The bible is corrupt!

[BeeSweet]

JEREMIAH 8:8

'How can you say, “We are wise,
for we have the law of the LORD,”
when actually the lying pen of the scribes
has handled it falsely?

This verse is not referring to the written word of God, it refers to the interpretation of the lawgivers of the time. “Handled it falsely” refers to the political interpretation, i.e. how they handled the law in practice.

Jeremiah 26: 4-6 You shall say to them, `Thus says the LORD: If you will not listen to me, to walk in my law which I have set before you, and to heed the words of my servants the prophets whom I send to you urgently, though you have not heeded, then I will make this house like Shiloh, and I will make this city a curse for all the nations of the earth.’"

If the Word of God had truly been corrupted, the Lord God would not then say “walk in my law which I have set before you…” because the law would no longer be set before them, due to the corruption of the scribes.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Where is the proof from our Muslim friends that it is corrupt?
Do we have many different / altered ancient manuscripts that contradict?
Do we have dependable ancient manuscripts?

Why do our Muslim friend alway push this in a debate?

What about the quran? Is it altered? Can you prove it was not altered?

Muslim apologists say this because they are trying to trash the Holy Bible in order to erect their own “holy book” on its ruins.​

Rather unwisely, they also claim that their “prophet” is foretold in it - which is a bit difficult, if it’s corrupt; for if it’s corrupt, maybe those references to him are corruptions.

In any case, there no such references - they seem to exist only if one tortures & terrorises the texts into giving the desired information.

There are many thousands of manuscripts of

• the Greek NT - c. 5000
• the Vulgate Bible - c. 8000
  as well of as the other ancient versions & translations & other texts. These links should help:
• members.aol.com/rbiblech/MiscDoctrine/TextualCriticismOfTheBible.htm
• bible-researcher.com/title.html
• bible-researcher.com/guide.html
• www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/bibel.html
• ntgateway.com/resource/textcrit.htm
• en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textual_criticism
  The texts of the various Biblicalbooks are sufficiently well established for general religious purposes: so, OTOH the “originals” are not recoverable, but OTO, that does not mean that the texts of the books are so hopelessly corrupt that we cannot use them. In any case, the reliability of the graphic signs of which texts are composed is only one means of showing what texts mean. Graphic signs are useless if one does not know how to relate them - which is why this is ambiguous:
• GODISNOWHERE
  Neither “God is nowhere” nor “God is now here” is the only correct reading - unless there is a context to help the reader, either is a perfectly valid understanding of the semantic value of the graphic signs. Graphic signs by themselves, whether letters or some other sort of script, are not “correct” or “incorrect” - their semantic values are “correct” or “incorrect”.

Hope that helps

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

JEREMIAH 8:8

'How can you say, “We are wise,
for we have the law of the LORD,”
when **actually the lying pen of the scribes **
has handled it falsely?

You do realise that quoting that verse to show the Bible is corrupted, is completely illogical ?​

 

[Sister_Amy]

I don’t usually say that “The Bible is corrupt” because my belief is far more complicated than that. It’s just for you to look at if you think that the Bible is exactly perfect.

 

[ZuzuBailey]

I still dont see any reason for a vast amount of muslims who say the bible is corrupt. I think maybe I will go to a muslim board

 

[tomshaikh]

Hello Everyone,

I do not think so that it says in Quran that Bible is corrupt. If it is than someone show prove to these Non-Muslims. I heard it from people but i think i have to look at Quran and find that verse.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Hello Everyone,

I do not think so that it says in Quran that Bible is corrupt. If it is than someone show prove to these Non-Muslims. I heard it from people but i think i have to look at Quran and find that verse.

Well what you think doesn’t really tell people what the Qur’an actually says.

There is not just one verse but MANY which talk about the distortion and change, and even forgetting of the messages which were sent to Jews and Christians. Didn’t I quote them pages back in this very thread? Hmm…

Here is one, which I just read last night:

2:59 But the transgressors changed the word from that which had been given them;

 

[tomshaikh]

Well what you think doesn’t really tell people what the Qur’an actually says.

