The Bible: when and where? (plz help)

[lookaround]

I know this is a BIG question, but can someone please list:

what Councils
dates (years)
which were accepted

I am looking for a list where I can clearly see that; at this Council, on this year, these books were accepted; then on this Council, on this year, those books where also accepted.

I am looking for OT and NT.

thank you : )

 

[Mannyfit75]

I know this is a BIG question, but can someone please list:

what Councils
dates (years)
which were accepted

I am looking for a list where I can clearly see that; at this Council, on this year, these books were accepted; then on this Council, on this year, those books where also accepted.

I am looking for OT and NT.

thank you : )

Although the Early Church used the Greek Old Testament, the Septuagint (LXX), the apostles did not otherwise leave a defined set of new scriptures; instead the New Testament developed over time. The development of the New Testament canon was, like that of the Old Testament, a gradual process.

The writings attributed to the apostles circulated amongst the earliest Christian communities. The Pauline epistles were circulating in collected form by the end of the first century AD. Justin Martyr, in the early second century, mentions the “memoirs of the apostles,” which Christians called “gospels” and which were regarded as on par with the Old Testament.[2] A four gospel canon (the Tetramorph) was in place by the time of Irenaeus, c. 160, who refers to it directly.[3] He also quotes and cites 21 books that would end up as part of the New Testament, the excluded ones being Philemon, Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 3 John and Jude.[4] By the early 200’s, Origen of Alexandria may have been using the same 27 books as in the modern New Testament, though there were still disputes over the canonicity of Hebrews, James, II Peter, II and III John, and Revelation[5], see also Antilegomena. Likewise by 200 the Muratorian fragment shows that there existed a set of Christian writings somewhat similar to what is now the New Testament, which included four gospels and argued against objections to them.[6] Thus, while there was a good measure of debate in the Early Church over the New Testament canon, the major writings were accepted by almost all Christians by the middle of the second century.[7]

In his Easter letter of 367, Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, gave a list of exactly the same books as what would become the New Testament canon,[8] and he used the word “canonized” (kanonizomena) in regards to them.[9] The African Synod of Hippo, in 393, approved the New Testament, as it stands today, together with the Septuagint books, a decision that was confirmed by Councils of Carthage in 397 and 419. These councils were under the authority of St. Augustine, who regarded the canon as already closed.[10] Pope Damasus I’s Council of Rome in 382, if the Decretum Gelasianum is correctly associated with it, issued a biblical canon identical to that mentioned above,[11] or if not the list is at least a sixth century compilation.[12] Likewise, Damasus’s commissioning of the Latin Vulgate edition of the Bible, circa 383, was instrumental in the fixation of the canon in the West.[13] In 405, Pope Innocent I sent a list of the sacred books to a Gallic bishop, Exsuperius of Toulouse. When these bishops and councils spoke on the matter, however, they were not defining something new, but instead “were ratifying what had already become the mind of the Church.”[14]

Thus, from the fourth century, there existed unanimity in the West concerning the New Testament canon (as it is today),[15] and by the fifth century the Eastern Church, with a few exceptions, had come to accept the Book of Revelation and thus had come into harmony on the matter of the canon.[16] However, the official finalization of the canon was not made until the Council of Trent of 1546 for Roman Catholicism,[17] the Thirty-Nine Articles of 1563 for the Church of England, the Westminster Confession of Faith of 1647 for Calvinism, and the Synod of Jerusalem of 1672 for the Greek Orthodox.

Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_Christian_Biblical_canon

 

[lookaround]

So it started in 160. Then the NT was completed in 405, correct?
Then we have over a thousand year gap to 1546
What was not in the Bible on 405 that was on 1546?

 

[Mannyfit75]

So it started in 160. Then the NT was completed in 405, correct?

The Gospels were completed around 160 AD but there were other books that were part of that.

The First Synod that had a list of both the OT and NT came in about 393 AD in Hippo lead by St. Augustine, followed by the Council of Carthage in 396 AD and then confirmed again in 416 AD. There was a Council of Rome in 382 AD but the source is questionable.

Another Council in 1430 Council of Florence reaffirm the list of Canon from Hippo and Carthage. The Catholic Church finalized their Canon in the Council of Trent in 1546 as a response to the Protestant Reformation rejection of the Deutrocanonical Books.

 

[Mannyfit75]

It is a rather big gap. The Catholic Church luckily preserve the Bible as we see it today.

 

[lookaround]

The Gospels were completed around 160 AD but there were other books that were part of that.

The First Synod that had a list of both the OT and NT came in about 393 AD in Hippo lead by St. Augustine, followed by the Council of Carthage in 396 AD and then confirmed again in 416 AD. There was a Council of Rome in 382 AD but the source is questionable.

