The Bible is Catholic -

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Well - after nearly 24 hours, my friend, Protestant101, refuses to tell me, -
a person ignorant of anything christian, -
how two copies of the inerrant “The Word of God” can have different numbers of books in them.
He has left me sitting at the table with no guidance.
Just an expectation that I should accept this book on his say so.
James; you are funny! I didn’t know you had me on your egg timer to see how long it takes me to “answer.”

Keeping it simple for now, the apocrypha has some key doctrinal assertions which are in direct contradiction of clearly laid out Bible doctrines, and this is how Christians can know the “inspiration” or lack, thereof, in the writings of the Protestant Canon, as opposed to the Catholic Apocrypha.

But to say that the Bible is Catholic is just plain wrong, no matter which Canon you favor. Catholics, like many other denominations, compiled their own preferent writings. Only 66 books of the Catholic Canon are “inspired.”
 
Just for information only for items to consider:

Torah, Hebrew scriptures, translated into greek, called the “Septuagint” ( 70) Jews 2nd century took out 7 books from the old testament, no Hebrew counterparts: The Roman Catholic church comprises a list of books for the Mass. Other books started to circulate, 300’s a.d, The Catholic church comprised a list of approved books to be used in the liturgy of the Mass. these books were canonized over and over by different saints, bishops, and Popes, in a period of three to four hundred years, until a Pope stated no more councils needed this canonized books let no one add or subtract from them.

Then eleven or twelve hundred years later of Traditional Catholic practice, the Protestants removed 7 of the canonized books. Why? Because Luther used the same reason the Jews did no Hebrew counterpart, to the greek septuagint text among other reasons. 1947 Hebrew counterparts were found in the dead sea scrolls, discrediting Luthers reasons for taken out the seven books from the already existing Catholic bible already in existance for over 12 centuries.
 
But to say that the Bible is Catholic is just plain wrong, no matter which Canon you favor. Catholics, like many other denominations, compiled their own preferent writings. Only 66 books of the Catholic Canon are “inspired.”
Oh, OK, then. :rolleyes: Are you trying to say that there were “denominations” of Christianity prior to the Reformation and they each compiled their own version of the canon? If so, that is certainly a creative theory. It’s almost Mormon-like in its complete and utter disregard for actual historical facts.
 
James; you are funny! I didn’t know you had me on your egg timer to see how long it takes me to “answer.”
I didn’t think I should need an “egg timer” for such a fundemental question. If you are witnessing to me and helping them learn about Chritianity I sure would expect you to be able such a basic question off the top of your head.
Keeping it simple for now, the apocrypha has some key doctrinal assertions which are in direct contradiction of clearly laid out Bible doctrines, and this is how Christians can know the “inspiration” or lack, thereof, in the writings of the Protestant Canon, as opposed to the Catholic Apocrypha.
OK, now keeping in the spirit of the previous scenerio, your using terms that I don’t understand.
First of all, what is “apocrypha”. I don’t see any book in my friends Bible titled “apocrypha.”
Secondly, are you telling me that the “Catholics” added books to the origonal Christian Bible?

Peace
James
 
Keeping it simple for now, the apocrypha has some key doctrinal assertions which are in direct contradiction of clearly laid out Bible doctrines, and this is how Christians can know the “inspiration” or lack, thereof, in the writings of the Protestant Canon, as opposed to the Catholic Apocrypha.
Your assertion doesn’t make sense.
The deuterocanonical books were part of the original Bible,and the Church fathers never objected to anything in them,nor did the fathers say that those books were uninspired.
 
Your assertion doesn’t make sense.
The deuterocanonical books were part of the original Bible,and the Church fathers never objected to anything in them,nor did the fathers say that those books were uninspired.
Notice how his “miracle church” that could not save a single soul before the 1800s, is so much more authoritative than ours!

I wonder why the oldest organization on earth is the Catholic church, which was not founded by man, but by Christ? All man-made organizations of that time and for centuries since have faded into history. Since the Lutheran church and its thousands of derivatives are now one-quarter as old as the Catholic, it is like the 15 year old telling the 60 year old grandparent all about life. We are amused. We pray that God is, as well. This is not arrogance. It is confidence.

Christ’s peace.
 
