the sacraments as we know them were established by Jesus Christ. Christ said to you, this is my body, and st. paul warned you against eating His body unworthily shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.
Its not a belief of mine, nor an option, nor a sign or empty symbol. It is real matter with real effect with real consequences for every person who receives it, whether they be worthy or unworthy recipients. I stress this is not my belief nor my idea but Jesus Christs.

 

[Publisher]

Then why bother to institute the lord’s supper? A ritual!!! Reading Scripture at ANY Christian Church service on Sunday in itself is a ritual!

RITUAL REQUIREMENTS FOR THE DISPENSING OF SAVING GRACE was fullfilled in Christ.

Life is filled with rituals…I have a “ritual” when I first get up…without fail…7 days a week…365 days a year…I feed the cats…fix my coffee…turn on the stereo…sit down in my favorite chair and wait for the coffee pot to burp…then I read and drink coffee for an hour or so before work…on week-ends…instead of going to work…I have errands…but the “ritual order of getting up out of bed” remains the same.

It is not rituals or ritual remberances…it is ascribing saving efficacious grace in participating in them…all ritual requirements of the Law were fulfilled in Christ…he didn’t dispense with “ritual”…just the “ritual requirements” of receiving salvic grace.

We must be speaking past one another…you seem to believe we are saying all ritual is forbidden…which we obviously are not…so perhaps the issue lies elsewhere…hmmmm?

 

[Publisher]

The thread title, to remind myself, is ‘The Bible Forbids Rituals?’
And the answers is, no.
Without the bible, obviously, there would be no rituals.
If the sacraments were distributed by God with a thought but not with a word or a sign to people so they would be unknowing recipients then it just would not work. For angels in heaven they could receive a sacrament only by a thought of God because they are pure spirit living in Gods spirit, including matter in the ritual would not be necessary. They would know by other means when they had received the sacrament.
Don’t ignore your material reality, nor the reality that you do not see or know God directly as the angels do. Nobody is able to deny that the sacraments as we know them were established by Jesus Christ. Christ said to you, this is my body, and st. paul warned you against eating His body unworthily shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.
Its not a belief of mine, nor an option, nor a sign or empty symbol. It is real matter with real effect with real consequences for every person who receives it, whether they be worthy or unworthy recipients. I stress this is not my belief nor my idea but Jesus Christs.

I realize you believe Jesus requires ritualistic expression in order to receive his grace…Friends do not.

 

[You]

I realize you believe Jesus requires ritualistic expression in order to receive his grace…Friends do not.

No, I don’t believe it, I know it, because He said it; unless you eat my flesh you will have no life in you, He believes it, He said it, not me.

Do you understand, your sentence now reads;

I realize Jesus believes I require ritualistic expression in order to receive his grace or life…Friends do not.

 

[SonCatcher]

Publisher,

Even though St. Teresa of Avila is most certainly a friend of God, your use of capitalization is misleading (though most users in this forum will correctly identify her as Catholic). She was not a member of the Society of Friends.

 

[Publisher]

Publisher,

Even though St. Teresa of Avila is most certainly a friend of God, your use of capitalization is misleading (though most users in this forum will correctly identify her as Catholic). She was not a member of the Society of Friends.

Yes friend I realize she was a Catholic…her quote was within “” of the Friend’s article I quoted…didn’t think anyone would believe I was trying to be misleading…so if you were misled…I apologize…it was completely unintentional.

 

[Publisher]

No, I don’t believe it, I know it, because He said it; unless you eat my flesh you will have no life in you, He believes it, He said it, not me.

Do you understand, your sentence now reads;

I realize Jesus believes I require ritualistic expression in order to receive his grace or life…Friends do not.

Friends do not believe we need rituals to receive the grace of God in Christ. I understand you do…or you “know” you do…but I do not…“know” or “believe” that to be the case.

 

[SonCatcher]

Yes friend I realize she was a Catholic…her quote was within “” of the Friend’s article I quoted…didn’t think anyone would believe I was trying to be misleading…so if you were misled…I apologize…it was completely unintentional.