Another Council in 1430 Council of Florence reaffirm the list of Canon from Hippo and Carthage. The Catholic Church finalized their Canon in the Council of Trent in 1546 as a response to the Protestant Reformation rejection of the Deutrocanonical Books.

So the Deutrocanonical Books were the only ones not in the Bible in 416 AD?

 

[Rolltide]

So the Deutrocanonical Books were the only ones not in the Bible in 416 AD?

No, the Deuterocanonical Books WERE included. The Council of Trent reaffirmed that they were part of the Bible and closed the canon because Protestants were challenging it.

 

[Rolltide]

Here is the actual “Damasine List”, issued by Pope Damasus I, at the Council of Rome in 382 AD. Note that some of the books were named differently back then, but that they are the same books we used today.

"It is likewise decreed: Now, indeed, we must treat of the divine Scriptures: what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she must shun. The list of the Old Testament begins: Genesis, one book; Exodus, one book: Leviticus, one book;Numbers, one book; Deuteronomy, one book; Jesus Nave, one book; of Judges, one book; Ruth, one book; of Kings, four books [First and Second Books of Kings, Third and Fourth Books of Kings]; Paralipomenon, two books; One Hundred and Fifty Psalms, one book; of Solomon, three books: Proverbs, one book; Ecclesiastes, one book; Canticle of Canticles, one book; likewise, Wisdom, one book; Ecclesiasticus (Sirach), one book;

Likewise, the list of the Prophets: Isaiah, one book; Jeremias, one book; along with Cinoth, that is, his Lamentations; Ezechiel, one book; Daniel, one book; Osee, one book; Amos, one book; Micheas, one book; Joel, one book; Abdias, one book; Jonas, one book; Nahum, one book; Habacuc, one book; Sophonias, one book; Aggeus, one book; Zacharias, one book; Malachias, one book.

Likewise, the list of histories: Job, one book; Tobias, one book; Esdras, two books; Esther, one book; Judith, one book; of Maccabees, two books.

Likewise, the list of the Scriptures of the New and Eternal Testament, which the holy and Catholic Church receives: of the Gospels, one book according to Matthew, one book according to Mark, one book according to Luke, one book according to John. The Epistles of the Apostle Paul, fourteen in number: one to the Romans, one to the Corinthians [2 Corinthians is not mentioned], one to the Ephesians, two to the Thessalonians [First Epistle to the Thessalonians and Second Epistle to the Thessalonians], one to the Galatians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to Timothy [First Epistle to Timothy and Second Epistle to Timothy], one to Titus, one to Philemon, one to the Hebrews.

Likewise, one book of the Apocalypse of John. And the Acts of the Apostles, one book.

Likewise, the canonical Epistles, seven in number: of the Apostle Peter, two Epistles [First Epistle of Peter and Second Epistle of Peter]; of the Apostle James, one Epistle; of the Apostle John, one Epistle; of the other John, a Presbyter, two Epistles [Second Epistle of John and Third Epistle of John]; of the Apostle Jude the Zealot, one Epistle. Thus concludes the canon of the New Testament.

Likewise it is decreed: After the announcement of all of these prophetic and evangelic or as well as apostolic writings which we have listed above as Scriptures, on which, by the grace of God, the Catholic Church is founded, we have considered that it ought to be announced that although all the Catholic Churches spread abroad through the world comprise but one bridal chamber of Christ, nevertheless, the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other Churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: "You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you shall have bound on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall have loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven.""

 

[Rolltide]

Here is the list of the canon from the Third Council of Carthage in 397 AD:

“It was also determined that besides the Canonical Scriptures nothing be read in the Church under the title of divine Scriptures. The Canonical Scriptures are these: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua the son of Nun, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, 3 two books of Paraleipomena, 4 Job, the Psalter, five books of Solomon, 5 the books of the twelve prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezechiel, Daniel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, two books of Esdras, 6 two books of the Maccabees. Of the New Testament: four books of the Gospels, one book of the Acts of the Apostles, thirteen Epistles of the Apostle Paul, one epistle of the same [writer] to the Hebrews, two Epistles of the Apostle Peter, three of John, one of James, one of Jude, one book of the Apocalypse of John. Let this be made known also to our brother and fellow-priest Boniface, or to other bishops of those parts, for the purpose of confirming that Canon. because we have received from our fathers that those books must be read in the Church. Let it also be allowed that the Passions of Martyrs be read when their festivals are kept.”

 

[lookaround]

No, the Deuterocanonical Books WERE included. The Council of Trent reaffirmed that they were part of the Bible and closed the canon because Protestants were challenging it.

So which book were not?
I don’t think I understand why reaffirm +1,000 years later.
That would be like today if the Pope reaffirmed that Jesus is the Christ. I think we would all be like :duh:

 

[lookaround]

Here is the actual “Damasine List”, issued by Pope Damasus I, at the Council of Rome in 382 AD. Note that some of the books were named differently back then, but that they are the same books we used today.