Jan Hus
William Tyndale
After Hus was sentenced by the church for heresy (btw, he was asked several times to recant and save himself) he was handed over to the secular powers, who then followed through with what was then considered, capital punishment (through the centuries this took on many different forms; today it’s either the electric chair or injection). The C.C. didn’t personally execute him.

William Tyndale was killed by King Henry 8TH for political reasons, and his death was **opposed most strenuously by Archbishop Cranmer. **

Martin Luther was responsible for the slaughter of over 100,000 Protestant German peasants as well as condoning the torture and death of Prostestants and others who disagreed with him. As you can see this is pointless bickering.

There is not one Catholic or Protestant alive today who participated in the Inquisition. They all died centuries ago. Every one of them had to face God. God knows the heart of every individual involved and justice has been served. These incidents happened during one of the most brutal and savage times in human history, which any medieval movie will confirm. It has become a theme that some Evangelicals pastors have repeatedly preached to their congregations about Catholics.

Pope John Paul II admitted the wrong actions of the Catholic Church throughout history, including some tortures and deaths related to the medieval Inquisitions. The following is a letter he wrote recounting his sorrow:
The institution of the Inquisition has been abolished…the children of the Church cannot but return with a spirit of repentance to “the acquiescence given, especially in certain centuries, to intolerance and even the use of violence in the service of the truth”
The prayer I addressed to God on that occasion contains the reasons for a request for forgiveness that can also be applied to the tragedies associated with the Inquisition, as well as to the injuries to memory that result from it.
The institution of the Inquisition has been
abolished…the children of the Church cannot but return with a spirit of repentance to “the acquiescence given, especially in certain centuries, to intolerance and even the use of violence in the service of the truth.”

“Lord, God of all men and women, in certain periods of history. Christians have at times given in to [forms of] intolerance and have not been faithful to the great commandment of love, sullying in this way the face of the Church, your Spouse. Have mercy on your sinful children and accept our resolve to seek and promote truth in the gentleness of charity, in the firm knowledge that truth can prevail only in virtue of truth itself. We ask this through Christ Our Lord”
Code:
(Prayer for Forgiveness, Day of Pardon, 12 March, II; ORE, 22 March 2000, p.).
JOHN PAUL II, From the Vatican, 15 June 2004
The criticisms we find today about the Inquisition put Catholics in a difficult position. There are incredible exaggerations floating around in the secular media and among Evangelicals, yet if a Catholic corrects the exaggerations then he is accused of making excuses for the Inquisition. That does not have to be the case any more considering the fact that in 1998 the Vatican opened the archives of the Holy Office (the modern successor to the Inquisition) to a team of 30 scholars from around the world. Now at last the scholars have made their report, an 800-page tome that was unveiled at a press conference in Rome on Tuesday. Its most startling conclusion is that the Inquisition was not so bad after all. Torture was rare and only about 1 percent of those brought before the Spanish Inquisition were actually executed. As one headline read “Vatican Downsizes Inquisition.”
nationalreview.com/comment/madden200406181026.asp

Excerpt from article:
“The Inquisition was not born out of desire to crush diversity or oppress people; it was rather an attempt to stop unjust executions. Yes, you read that correctly.”

One of the drawbacks of being 2000 years old is that there are incidents throughout history that people can point at and hold against the Catholic Church. I expect that two thousand years from now, if the Evangelical Church remains (and if the Lord hasn’t come back yet), there may be some shameful bits of history that people who want to criticize the Evangelical Church will be able to seize upon.

For instance, many Evangelical/Baptist Christians defended and participated in the slave trade which was responsible for thousands of beatings, tortures and deaths on slave ships. They did this with Bible in hand. The Vatican (Catholic Church) always condemned of the slave trade.

By the end of the Inquisition, the Reformation was in full swing. Martin Luther, Calvin, the Church of England, other Protestant Churches and their followers were quoting Scripture while burning witches throughout England, Scotland, America, Germany and elsewhere.

From the years 1305-1750A.D. there were 52 Popes. Of all of them, only two are being considered for Canonization by the Church. Blessed Urban V (1362-70) and Blessed Innocent XI (1676-89). Compare that with other periods of history where every century provided two or three Saints from among the Popes. This gives us a bit of a sense that it was a dark time in history.

The tortures and deaths of the Inquisition are inexcusable and the Church has paid a high price for it. The Church has been punished and is still being punished. Early reformers fueled much of their Reform movement by publicizing, and sometimes exaggerating, the injustices of the Spanish Inquisition.

