the Bible just dropped out of Heaven

[idiopathogen]

Would it make a difference to you guys if the Bible just dropped out of heaven, and men were not used to write and compile it?

“Though he had commanded the clouds from above, and opened the doors of heaven, And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the corn of heaven. Man did eat angels’ food: he sent them meat to the full…For all this they sinned still, and believed not for his wondrous works.” Psa 78:23,24,32.

Are we, Christendom, better than Israel?

As the apostles and prophets laid down the Truth, the Spirit sealed their testimony with miracles, much as Jesus sealed His own testimony. This was proof that Jesus had risen. The things the apostles and prophets were saying were true! These miracles reduced very quickly by the middle of Acts, and in the end, Paul was helpless and chained in a hired house (no earthquake, and no escape as earlier with Peter). John was banished to an island, and no floating carpet saved him so he could raise more people from the dead, heal, etc. They wrote their epistles. The revelation of the truth ceased.

Now, we are to walk in it and “hold fast” until the Lord came. Still waiting…He could come back tonight!

“The just shall live by faith.”

“faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”

 

[thistle]

Would it make a difference to you guys if the Bible just dropped out of heaven, and men were not used to write and compile it?

“Though he had commanded the clouds from above, and opened the doors of heaven, And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the corn of heaven. Man did eat angels’ food: he sent them meat to the full…For all this they sinned still, and believed not for his wondrous works.” Psa 78:23,24,32.

Are we, Christendom, better than Israel?

As the apostles and prophets laid down the Truth, the Spirit sealed their testimony with miracles, much as Jesus sealed His own testimony. This was proof that Jesus had risen. The things the apostles and prophets were saying were true! These miracles reduced very quickly by the middle of Acts, and in the end, Paul was helpless and chained in a hired house (no earthquake, and no escape as earlier with Peter). John was banished to an island, and no floating carpet saved him so he could raise more people from the dead, heal, etc. They wrote their epistles. The revelation of the truth ceased.

Now, we are to walk in it and “hold fast” until the Lord came. Still waiting…He could come back tonight!

“The just shall live by faith.”

“faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”

It didn’t so the whole premise of the thread is meaningless.

The Catholic Church predated the Bible and it was the Catholic Church that compiled the Bible guided by the Holy Spirit.
You would not have the Bible to read if not for the Catholic Church.

 

[wow]

You need the Church with the Bible.

2Pe 1:20 Understanding this first: That no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.

 

[AngelRose81]

It didn’t so the whole premise of the thread is meaningless.

The Catholic Church predated the Bible and it was the Catholic Church that compiled the Bible guided by the Holy Spirit.
You would not have the Bible to read if not for the Catholic Church.

But you have to remember that some Protestant sects DO believe that the Bible just dropped out of heaven in the Authorized 1611 KJV. (This statement is not meant to offend but this has been my experience here in the Bible Belt, but let me also say that I know that not all Protestants believe this!)

Anyway, No it would not make a difference to me. I agree that we need the Bible as well as the Church to tell us what the Bible means.

And to answer the question if Christians are better than Israelites…No, we aren’t. You have to remember that there are some Jews that converted one way or another…lets see, the Apostles, Paul, and lots of others during bibilcal times…plus many others through out the years. The only difference in SOME Jews and Christians is that some Jewish people do not accept that Jesus is the Messiah. Just my opinion.

 

[idiopathogen]

It didn’t so the whole premise of the thread is meaningless.

Exactly my point. Is it from God, or not? Is it to be believed at the exclusion of that which disagrees with it or not? Are the gifts in Ephesians 4 adequate to help us understand it, much like the teachers that rose up during Israel’s revival in Nehemia 9?

It is very clear, and increasingly more clear to faith. The righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith, and faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. To the law and the testimony, if they speak not according to this Word, there is no light in them. The testimony must speak in accordance with the Word. The New Testament, when referring to the Old Testament, in no way relies on tradition for understanding it, but completely on the revelation itself. Is the New Testament somehow less clear? The law came by Moses, but Grace and Truth by Jesus Christ.