There is not just one verse but MANY which talk about the distortion and change, and even forgetting of the messages which were sent to Jews and Christians. Didn’t I quote them pages back in this very thread? Hmm…

Here is one, which I just read last night:

2:59 But the transgressors changed the word from that which had been given them;

i need to see 2:58 and 2:60 to confirm that 2:59 verse is related to bible corruption. How do you know this verse is related to bible corruption. Are you ALIM of Quran or just like me who get idea from it.Thats why i say in my signature as below:

 

[BlaineTog]

So you must prove the Qur’an to be inaccurate. Good luck with that one.

But this is unfair. If your authority is allowed to analyze our authority, our authority should be allowed to analyze yours back. This is why your answer to the question of why Muslims believe the Bible to be inaccurate is unhelpful even if it’s true: because the question really wants to know what reasons Muslims can give for anyone else to think the Bible is inaccurate.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Blaine I suggested a book, and I won’t give the details of it.

The real reason Muslims believe it is just the Qur’an. Asking for more than that really shows a lack of understanding of Islam and Muslim beliefs. I don’t myself criticize the Qur’an just because you said, I’m not an authority. I don’t accept Christian interpretations of the Bible either. There isn’t really a double standard here.

 

[Sister_Amy]

The reason Muslims beileve that the Bible is not purely the word of God, entirely revealed or inspired or preserved, but a hodgepodge of previous revelation mixed with other things… the reason Muslims believe that is:

3:77 As for those who sell the faith they owe to Allah and their own plighted word for a small price, they shall have no portion in the Hereafter: Nor will Allah (Deign to) speak to them or look at them on the Day of Judgment, nor will He cleans them (of sin): They shall have a grievous penalty.

3:78 There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, “That is from Allah,” but it is not from Allah: It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it!

5:13 But because of their [Children of Israel’s] breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind.

5:14 From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.

2:91 When it is said to them, "Believe in what Allah Hath sent down, "they say, “We believe in what was sent down to us:” yet they reject all besides, even if it be Truth confirming what is with them. Say: “Why then have ye slain the prophets of Allah in times gone by, if ye did indeed believe?”

4:46 Of the Jews** there are those who displace words from their (right) places**, and say: “We hear and we disobey”; and “Hear what is not Heard”; and “Ra’ina”; with a twist of their tongues and a slander to Faith. If only they had said: “What hear and we obey”; and “Do hear”; and “Do look at us”; it would have been better for them, and more proper; but Allah hath cursed them for their Unbelief; and but few of them will believe.

5:41 O Messenger! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say “We believe” with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee.** They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, “If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!” **If any one’s trial is intended by Allah, thou hast no authority in the least for him against Allah. For such - it is not Allah’s will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment.

2:174 Those who conceal Allah’s revelations in the Book, and purchase for them a miserable profit,- they swallow into themselves naught but Fire; Allah will not address them on the Day of Resurrection. Nor purify them: Grievous will be their penalty.

2:79 Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:“This is from Allah,” to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.

In other words, the Muslims believe it because the Qur’an says it.

 

[BlaineTog]

Blaine I suggested a book, and I won’t give the details of it.

The real reason Muslims believe it is just the Qur’an. Asking for more than that really shows a lack of understanding of Islam and Muslim beliefs. I don’t myself criticize the Qur’an just because you said, I’m not an authority. I don’t accept Christian interpretations of the Bible either. There isn’t really a double standard here.

No no, I’m not telling you that you need more than the Quran to believe the Bible is corrupted, just as I don’t need more than the Bible to believe the Quran is in error. What I’m saying is the intended question behind “Why do you think the Bible is corrupted?” is “What reasons do you have for disbelieving in the Bible that might be persuasive to non-Muslims?” If you have none, that’s fine, just don’t except to convince any Christian with “The Quran says so.”

 

[tomshaikh]

Sister_Amy:
Please post verses like this

Quran 2:62
Al-Baqara

Translation By Dr.Mohsin
Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, ] whoever believes in Allâh and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve ] (62)

Translation By Yusuf Ali
Those who believe (in the Qur’an) and those who follow the Jewish (Scriptures) and the Christians and the Sabians, any who believe in Allah and the Last Day and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (62)

 

[tomshaikh]

No no, I’m not telling you that you need more than the Quran to believe the Bible is corrupted, just as I don’t need more than the Bible to believe the Quran is in error. What I’m saying is the intended question behind “Why do you think the Bible is corrupted?” is “What reasons do you have for disbelieving in the Bible that might be persuasive to non-Muslims?” If you have none, that’s fine, just don’t except to convince any Christian with “The Quran says so.”