"It is likewise decreed: Now, indeed, we must treat of the divine Scriptures: what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she must shun. The list of the Old Testament begins: Genesis, one book; Exodus, one book: Leviticus, one book;Numbers, one book; Deuteronomy, one book; Jesus Nave, one book; of Judges, one book; Ruth, one book; of Kings, four books [First and Second Books of Kings, Third and Fourth Books of Kings]; Paralipomenon, two books; One Hundred and Fifty Psalms, one book; of Solomon, three books: Proverbs, one book; Ecclesiastes, one book; Canticle of Canticles, one book; likewise, Wisdom, one book; Ecclesiasticus (Sirach), one book;

Likewise, the list of the Prophets: Isaiah, one book; Jeremias, one book; along with Cinoth, that is, his Lamentations; Ezechiel, one book; Daniel, one book; Osee, one book; Amos, one book; Micheas, one book; Joel, one book; Abdias, one book; Jonas, one book; Nahum, one book; Habacuc, one book; Sophonias, one book; Aggeus, one book; Zacharias, one book; Malachias, one book.

Likewise, the list of histories: Job, one book; Tobias, one book; Esdras, two books; Esther, one book; Judith, one book; of Maccabees, two books.

Likewise, the list of the Scriptures of the New and Eternal Testament, which the holy and Catholic Church receives: of the Gospels, one book according to Matthew, one book according to Mark, one book according to Luke, one book according to John. The Epistles of the Apostle Paul, fourteen in number: one to the Romans, one to the Corinthians [2 Corinthians is not mentioned], one to the Ephesians, two to the Thessalonians [First Epistle to the Thessalonians and Second Epistle to the Thessalonians], one to the Galatians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to Timothy [First Epistle to Timothy and Second Epistle to Timothy], one to Titus, one to Philemon, one to the Hebrews.

Likewise, one book of the Apocalypse of John. And the Acts of the Apostles, one book.

Likewise, the canonical Epistles, seven in number: of the Apostle Peter, two Epistles [First Epistle of Peter and Second Epistle of Peter]; of the Apostle James, one Epistle; of the Apostle John, one Epistle; of the other John, a Presbyter, two Epistles [Second Epistle of John and Third Epistle of John]; of the Apostle Jude the Zealot, one Epistle. Thus concludes the canon of the New Testament.

Likewise it is decreed: After the announcement of all of these prophetic and evangelic or as well as apostolic writings which we have listed above as Scriptures, on which, by the grace of God, the Catholic Church is founded, we have considered that it ought to be announced that although all the Catholic Churches spread abroad through the world comprise but one bridal chamber of Christ, nevertheless, the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other Churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: "You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you shall have bound on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall have loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven.""

I might have missed it, but is Revelations on the list?
edit- is that the Apocalypse of John?

 

[DorianGregorian]

The Septuagint (LXX) was completed by the time of Christ, however different schools of Judaism accepted different books. The Sadducees accepted only the Law (the first 5 books of the Old Testament), the Pharisees accepted as little as the Protestant Old Testament, to accepting the entire Septuigant, so there was a debate about what books were in the Old Testament in the early Christian community. All the books of the New Testament were completed by the year 100 A.D (at the death of St. John), modern criticism tends to place some books later, James as late as 200 A.D, but I think the evidence generally leads us to believe 100 A.D is a good date for when all the books of the Bible were available.

St. Jerome’s Vulgate contained all the Canonical books as decided by the Church Fathers such as St. Athanasius and the Synod of Hippo. While St. Jerome disagreed with some books in the Canon, he decided that the Church fathers knew best.

I wish I could type more but I am in a rush.

Laus Deo

 

[Rolltide]

I might have missed it, but is Revelations on the list?
edit- is that the Apocalypse of John?

Yes… the Apocalypse of John is Revelations

 

[Rolltide]

So which book were not?
I don’t think I understand why reaffirm +1,000 years later.
That would be like today if the Pope reaffirmed that Jesus is the Christ. I think we would all be like :duh:

The canon set at the Councils of Rome, Carthage, and Hippo was exactly the same as the one Catholics use today. However, Protestants didn’t accept these councils, and so the Council of Trent reaffirmed the canon infallibly to leave no doubt whatsoever. The Catholic Church usually doesn’t define a dogma infallibly until it is challenged by someone. For example, the Assumption of Mary has been a constant teaching of the Catholic Church since the very beginning, but it was only infallibly defined in 1950.

The reason Luther and other reformers rejected the Deuterocanonical books was twofold. First, they were included in the Septuagint (the Greek translation), but not the Hebrew translation; they believed this called those books into question, and they did not consider the early councils authoritative. Second, the strongest evidence for many particularly “Catholic” doctrines, like Purgatory and praying to saints, comes from these books, and so they wanted them removed.