 

[Todd_Easton]

The Church Fathers noted a decrease in the frequency of miracles after Christianity had been firmly established in the world but your contention that miracles ceased altogether once the books of the New Testament were written is not correct. Miracles have occurred throughout the Church’s 2000-year history, just as Jesus Christ promised they would in Mark 16:17-18. The lives of the saints are full of miracles.

Miracle still happen. The Catholic Church’s current Code of Canon Law requires at least one (for a martyr) or two (for a non-martyr) post-mortem miracles attributed to them before a person can be officially recognized (canonized) as a saint. The late Pope John Paul II, for instance, canonized several hundred new saints during his pontificate and the current pope, Pope Benedict XVI, so far during his short pontifice has also already canonized several new saints.

 

[teachccd]

The New Testament, when referring to the Old Testament, in no way relies on tradition for understanding it, but completely on the revelation itself.

Huh?? The Old Testament foreshadows the New testament and the New Testament fulfills the Old. Read Luke Chapter 1 verses 1-4 to understand how the Word of God was spread orally before it was written down. So your theory of the Bible falling from the sky is ridiculous because it already existed through the words of the Apostles long before it was written down…Am I in the twilight zone??

 

[po18guy]

Would it make a difference to you guys if the Bible just dropped out of heaven, and men were not used to write and compile it?

“Though he had commanded the clouds from above, and opened the doors of heaven, And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the corn of heaven. Man did eat angels’ food: he sent them meat to the full…For all this they sinned still, and believed not for his wondrous works.” Psa 78:23,24,32.

Are we, Christendom, better than Israel?

As the apostles and prophets laid down the Truth, the Spirit sealed their testimony with miracles, much as Jesus sealed His own testimony. This was proof that Jesus had risen. The things the apostles and prophets were saying were true! These miracles reduced very quickly by the middle of Acts, and in the end, Paul was helpless and chained in a hired house (no earthquake, and no escape as earlier with Peter). John was banished to an island, and no floating carpet saved him so he could raise more people from the dead, heal, etc. They wrote their epistles. The revelation of the truth ceased.

Now, we are to walk in it and “hold fast” until the Lord came. Still waiting…He could come back tonight!

“The just shall live by faith.”

“faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”

The Word of God is Jesus Christ. He is not dead, rather He is living flesh and blood. The bible quotes some of the thngs he said and did, but the bible, as mentioned before, is not complete and was not used without the oral teaching Tradition established by Christ. Not until the rebellion, after which, Christian beliefs and practices have been thoroughly deconstructed by those who have only 50% of true Christian practice. It remains sad, but true.

Christ’s peace.

 

[idiopathogen]

Huh?? The Old Testament foreshadows the New testament and the New Testament fulfills the Old. Read Luke Chapter 1 verses 1-4 to understand how the Word of God was spread orally before it was written down. So your theory of the Bible falling from the sky is ridiculous because it already existed through the words of the Apostles long before it was written down…Am I in the twilight zone??

You might be in the twilight zone.

Let me reword things. The New Testament freely quotes the Old Testament, and does not refer in any way to at that time current religious tradition or authorities to correctly interpret Old Testament passages. The Spirit, when given His liberty, does the same thing today. He chooses the base things to confound the wise, because when the world by wisdom knew not God, He chooses the foolishness of preaching to save those that believe. This gives glory to God and not man. The Catholic church is concerned primarily with the salvation man, and the means employed, even if it dishonors God, are justified by the end.

 

[Todd_Easton]

This gives glory to God and not man. The Catholic church is concerned primarily with the salvation man, and the means employed, even if it dishonors God, are justified by the end.

What give glory to God is doing His will as revealed by Jesus Christ and His Apostles and preserved whole and entire in the teachings of the Catholic Church. St. Paul told Christians to hold to the traditions he taught them, whether by word of mouth or by letter. (2 Thessalonians 2:15) The Catholic Church teaches all those traditions of St. Paul and the other apostles, those received by word of mouth (Sacred Oral Traditions) and those received by letter (Sacred Written Traditions, the Sacred Scriptures). These two forms of communication in which the Christian faith was delivered once and for all by the apostles are complementary not contradictory. If Sacred Oral Traditions seem to you to contradict the Sacred Scriptures, then your understanding of one or both is not correct since both traditions have the Holy Spirit as their source.