HI, If Quran say so than its true.

 

[Angelos]

3:77 As for those who sell the faith they owe to Allah and their own plighted word for a small price, they shall have no portion in the Hereafter: Nor will Allah (Deign to) speak to them or look at them on the Day of Judgment, nor will He cleans them (of sin): They shall have a grievous penalty.

Dear Amy, sorry to say, this does not look like the correct translation to me. Please refer to your sources when you quote from a Koran translation next time. The translation I have below is from al-sunnah.com/call_to_islam/quran/pickthall/surah3.html :

3 77. Lo! those who purchase a small gain at the cost of Allah’s covenant and their oaths, they have no portion in the Hereafter. Allah will neither speak to them nor look upon them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He make them grow. Theirs will be a painful doom.

This verse has nothing to do with the Islamic theories of Biblical distortion! Actually, the words “oaths” and “covenant” do not necessarily pertain to the Bible. What this verse emphasizes is the asserted tendency of the People of the Book to break their promises.

3:78 There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, “That is from Allah,” but it is not from Allah: It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it!

This verse apparently criticizes some Jews (a section refers to a group of people, not to the whole race of Jewish believers) for distorting the Torah while reading it! Everyone could distort any text through deliberate misreading, but this is by no means identical to the Biblical corruption claimed by Muslims.

5:13 But because of their [Children of Israel’s] breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind.

5:14 From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.

Here I once more have got an alternative translation which is quite different from yours:

5 13. And because of their breaking their covenant, We have cursed them and made hard their hearts. They change words from their context and forget a part of that whereof they were admonished. Thou wilt not cease to discover treachery from all save a few of them. But bear with them and pardon them. Lo! Allah loveth the kindly. 14. And with those who say: “Lo! we are Christians,” We made a covenant, but they forgot a part of that whereof they were admonished. Therefore We have stirred up enmity and hatred among them till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will inform them of their handiwork.

More, “changing words from their context” does not necessarily denote textual perversion since the verses above does not define those words in question as *the words of the Book *or *the words of Allah. *

to be continued…

 

[tomshaikh]

Please reffer to this site for translation. It is authentic site
www.quranexplorer.com. Here you will find translation in different language. Jazakhullah Khair.

 

[Angelos]

Even if we endorse your translation and suppose that Chapter 5:13-14 blames the People of the Book for forgetting the message that was sent them, I wonder how you reach the conclusion that this proves Jews and Christians replaced the true message with the fake/false one! The verb “forget” denotes “deliberate ignorance” or “turning one’s back on sth” in the quoted sentences, not to “destroy” the message so as to replace it with the new one.

2:91 When it is said to them, "Believe in what Allah Hath sent down, "they say, “We believe in what was sent down to us:” yet they reject all besides, even if it be Truth confirming what is with them. Say: “Why then have ye slain the prophets of Allah in times gone by, if ye did indeed believe?”

I failed to understand why you quoted this verse at all! This verse only criticizes Jews for their deisbelief and recurrent murder of the messengers.

4:46 Of the Jews there are those who displace words from their (right) places, and say: “We hear and we disobey”; and “Hear what is not Heard”; and “Ra’ina”; with a twist of their tongues and a slander to Faith. If only they had said: “What hear and we obey”; and “Do hear”; and “Do look at us”; it would have been better for them, and more proper; but Allah hath cursed them for their Unbelief; and but few of them will believe.

The words displaced from their right places are given in the verse above. It is clear that it is again some Jews who make those alterations, and the most important thing is that the Koran says those modifications are only verbal - as the phrase “twist of their tongues” makes it clear.

5:41 O Messenger! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say “We believe” with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, “If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!” If any one’s trial is intended by Allah, thou hast no authority in the least for him against Allah. For such - it is not Allah’s will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment.

