The Bible Forbids Rituals?

[paulquimz2]

Bohym Bawerk got it about right with his explanation. However, if you ask for specific scripture, I believe most would go to Matthew 6:7: “And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words."

Protestants always quoted Matt.6:7 to critizised Catholics devotional prayer or accused Catholics as doing vain repetiti:shrug::shrugn of prayer. I hope this is not your intention.
Do the Catholics used meaningless repetition as the Gentles do ? Can you site any catholic’s prayer with meaningless repetition…Do you understand the meaningless prayer did the Gentiles do? Our Lord Jesus did the repetition prayer when he was in the agony in the garden thrice. Is Hail Mary full of grace the lord is with you… is a meaningless prayer? ,but it was said by the angel and it is biblical. Catholics used to do format prayer but I think there is no such thing meaningless prayer as long it is intended to God for praising, honoring ,asking petition ,worshiping etc… and when it comes from you heart with sincerity and love. By the way Catholics are not Gentiles , and what things here on earth that doesn’t repeat by itself ?

 

[chuckfrmvalyfrg]

Coming from a Friend’s background, what seems to be “missing” from all your responses is the reason many…Friends included…do not necessarily practice a “ritualistic” style of worship is the belief that just performing a ritual DOES NOT in and of itself “confer grace”…grace comes from God’s working in our lives through faith.

Example…the ritual of water baptism…those of you who practice water baptism of children do so to “confer grace” to them…that somehow God cannot…or will not dispense His grace without the enactment of a ritual.

The “sacramental” aspect of the rites and rituals is what is objected to…

Catholics will not accept the baptism of other groups unless the “correct formula” is stated over the one being baptized…

The eucharist is not considered valid unless the correct words and gestures and person performs those gestures and speaks the correct words…

From someone outside a sacramental style of theology, the requirements of the “correct words” and “gestures” and “matter” sounds a whole lot like “ceremonial magick”…where correct gestures and words and ritual implements are requirements to have a sucessful “ritual”.

That God cannot…or will not…dispense His grace to an individual through the act of their faith in Him is foreign to many people’s faith tradition.

Yes…Baptists have a set form of worship…HOWEVER they do not believe that perfoming that ritual in and of itself causes God to dispense grace to the individual.

Friends believe that all ritual requirements…RITUAL REQUIREMENTS which the Law perscribed has been fulfilled in Christ…therefor NO RITUAL is required to receive God’s grace and mercy.

Friends believe in sacraments…life itself is a sacrament…the ‘secular’ and the ‘sacred’ are not separated…each act of kindness holds sacramental “possibility”…every meal is an opportunity to experience the “sacramental reality” of Christ truly present…each time we move our hands to lift a brother up…or move our hands to calm a frightened child…each word of kindess and each act of compassion is an opportunity to receive “sacramental grace”.

The underlying belief is NOT “rituals are forbidden”…but that ritulas in and of themselves only point to a Reality of life that we should be engaging in already as the People of God.

Each vocation people of faith engage in carries with it “holy orders”…whether minister, priest, street sweeper, computer operator or physician.

Marriage is sacramental in it’s very nature…no one can “confer” the sacramental Reality of two joining together in “symbolic re-enactment” of Christ and His People. The couple join together “in the sight of God and these friends” in faith that God is at the center.

“Means of Grace” occur whether institurtionalizef rituals occur or no…not because of ritual and “correct” words and gestures…we receive grace through faith.

Ritual acts and words do not confer grace…faith confers grace…abundantly.

We are not physical beings having a spiritual experience , rather we are spiritual beings having a physical experience . Christ assumed a physical , human form and willingly engaged in numerous rituals . He was circumcised , participated in numerous Passover rituals , he was baptized by John the Baptist and instituted the Eucharist . Why did Christ instruct his Apstles to go forth and teach all nations and to baptize them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost ? If that doesn’t sound like a ritual then I don’t understand the meaning of ritual . The Jews have survived in large part because of their rituals and traditions . Humans need rituals because of our physical experience/nature and God knew this .

Re: Matrimony , the couple marries themselves , the Priest simply officiates

What I’m not sure of is whether you don’t understand the Catholic teaching on Sacraments and Grace or whether you do and just reject it .

What I do know is that your beliefs re: Sacraments and Grace were not held by theApostles , the Early Church Fathers or the Catholic Church at any time ( or by the Eastern Orthodox ) . So what is the basis of your position ? Have you ever read the Catechism of the Catholic Church on this subject ?

 

[Publisher]

We are not physical beings having a spiritual experience , rather we are spiritual beings having a physical experience . Christ assumed a physical , human form and willingly engaged in numerous rituals . He was circumcised , participated in numerous Passover rituals , he was baptized by John the Baptist and instituted the Eucharist . Why did Christ instruct his Apstles to go forth and teach all nations and to baptize them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost ? If that doesn’t sound like a ritual then I don’t understand the meaning of ritual . The Jews have survived in large part because of their rituals and traditions . Humans need rituals because of our physical experience/nature and God knew this .