I understand. It can be difficult to vet jargon out of copied sources. (I would expect that use in a Friends’ periodical, even)

 

[andrewstx]

Publisher I find your remarks interesting, but I am not interested in converting to the Friends.

As I understand Friends worship is mostly silent and mental.

Besides having a decided tatse for the rituals and sacraments of the Catholic church, I had a bad stroke 6 years ago, and even before I had AADD. I cannot concentrate for more than a short period. IOW I am sorry but Quaker but worship would likely induce me to sleeep.

 

[Nicea325]

RITUAL REQUIREMENTS FOR THE DISPENSING OF SAVING GRACE was fullfilled in Christ.

Life is filled with rituals…I have a “ritual” when I first get up…without fail…7 days a week…365 days a year…I feed the cats…fix my coffee…turn on the stereo…sit down in my favorite chair and wait for the coffee pot to burp…then I read and drink coffee for an hour or so before work…on week-ends…instead of going to work…I have errands…but the “ritual order of getting up out of bed” remains the same.

It is not rituals or ritual remberances…it is ascribing saving efficacious grace in participating in them…all ritual requirements of the Law were fulfilled in Christ…he didn’t dispense with “ritual”…just the “ritual requirements” of receiving salvic grace.

We must be speaking past one another…you seem to believe we are saying all ritual is forbidden…which we obviously are not…so perhaps the issue lies elsewhere…hmmmm?

Exactly! So apparently fulfillment does not equate into eradication or else we also would not have churches to worship in,Sunday Services,etc,etc,etc. If Christ eradicated it ALL then there would be no need for His Church or any religious ritual.

 

[Zenas]

As already stated, we do not know what is in the hearts of each outer. Maybe this person was unusually stressed because of some catastrophic event in their lives; maybe they had been away from the Rosary for too long and were excited to be back, the list could go on and on. So why would you judge a person this way. At least this person was praying, let us not judge their intent or their hearts.

The instance I had in mind was a public Rosary being held in a church before Mass. There were 25-30 people present. The leader would read a short scripture and then recite a Hail Mary as if he were trying to get through it as fast as possible. So fast you could not tell what he was saying unless you knew what it was. The other people who said the “Holy Mary, Mother of God” part seemed more into it and were at least understandable.

I wouldn’t pretend to know what was in this person’s heart but if appearances mean anything, all he cared about was getting it done.

 

[JustaServant]

The instance I had in mind was a public Rosary being held in a church before Mass. There were 25-30 people present. The leader would read a short scripture and then recite a Hail Mary as if he were trying to get through it as fast as possible. So fast you could not tell what he was saying unless you knew what it was. The other people who said the “Holy Mary, Mother of God” part seemed more into it and were at least understandable.

I wouldn’t pretend to know what was in this person’s heart but if appearances mean anything, all he cared about was getting it done.

That’s still not your call. You have no idea what is in someone elses heart. That is the realm of God alone.

 

[Zenas]

That’s still not your call. You have no idea what is in someone elses heart. That is the realm of God alone.

I think that’s exactly what I said, “I wouldn’t pretend to know what was in this person’s heart.” Yet I know that appearances are often revealing. I spend a lot of time in my business negotiating deals with others and I know that their true thoughts are often revealed not by what they say but by how they say it.

 

[AntalKalnoky]

The instance I had in mind was a public Rosary being held in a church before Mass. There were 25-30 people present. The leader would read a short scripture and then recite a Hail Mary as if he were trying to get through it as fast as possible. So fast you could not tell what he was saying unless you knew what it was. The other people who said the “Holy Mary, Mother of God” part seemed more into it and were at least understandable.

I wouldn’t pretend to know what was in this person’s heart but if appearances mean anything, all he cared about was getting it done.

Isn’t a too rapid Group prayer better than none? And their Hearts were in Prayer, to Christ and His Mother. (The Rosary is All Bible… and all Christ, from Mary’s view…)