It is not difficult to understand that the verse in question is related to an incident in Mohammad’s time since the phrase “change words from their places” has *present tense *marker. Besides, the words changed are not likely to be the words in the Torah since such an act saddens Mohammad as he believes to have been slandered by some Jews. (Telling lies about Mohammad and making others believe them through the perversion of some words is not associated with the supposed Biblical corruption)

2:174 Those who conceal Allah’s revelations in the Book, and purchase for them a miserable profit,- they swallow into themselves naught but Fire; Allah will not address them on the Day of Resurrection. Nor purify them: Grievous will be their penalty.

Concealing is completely different from distorting! If Mohammad’s scribes had believed in Biblical distortion, they would never have used the word “conceal” since Jews and Christians would have nothing to conceal if they had distorted their Scripture. Therefore, your reference to this verse makes no sense. There is a similar verse in the Koran which again brings up the same accusation only to repeat the idea that Jews had the true Torah with them at Mohammad’s time:

6 91. And they measure not the power of Allah its true measure when they say: Allah hath naught revealed unto a human being. Say (unto the Jews who speak thus): Who revealed the Book which Moses brought, a light and guidance for mankind, which ye have put on parchments which ye show, but ye hide much (thereof), and (by which) ye were taught that which ye knew not yourselves nor (did) your fathers (know it) ? Say: Allah. Then leave them to their play of cavilling.

to be continued…

 

[BlaineTog]

HI, If Quran say so than its true.

Ok. But Christians don’t agree with that. So if you want to convince us, you have to use something else, something common to both of us.

 

[Angelos]

2:79 Then woe to those who** write **the Book with their own hands, and then say:“This is from Allah,” to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.

We need to go a few verses backwards in the Koran in order to get a better view of the context and find out who are cursed for writing the Book with their hands. Rather interestingly, you forgot to quote a very important Koran verse that explicitly uses the words “distortion” and “Torah” in the same sentence:

2 75. Have ye any hope that they will be true to you when a party of them used to listen to the word of Allah, then used to change it, after they had understood it, knowingly ?

Not even this verse with such harsh statements suffices to support the conventional Islamic claims for Biblical corruption! This is because the writers of the Koran always avoid generalizations through the use of the phrase “a party of them” while referring to Jews and exemplifying their disbelief and unsurprising denial of the Koran. Further, the distortion in that sentence means the deliberate misinterpretation of the Torah by some Jews since the act of listening is involved in the process of perversion.

Let’s look at the following verses:
76. And when they fall in with those who believe, they say: We believe. But when they go apart one with another they say: Prate ye to them of that which Allah hath disclosed to you that they may contend with you before your Lord concerning it ? Have ye then no sense ?** 77**. Are they then unaware that Allah knoweth that which they keep hidden and that which they proclaim ?

These are definitely the same group of people mentioned in verse 75.

78. Among them are unlettered folk who know the Scripture not except from hearsay. They but guess. 79. Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, “This is from Allah,” that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby.

These two verses are related as one might easily guess: some Jews write the Book with their hands and attribute them to Allah since some other Jews do not have access to the Book as a result of their illiteracy. Nevertheless, it is impossible and unreasonable to make use of this verse in support for the supposed corruption of the OT as the verse by no means says the Jews writing fake copies of the Book managed to replace it with the true Torah. According to the Koran, only *illiterate Jews *were affected by this forgery because they failed to distinguish the fake copies from the genuine ones that they could not read and understand.

Peace,

Angelos N. B.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Ok. But Christians don’t agree with that. So if you want to convince us, you have to use something else, something common to both of us.

Hi Blaine again.

There is no attempt on behalf of the Muslims to convince anyone that the Bible is corrupt. The question was, or at least I was under the impression that the questionw as why do Muslims believe it. And the answer is the Qur’an.

Muslims aren’t trying to convince Christians of anything, just because the Qur’an says so–the Qur’an is the proof FOR THE MUSLIMS.

Muslims believe in angels because the Qur’an so. Muslims believe in the Day of Judgment because the Qur’an says so. Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet and Salih was a prophet and they believe in stories about Abraham because the Qur’an says so. And for the Muslim, that is enough proof.