The Catholic Church teaches that the ends do not justify the means and that sinful means may never be employed to achieve some good.

 

[Ignatius]

“faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”

God revealed the Word of the New Testament through the Catholic Church. The Holy Scripture of the New Testament was declared by and as a result of the Decree of Pope St. Damasus 1 at the Council of Rome in 382 A.D.

The Decree of Pope St. Damasus I, Council of Rome. 382 A.D…

ST. DAMASUS 1, POPE, THE DECREE OF DAMASUS:
***It is likewise decreed: Now, indeed, we must treat of the divine Scriptures: what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she must shun. ***
***The list of the Scriptures of the New and Eternal Testament, which the holy and Catholic Church receives: of the Gospels, one book according to Matthew, one book according to Mark, one book according to Luke, one book according to John. The Epistles of the Apostle Paul, fourteen in number: one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Ephesians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Galatians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to Timothy, one to Titus one to Philemon, one to the Hebrews. Likewise, one book of the Apocalypse of John. And the Acts of the Apostles, one book. Likewise, the canonical Epistles, seven in number: of the Apostle Peter, two Epistles; of the Apostle James, one Epistle; of the Apostle John, one Epistle; of the other John, a Presbyter, two Epistles; of the Apostle Jude the Zealot, one Epistle. Thus concludes the canon of the New Testament. ***
Likewise it is decreed: After the announcement of all of these prophetic and evangelic or as well as apostolic writings which we have listed above as Scriptures, on which, by the grace of God, the Catholic Church is founded, we have considered that it ought to be announced that although all the Catholic Churches spread abroad through the world comprise but one bridal chamber of Christ, nevertheless, the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other Churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: "You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you shall have bound on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall have loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

The Council of Hippo in 393 reaffirmed the canon put forth by Pope Damasus I…

AD 393: Council of Hippo. “It has been decided that besides the canonical Scriptures nothing be read in church under the name of divine Scripture.” (canon 36 A.D. 393).

The Third Council of Carthage reaffirmed anew, the Canon put forth by Pope Damasus I…

AD 397: Council of Carthage III. "It has been decided that nothing except the canonical Scriptures should be read in the Church under the name of the divine Scriptures. But the canonical " (canon 47 A.D. 397).

If you would like to learn more about the teachings of Jesus Christ, please contact the folks at chnetwork.org/. I promise, if you unite yourself to Jesus Christ through His Church, you will experience the great gift the He has promised to those who follow Him. As Jesus said, “He who eats My body and drinks My blood lives in Me and I in him and I will raise him up on the last day.” And He is faithful and sure to keep His promises. Repent, turn to the Gospel and be saved and you will have everlasting life.

Grace and peace be with you.

Your servant in Christ.

 

[teachccd]

You might be in the twilight zone.

Let me reword things. The New Testament freely quotes the Old Testament, and does not refer in any way to at that time current religious tradition or authorities to correctly interpret Old Testament passages. The Spirit, when given His liberty, does the same thing today. He chooses the base things to confound the wise, because when the world by wisdom knew not God, He chooses the foolishness of preaching to save those that believe. This gives glory to God and not man. The Catholic church is concerned primarily with the salvation man, and the means employed, even if it dishonors God, are justified by the end.

I might be in the twilight zone but I’d rather stay there than be where you are.

You are in denial of an authoritative Church founded by Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit and very alive today to interpret the Word of God as it was given to His Church almost 2000 years ago.

*“The Catholic church is concerned primarily with the salvation of man, and the means employed, even if it dishonors God, are justified by the end.” *The only way that I see God terribly dishonored is when you have Pastor Billy Bob at the corner church that **he founded **telling everyone his interpretation of Scripture. We have 33000 Pastor Billy Bobs all disagreeing with each other and all claiming personal interpretation through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. What the heck?? And you have the audacity to claim the true interpretation of Scripture??? By what authority do you hold this claim?? By the Holy Spirit?? Then we must have one confused Holy Spirit. He tells the Presbyterians that infant baptism is valid and the Baptist that it is not and everyone else whatever…Oh geesh…

Back to the twilight zone…And more importantly, back to the true Church founded by Christ and continues in the unity given by the Apostles and exhorted by Christ in John chapter 17.