What many Evangelicals don’t know is that there was also a Protestant Inquisition after the Reform. Protestants also fell into a similar myopic approach to silencing dissenting views. It was not a “warm fuzzy” Holy Spirit environment back in the early days of the Reform. Tens of thousands of non-Anglicans were killed in England. It was brutal. In America, the Puritans (Protestants) also conducted an Inquisition where people were burned at the stake.

FACT is, people thought differently in those days. Human rights, freedom of conscience, religious freedom and pluralism were concepts that grew out of experience and maturity of society and through doctrinal maturity. These concepts did not come into being until the last hundred years or so. Even the early reformers were not into “freedom of religion” and “free speech”. Martin Luther said:

There are others who teach in opposition to some recognized article of faith which is manifestly grounded on Scripture . . . Heretics of this sort must not be tolerated, but punished as open blasphemers . . . If anyone wishes to preach or to teach, let him make known the call or the command which impels him to do so, or else let him keep silence. If he will not keep quiet, then let the civil authorities command the scoundrel to his rightful master - namely, Master Hans *. (Janssen, X, 222; EA, Bd. 39, 250-258; Commentary on 82nd Psalm, 1530; cf. Durant, 423, Grisar, VI, 26-27)

We must remember that historical context is difficult to understand for those of us who were not there. The Church, all churches for that matter, is on a pilgrimage, constantly adapting to the times. This will be the case until Jesus returns. We can continue as catholic’s and protestants to censure and condemn each other for things our forefathers are guilty of (and are now facing their maker for those atrocities; YIKES), or we can move on and learn from their mistakes and strive for unity. I guarantee, that is what Jesus Christ would want!!!👍 👍 👍

God bless…*
 
Notice how his “miracle church” that could not save a single soul before the 1800s, is so much more authoritative than ours!

I wonder why the oldest organization on earth is the Catholic church, which was not founded by man, but by Christ? All man-made organizations of that time and for centuries since have faded into history. Since the Lutheran church and its thousands of derivatives are now one-quarter as old as the Catholic, it is like the 15 year old telling the 60 year old grandparent all about life. We are amused. We pray that God is, as well. This is not arrogance. It is confidence.

Christ’s peace.
“To refuse to follow the Fathers, not holding their declaration of more authority than one’s own opinion, is conduct worthy of blame, as being brimful of self-sufficiency.” Basil, Epistle To the Canonicae, 52:1 (A.D. 370).

“All heresies, that they evermore delight in profane novelties, scorn the decisions of antiquity, and …make shipwreck of the faith. On the other hand, it is the sure characteristic of Catholics to keep that which has been committed to their trust by the holy Fathers…” Vincent of Lerins, Commonitory of the Anitquity and Universality of the Catholic Faith, 24:63 (A.D. 434).
 
“To refuse to follow the Fathers, not holding their declaration of more authority than one’s own opinion, is conduct worthy of blame, as being brimful of self-sufficiency.” Basil, Epistle To the Canonicae, 52:1 (A.D. 370).

“All heresies, that they evermore delight in profane novelties, scorn the decisions of antiquity, and …make shipwreck of the faith. On the other hand, it is the sure characteristic of Catholics to keep that which has been committed to their trust by the holy Fathers…” Vincent of Lerins, Commonitory of the Anitquity and Universality of the Catholic Faith, 24:63 (A.D. 434).
Amen! Well quoted. 👍
 
Hi SIA; Roman Catholicism is Orthodox. If you are referring to the Eastern Catholic Orthodox. Roman Catholicism is Orthodox by antiquity, the Eastern Catholics are Orthodox by title., Unless you are speaking about another orthodoxy?

If this orthodox christianity that you speak of: has anything different from the historical records and facts that prove that the Roman Catholic church canonized the bible books. I would like to hear what difference they have to say, and I am sure their bishops would too, Not to mention the early greek and latin Saints who all agree that the bible was canonized by the Roman Catholic church of St. Peter,and the Magesterium of Jesus Vicar on earth.

Ps. Did you know the last five Epistles of the New testament was written to the Catholic (universal) church?