Re: Matrimony , the couple marries themselves , the Priest simply officiates

What I’m not sure of is whether you don’t understand the Catholic teaching on Sacraments and Grace or whether you do and just reject it .

What I do know is that your beliefs re: Sacraments and Grace were not held by theApostles , the Early Church Fathers or the Catholic Church at any time ( or by the Eastern Orthodox ) . So what is the basis of your position ? Have you ever read the Catechism of the Catholic Church on this subject ?

Yes, I have read large portions of the Catechism and I’ve been on this forum for several years…I have a fairly good “working knowledge” of what the Catholic church teaches…I simply do not believe it’s teachings concerning sacraments or the need of a priesthood to implement them…I understand about grace…I have been it’s recipient and I am astounded by the depth, height and width of the grace of God in Christ.

 

[Nicea325]

No offense taken friend, if on the Last Day I find I was wrong…I will throw myself on the mercy and love of God in Christ…and I will accept in faith and trust whatever comes from His Hands…He knows my heart…He sees rightly and deals justly…I am in Good Hands.

Consider me “invincilbly ignorant”

Fair enough… By the way, you are not ignorant.

 

[Publisher]

Fair enough… By the way, you are not ignorant.

LOL…thank you…I have come to believe one of the best expressions of faith is found in Job…“Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him.”

 

[SonCatcher]

I beg your pardon? It is God (Jesus) who said those words,what is there one cannot comprehend? Sadly,the Jews who left pretty much preceded your path-no offense.

Scripture is not self-interpreting. One must be instructed how to interpret it. The Quaker traditions concerning interpretation are clearly different from the Catholic ones so learning something new from the other’s interpretation necessitates whatever common interpretation tools we have.

 

[Nicea325]

LOL…thank you…I have come to believe one of the best expressions of faith is found in Job…“Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him.”

 

[Nicea325]

Scripture is not self-interpreting. One must be instructed how to interpret it. The Quaker traditions concerning interpretation are clearly different from the Catholic ones so learning something new from the other’s interpretation necessitates whatever common interpretation tools we have.

Unfortunately I have heard many non-Catholics tell me scripture is self-interpreting? :ehh:

 

[Publisher]

Unfortunately I have heard many non-Catholics tell me scripture is self-interpreting? :ehh:

I would venture to guess…they weren’t Quakers.

 

[SonCatcher]

Unfortunately I have heard many non-Catholics tell me scripture is self-interpreting? :ehh:

According to their tradition.

Ironically, they tend to “self-interpret” scripture by isolating verses from their context.

 

[Nicea325]

I would venture to guess…they weren’t Quakers.

Indeed no Quaker has told me such a belief,but moreover, it usually comes from fundamentalists.

 

[Nicea325]

According to their tradition.

Ironically, they tend to “self-interpret” scripture by isolating verses from their context.

Yes according to their tradition. Actually that is another one which always pops-up with many non-Catholics: traditions. I friend once told me:

Catholics have a lot of man-made traditions. So I replied: Yes so do you because you belong to a Protestant church and that in itself is a man-made church with its own traditions. He had no response…

 

[George_Stegmeir]

All the foregoing arguments proove is that you can justify and proove almost any theological point of view by quoting the Bible. How do you think that all protestabts justicy their ga-zillion number of sects?
And atheists just use these arguments to stir up trouble on sites just as this. The point being that such arguments on the internet are futile. No ones beliefs on the matter are going to be changed and all you are doing is wasting time.

 

[nice2000]

Yes according to their tradition. Actually that is another one which always pops-up with many non-Catholics: traditions. I friend once told me:

Catholics have a lot of man-made traditions. So I replied: Yes so do you because you belong to a Protestant church and that in itself is a man-made church with its own traditions. He had no response…

I like that answer.

 

[Nicea325]

I like that answer.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

LOL…you and friend Jim should get together and coordinate…he didn’t mention Mary.

Since I do not share your faith tradition…I disagree…but then you knew we would.

The fact that I didn’t mention Mary signifies nothing.

I again point out that the religious ritualism in Christianity began in Judaism and was continued in the Catholic Church, founded by Christ in A.D. 33 and taught by her leaders, the Apostles. The first Mass was celebrated by Jesus at the Last Supper, a ritualistic sedar meal. Christ ordained the Apostles as priests and bishops to continue His ritual through the ages, and they, in turn, ordained others – “Do THIS in remembrance of me” {i.e., offer the Sacrifice of His body and blood – the Eucharist – to the Father forever.)

Protestantism began in the 16th century and is divorced from Christian history. Consequently, Protestants have made their own rules of belief and worship and do not follow the teaching and traditions of the Apostles in any of the thousands of conflicting and competing denominations.

The Quakers (Religious Society of Friends) originated in the mid-1600’s. It is your choice not to follow the teaching of the Apostles, but you can’t expect those of us whose beliefs and practices come from Christ and the Apostles in the first century to follow your “traditions,” which were man-made 17 centuries later.

If Quakerism had been relied upon to spread Christianity, where would we be? There were 339,933 Quakers in the world in the year 2000.

quakerinfo.com/memb2000.shtml

"Since we do not share your faith tradition…we disagree…but then you knew we would. "

O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.