 

[idiopathogen]

I might be in the twilight zone but I’d rather stay there than be where you are.

You are in denial of an authoritative Church founded by Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit and very alive today to interpret the Word of God as it was given to His Church almost 2000 years ago.

*“The Catholic church is concerned primarily with the salvation of man, and the means employed, even if it dishonors God, are justified by the end.” *The only way that I see God terribly dishonored is when you have Pastor Billy Bob at the corner church that **he founded **telling everyone his interpretation of Scripture. We have 33000 Pastor Billy Bobs all disagreeing with each other and all claiming personal interpretation through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. What the heck?? And you have the audacity to claim the true interpretation of Scripture??? By what authority do you hold this claim?? By the Holy Spirit?? Then we must have one confused Holy Spirit. He tells the Presbyterians that infant baptism is valid and the Baptist that it is not and everyone else whatever…Oh geesh…

Back to the twilight zone…And more importantly, back to the true Church founded by Christ and continues in the unity given by the Apostles and exhorted by Christ in John chapter 17.

“God is not the author of confusion.” We’re not talking about pastor Billy Bob. The only reason pastor Billy Bob is up front claiming to interpret scripture, taking the place of the Spirit, is he is still stuck with the clergy system he borrowed from Catholicism. If Billy Bob would take a seat, and in humility let the Spirit direct him and those that have some knowledge of scripture speak only on what they know for sure, “if any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God,” you’d be surprised what would happen. “Let the prophets speak 2 or 3, and let the others judge.” Billy Bob needs to be subject to his brethren.

stempublishing.com/authors/darby/ECCLESIA/01003E.html

 

[teachccd]

“God is not the author of confusion.” We’re not talking about pastor Billy Bob. The only reason pastor Billy Bob is up front claiming to interpret scripture, taking the place of the Spirit, is he is still stuck with the clergy system he borrowed from Catholicism. If Billy Bob would take a seat, and in humility let the Spirit direct him and those that have some knowledge of scripture speak only on what they know for sure, “if any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God,” you’d be surprised what would happen. “Let the prophets speak 2 or 3, and let the others judge.” Billy Bob needs to be subject to his brethren.

stempublishing.com/authors/darby/ECCLESIA/01003E.html

Have you read Acts Chapter 8 verses 26-40??

How does one know who is the “oracle of God”? Are you indicating that we should all personally interpret Scripture? If not, who do I go to?? Who are those who you describe as “those that have some knowledge of scripture”?

You are absolutely correct in saying that God is not the author of confusion. Martin Luther was when he decided that personal interpretation of scripture was to be the foundation of Christianity. Then Calvin disagreed with Luther and Zwingli disagreed and thus the birth of mass confusion. Some call it Protestantism…teachccd

 

[BDewey]

Darby? You’re using Darby as a reference? Please!!!

Plymouth Brethren have nothing to do with Rome. How can I take seriously anybody who relies upon the KJV as the literal Word of God? The KJV is most corrupt based upon the work of Erasmus. Quote me the Greek, please! I prefer NA 27th edition or USB 4th edition, thank you very much.

I realize that you’re “challenging the Man” here on this Popish forum, and that’s all fine. However, you are not persuasive in your arguments.

The Bible did NOT indeed fall out of the sky, the bishops of the ante-Nicene Church did indeed have a HUGE role in determining the canon of the NT. And many of those same “Fathers” were solidly “Catholic” in both faith and practice. They advocated Sacraments, the apostolic role of bishops, etc.

The burden is upon you to prove otherwise.

Prove to me that Clement, Polycarp, Irenaeus or Justin Martyr were good Baptists…or even Plymouth Brethren.

 

[po18guy]

Prove to me that Clement, Polycarp, Irenaeus or Justin Martyr were good Baptists…or even Plymouth Brethren.