You dont ask an easy question that gets answered in one sentence. The dialogue will consist of scripture and Tradition, and historical facts, from pagans, Jews, and Rulers who confirm the Roman Catholic canonized books of the bible, not to mention Luther himself. Why is it so hard to accept these facts that the bible was canonized by the Roman Catholic church? All the learned world knows this fact, why dont you?
I’m not interested in your word games. I am speaking of the Orthodox church who would have strong opposition to Roman Catholics referring to only themselves as being the earliest of Christians. You know what I am talking about.
 
In other words it was OK to kill them because of this??
Killing people for heresy was not “more” OK than it was when Catholics were killed for their faith. Nobody gets away with clean hands on this one.

This thread is about the indisputable role of the Catholic Church in determining the canon of Scripture.
 
This is exactly what Protestants have been saying. Reform is needed.
In the Catholic Church, this has long since happened. Is happening today. Will happen until the end of time. The days of “protest” are over.
Not just one denomination wrote the Bible; or is privy to understanding it.
The Church is not a denomination. Denominations are all those who reject the Church but attempt to appropriate the Word of God without the Body of Christ.
Jesus Himself said that we do not live by “bread alone;” but by “EVERY Word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” (Mat. 4:4). The life that Christ gives to the world is in His Word. it was by His Word that Jesus healed diseases and cast out demons. By His Word he stillled the sea and raised the dead. The people often bore witness that His Word was with power. He spoke the Word of God, just as He had spoken through all the prophets and teachers of the Old Testament. It cannot be denied how that the whole Bible is a manifestation of Christ, and how the Savior desired to fix the faith of His followers upon His Word. When His visible presence was withdrawn, Jesus designed that His Word must be the source of the Christian’s power today. Like their Master, Christians are to live by every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.
You seem to indicate that “the Word of God” is the Bible. And that the Bible is the source of Christian power today. Catholics would say that Christ Himself, through the Holy Spirit, is still “the source of Christian power today.” The Book is part of the Word but the source of power cannot be the book alone, since Christ is “the Word made flesh.”
Stop telling Christians to not do this and to filter all their understandings through your church and your Pope. We are not robots and God has designed His Word so that anyone anywhere can sit down with His Book and understand His Word. 👍
This coming from an SDA? I rest my case.
 
Very good point. The Bible is a collaberation of writings and letters by those who were inspired by God to do so. The Early church put these collaberations together in a very painstakingly critical process that wasn’t decided upon in a simple matter of days. The Scriptures are writings inspired by God himself for us. They are the same forever. The Word of God. They were not written by Catholics or any denomination. They were written by those thought of as early Christians. I don’t care what anyone claims and how ridiculous the claim, the Holy Scriptures didn’t come from Rome.
a) The early Church – to which the Catholic Church traces herself in an unbroken historical, spiritual, doctrinal line. We have the paper trail.

b) “Early Christians” were Catholic Christians as opposed to Gnostics, Arians, Nestorians, Sabellians, Montanists, etc., etc., etc.

c) The early Church (Catholic) was not a “denomination”; it was THE Church. The Catholic Church today is that same Church. Christ’s Church. It is NOT a denomination.

d) Who said the Scriptures came “from” Rome? What subsists in its fullness today only in the Catholic Churches under the Bishop of Rome (remember? 23 "true particular Churches) was at that time THE Catholic Church, ONE, and undivided.

It is not a “ridiculous” claim that the New Testament is a Catholilc Testament. It is a cold historic fact that requires no theological quibbling. Even Protestants know that. Check out RC Sproul’s (Presbyterian) talk on canonicity. What is “ridiculous” is that anybody should claim that the New Testament was NOT a product of the Catholic Church.
 
I think that Orthodox Christians would have something to say about this subject in this regard as well.
Right. The Orthodox Churches would agree that the canon was closed by Councils of the undivided Church. The Orthodox Churches are “catholic” Churches, though they are in schism from the Bishop of Rome.

I think you have a definition of the word “Catholic” that even the Roman Catholic Church may not share.
 
I’m not interested in your word games. I am speaking of the Orthodox church who would have strong opposition to Roman Catholics referring to only themselves as being the earliest of Christians. You know what I am talking about.
What word games are you referring to? :confused: He answered your question perfectly! The C.C. is the apostolic church because that church can trace its origin all the way back to the apostles, and that church *(which BTW codified the 46 books of the old and 27 books of the new testament) *is the same C.C. WE SEE TODAY!!! The C.C. is orthodox because that church adheres to the Christian faith as expressed in the earliest of catholic ecumenical creeds defined at each respective council (delineate below), and continued to do so through every century, again, all of it defined by the fallible C.C. with the Divine guidance of the infallible Holy Spirit.