 

[Publisher]

The fact that I didn’t mention Mary signifies nothing.

I again point out that the religious ritualism in Christianity began in Judaism and was continued in the Catholic Church, founded by Christ in A.D. 33 and taught by her leaders, the Apostles. The first Mass was celebrated by Jesus at the Last Supper, a ritualistic sedar meal. Christ ordained the Apostles as priests and bishops to continue His ritual through the ages, and they, in turn, ordained others – “Do THIS in remembrance of me” {i.e., offer the Sacrifice of His body and blood – the Eucharist – to the Father forever.)

Protestantism began in the 16th century and is divorced from Christian history. Consequently, Protestants have made their own rules of belief and worship and do not follow the teaching and traditions of the Apostles in any of the thousands of conflicting and competing denominations.

The Quakers (Religious Society of Friends) originated in the mid-1600’s. It is your choice not to follow the teaching of the Apostles, but you can’t expect those of us whose beliefs and practices come from Christ and the Apostles in the first century to follow your “traditions,” which were man-made 17 centuries later.

If Quakerism had been relied upon to spread Christianity, where would we be? There were 339,933 Quakers in the world in the year 2000.

quakerinfo.com/memb2000.shtml

"Since we do not share your faith tradition…we disagree…but then you knew we would. "

O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.

Friend if I truly believed the particular claims of your ecclesial community were true…I would be Catholic…but I do not find it’s claims compelling…that is why I am a Friend…I embrace my own spiritual freedom in the liberty I have in Christ Jesus to 'work out my own salvation"

Quakerism has taught for 350 years the responsibility of the individual to come to know Him and live according to the Light Within…recognizing “that of God” within our neighbors and seek to …“Be patterns, be examples in all countries, places, islands, nations, wherever you come; that your carriage and life may preach among all sorts of people, and to them. Then you will come to walk cheerfully over the world, answering that of God in everyone.”

My particular faith community does not proselytize but offers a place for Seekers worship together and recognize God in our midst and in one another…so no one is requesting…nor expecting…you to change your belief system…if your faith tradition makes sense to you and draws you closer to God…if it causes you to be gentle and loving with your neighbor…if it brings you joy and causes you to offer mercy and compassion to those who also wear the face of Christ in our midst…why should you change?

 

[mwok]

Friend if I truly believed the particular claims of your ecclesial community were true…I would be Catholic…but I do not find it’s claims compelling…that is why I am a Friend…I embrace my own spiritual freedom in the liberty I have in Christ Jesus to 'work out my own salvation"

Quakerism has taught for 350 years the responsibility of the individual to come to know Him and live according to the Light Within…recognizing “that of God” within our neighbors and seek to …“Be patterns, be examples in all countries, places, islands, nations, wherever you come; that your carriage and life may preach among all sorts of people, and to them. Then you will come to walk cheerfully over the world, answering that of God in everyone.”

My particular faith community does not proselytize but offers a place for Seekers worship together and recognize God in our midst and in one another…so no one is requesting…nor expecting…you to change your belief system…if your faith tradition makes sense to you and draws you closer to God…if it causes you to be gentle and loving with your neighbor…if it brings you joy and causes you to offer mercy and compassion to those who also wear the face of Christ in our midst…why should you change?

One thing that comes to mind is that even some beliefs meant in love are wrong and can be offensive, such as someone lovingly suggest another to have an abortion.

 

[SonCatcher]

Yes according to their tradition. Actually that is another one which always pops-up with many non-Catholics: traditions. I friend once told me:

Catholics have a lot of man-made traditions. So I replied: Yes so do you because you belong to a Protestant church and that in itself is a man-made church with its own traditions. He had no response…

This reminds me of another response I heard:

“We have our 15 commandments just like you. The 10 in the Bible and 5 extras. The difference is that our 5 extras are written in stone while your 5 extras are whatever your pastor’s hot buttons are this week.”

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Friend if I truly believed the particular claims of your ecclesial community were true…I would be Catholic…but I do not find it’s claims compelling…that is why I am a Friend…I embrace my own spiritual freedom in the liberty I have in Christ Jesus to 'work out my own salvation"

Quakerism has taught for 350 years the responsibility of the individual to come to know Him and live according to the Light Within…recognizing “that of God” within our neighbors and seek to …“Be patterns, be examples in all countries, places, islands, nations, wherever you come; that your carriage and life may preach among all sorts of people, and to them. Then you will come to walk cheerfully over the world, answering that of God in everyone.”

My particular faith community does not proselytize but offers a place for Seekers worship together and recognize God in our midst and in one another…so no one is requesting…nor expecting…you to change your belief system…if your faith tradition makes sense to you and draws you closer to God…if it causes you to be gentle and loving with your neighbor…if it brings you joy and causes you to offer mercy and compassion to those who also wear the face of Christ in our midst…why should you change?

This is relativism. You have your faith, and I have mine. They both are “true.” “Truth” is whatever one wants to believe. There is no objective religious truth. Christ and the Apostles taught no “truth.” Therefore, “truth” has no meaning. I might as well have remained an atheist. Been there, done that.