Fascinating reading here:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plymouth_Brethren
plymouthbrethren.com/
victorianweb.org/religion/plymouth.html

It would appear that their fascination with and absorption by the “end times” places them firmly amongst such similar “adventist” organizations as SDA, JW and LDS, ad nauseum.

Founded by men, but still throwing that bible out there as proof of their inspiration. They are certainly well intentioned, but horribly mislead into error.

 

[idiopathogen]

Darby? You’re using Darby as a reference? Please!!!

Plymouth Brethren have nothing to do with Rome. How can I take seriously anybody who relies upon the KJV as the literal Word of God? The KJV is most corrupt based upon the work of Erasmus. Quote me the Greek, please! I prefer NA 27th edition or USB 4th edition, thank you very much.

Exactly. I use the KJV primarily, but the Bible as the word of God was written in Greek, and this challenge has nothing to do with translation.

I’m simply making the point that regardless of how God speaks and through what/whom, the general result is the same. Israel’s corrupt idolatrous history was bad. The Church’s history is worse.

Prove to me that Clement, Polycarp, Irenaeus or Justin Martyr were good Baptists…or even Plymouth Brethren.

Why? What does that have to do with this challenge? Prove to me that the Spirit of God and the gifts in Ephesians 4 are inadequate to interpret scripture, at which point you have only proven your disobedience and resistance to the Spirit of God.

 

[idiopathogen]

Fascinating reading here:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plymouth_Brethren
plymouthbrethren.com/
victorianweb.org/religion/plymouth.html

It would appear that their fascination with and absorption by the “end times” places them firmly amongst such similar “adventist” organizations as SDA, JW and LDS, ad nauseum.

Except the above groups sprang up shortly after the brethren, and deny the deity of Christ. Satan seemed to recognize the attraction of simplistic non-sacramental movements. If I judge things by the hypocrisy or failure within those that take that faith, why would I even be a Christian with the history of the Christian profession?

“Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.”

 

[idiopathogen]

And to answer the question if Christians are better than Israelites…No, we aren’t. You have to remember that there are some Jews that converted one way or another…lets see, the Apostles, Paul, and lots of others during bibilcal times…plus many others through out the years. The only difference in SOME Jews and Christians is that some Jewish people do not accept that Jesus is the Messiah. Just my opinion.

Kristy. I am not referring to Christians and Israelites. I am comparing Israel to Christendom. That is, the overall witness and faithfulness as a whole, and accountability to God during the time they were expected to do so. Israel for about 1500 years from the calling out of Egypt to condemning their Messiah, and the Church from Acts 2 until now.

Of course there is a remnant. That’s why the Catholic church is still here.

Israel:
Isa 1:9
“Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.”

Christendom
“he that overcometh” “he that overcometh” “he that overcometh”
“He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.” Rev 2 and 3.

 

[teachccd]

Why? What does that have to do with this challenge? Prove to me that the Spirit of God and the gifts in Ephesians 4 are inadequate to interpret scripture, at which point you have only proven your disobedience and resistance to the Spirit of God.

My disobedience would be to ignore the commands of Christ. I would believe that 33,000 different Christian denominations would be enough proof. The gifts of Ephesians 4 have been unwrapped, distorted and re wrapped a few thousand times. In fact verses 11and 12 contradict your previous posts.

I thank God EVERY day that I am Catholic and that I know Jesus in the Eucharist and His Church. The Spirit of God resides in all of those who follow Christ and is discerned through those set apart by Christ to acknowledge and interpret Scripture by the very same Spirit of God. Why is there not one united post reformation Christian Church if Catholicism is wrong and Martin Luther was right?? Why would I see you debating your very point here with your fellow non- Catholic Christians who also claim the single handed authority of Scripture?

The Mormons claim to have inspired written revelation called the Book of Mormon. It also claims to be the inspired Word of God. How do you disprove that?? Because the Spirit of God told you?? A fervent Mormon feels the “burning in the bosom” that without doubt is God telling them that they have the truth. With only your Bible and your gift of interpretation prove to them that they are wrong. I would do anything to see that event…God Bless…teachccd