“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Matthew 28:19-20

Jesus spoke these words to the apostolic church and no other, and promised that church He would be with them for “forever.” The C.C. is the only church that fits the bill. If you deny this then you call Jesus a liar and He in fact left His established church as orphans, and you render your bible as nothing more than the inept writings of mere men!

The Eastern Orthodox Church broke away from the C.C. at the turn of the 1st century and adopted this name; Nominally speaking it is the eastern orthodox orthodox church.

C.C. Councils right up until the worse heresy the church ever confronted.

Pentecost (30/33AD)

The beginning of the Church; the Church exists before a determination of a canon or a definitive list of books of what was later called the Bible. The NT was not even written yet. The Bible is the book of the Church, we are not a church of the Bible.
Melito, Bishop of Sardis (c. 170)
Produced the first known Christian attempt at an Old Testament canon. His list maintains the Septuagint order of books but contains only the Old Testament protocanonicals minus the Book of Esther.
Council of Laodicea (c. 360)
A local council of the church in union with Rome produced a list of books of the Bible similar to the Council of Trent’s canon. This was one of the Church’s earliest decisions on a canon.
Council of Rome (382)
Local church council under the authority of Pope Damasus, (366-384) gave a complete list of canonical books of the OT and NT which is identical with the list later approved by the Council of Trent.
Council of Hippo (393)
Local North African Church council in union with and under the authority of the Bishop of Rome approved a list of OT and NT canon (same as later approved by the Council of Trent)
Council of Carthage (397)
Local North African Church council in union with and under the authority of the Bishop of Rome approved a list of OT and NT canon (same as later approved by the Council of Trent)
Pope Innocent I, Bishop of Rome, 401-417 (405)
Responded to a request by Exuperius, Bishop of Toulouse, with a list of canonical books of Scripture; this list was the same as later approved by the Council of Trent.
Council of Carthage (419)
Local North African Church council in union with and under the authority of the Bishop of Rome approved a list of OT and NT canon (same as later approved by the Council of Trent)
Council of Florence, an ecumenical council (1441)
Complete list of OT and NT canon was drawn up; this list later adopted by the Fathers of the Council of Trent
Council of Trent, an ecumenical council called to respond to the heresy of the Reformers.
(1545-1563)
 
In the Catholic Church, this has long since happened. Is happening today. Will happen until the end of time. The days of “protest” are over. The Church is not a denomination. Denominations are all those who reject the Church but attempt to appropriate the Word of God without the Body of Christ.

I rest my case.
Actually; the Catholic Church is the one church that departed from the original Church, and it is just another denomination, like the many protestants who have also departed from the original (not “early” church), for there are several early churches. The original Church is all that counts. All of the professing early churches have written their own Bible, you guys are calling your’s a "catholic Bible; but the Bible is not denominational; it’s not Roman Catholic; it is Christian; it is authored by God Himself.

The preconditioned methods of Bible perception brought about by so called “Tradition” and “Magisterium” is in effect, a Bible destroying falsehood. The “Tradition” and the “Magisterium” proffered by Rome, challenges the Bible’s authority; and supersedes it’s holy commandments.
 
Actually; the Catholic Church is the one church that departed from the original Church, and it is just another denomination, like the many protestants who have also departed from the original (not “early” church), for there are several early churches. They have written their own Bible, calling it a "catholic Bible; but the Bible is not denominational; it’s not Roman Catholic; it is Christian; it is authored by God Himself.

The preconditioned methods of Bible perception brought about by so called “Tradition” and “Magisterium” is in effect, a Bible destroying falsehood. The “Tradition” and the “Magisterium” proffered by Rome, challenges the Bible’s authority; and supersedes it’s holy commandments.
Even if one could believe what you say has some historic merit, the idea that you think people believe in the catholicity of the Scriptures is a result of “preconditioned methods of Bible perception” is simply absurd. I, for one, was a “Bible Christian” who was drawn toward ‘catholicity’ by the study of early mediaeval history in a secular university. It was by reading primary sources that I realized that “my” Bible was a catholic book, and that although I shall never give up the belief that it was written by the Holy Spirit, there was no way that I could get around the fact that the Holy Spirit worked in and through the Catholic Church to give it to me.
 
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