 

[lookaround]

The canon set at the Councils of Rome, Carthage, and Hippo was exactly the same as the one Catholics use today. However, Protestants didn’t accept these councils, and so the Council of Trent reaffirmed the canon infallibly to leave no doubt whatsoever. The Catholic Church usually doesn’t define a dogma infallibly until it is challenged by someone. For example, the Assumption of Mary has been a constant teaching of the Catholic Church since the very beginning, but it was only infallibly defined in 1950.

The reason Luther and other reformers rejected the Deuterocanonical books was twofold. First, they were included in the Septuagint (the Greek translation), but not the Hebrew translation; they believed this called those books into question, and they did not consider the early councils authoritative. Second, the strongest evidence for many particularly “Catholic” doctrines, like Purgatory and praying to saints, comes from these books, and so they wanted them removed.

To make sure I know the dates
The Council of Rome: 382
The Council of Carthage: 251 - 424 (respectively)
The Council of Hippo: 393 - 426 (respectively)

1. So if I gave them a list of the books in my bible (Catholic) on 251 it would be the same as theirs?
2. Why do the Orthodox have more books then us if we both use the LXX?
3. For the OT what translation is usually used for books that are in both the Hebrew bible and the LXX?
4. Did Jesus and the Apostles use the Hebrew bible or the LXX? (actual neither existed during there time on earth did they?)

 

[Rolltide]

To make sure I know the dates
The Council of Rome: 382
The Council of Carthage: 251 - 424 (respectively)
The Council of Hippo: 393 - 426 (respectively)

1. So if I gave them a list of the books in my bible (Catholic) on 251 it would be the same as theirs?
2. Why do the Orthodox have more books then us if we both use the LXX?
3. For the OT what translation is usually used for books that are in both the Hebrew bible and the LXX?
4. Did Jesus and the Apostles use the Hebrew bible or the LXX? (actual neither existed during there time on earth did they?)

1. Council of Rome 382 AD
2. Council of Hippo 393 AD (Several meetings were held. The canon comes from the meeting in 393)
3. The Third Council of Carthage 397 AD (The canon comes from the third council)

Who is the “them” you are talking about in question 1? If you mean the people in all three councils, then you are correct.

 

[kage_ar]

Circa 300 BC: Hebrew scholars are commissioned by Ptolemy II of Egypt to translate the Jewish Scriptures in Greek. This translation becomes known as the Septuagint and becomes the official translation of the Jews (now thoroughly steeped in Greek culture) for the next several centuries. All 46 books of the Old Testament are included.

30 AD: Christ is crucified.

35 AD: Paul’s conversion.

Circa 40-45 AD: Matthew’s Gospel.

50-67 AD: Mark’s Gospel.

50-63: Luke’s Gospel.

50-57: 1st Epistle to the Corinthians.

52-55: 1st and 2nd Epistles to the Thessalonians.

54-60: Epistle of James.

55-60: 2nd Epistle to the Corithians.

57-58: Epistle to the Galatians.

57-62: Epistle to the Colossians.

58: Epistle to the Romans.

59-63: Epistle to Philemon.

60-62: Luke writes the Acts of the Apostles.

61-62: Epistle to the Phillipians.

62-67: First Epistle to Timothy.

63: Epistle to the Ephesians.

63-64: 1st and 2nd Epistles of Peter.

63-64: Epistle of Jude.

65-69: Epistle to the Hebrews.

66-67: Epistle to Titus.

66-67: 2nd Epistle to Timothy.

70: Destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem.

75: The Didache.

85-96: John’s Gospel.

88-97: The Shepherd of Hermas.

90: The school of Pharisaic rabbis at Jamnia revisit the Hebrew Scriptures and remove the books that will later be known as the “deuterocanonicals.”

90: Pope Clement I’s Epistle to the Corinthians.

95-100: Epistles of John.

98-100: Revelation of John.

107: Epistles of Ignatius of Antioch.

130-131: Epistle of Barnabas.

150: Justin Martyr notes that Jews and Christians have differing Scriptures from before Christ.

150: The rise of Marcion questions the legitimacy of certain Scriptures, including all of the Gospels, save portions of Luke.

170: Earliest copy of the Muratorian Canon, which lists the Apocalypse of Peter and the Shepherd of Hermas as canonical Scripture.

189: Irenaeus of Lyons confirms the canonicity of the four Gospels. He also quotes Clement’s Epistle and the Shepherd of Hermas as Scripture.

195-210: Clement of Alexandria’s writings cite the Gospel of the Egyptians, the Gospel of the Hebrews, the Didache, Clement’s Epistle, the Epistle of Barnabas, the Apocalypse of Peter, the Preaching of Peter, the Assumption of Moses, and the Book of Enoch as Scripture.

200: Tertullian defends the Church against Marcion. He also regards The Shepherd of Hermas as canonical.

220-250: Origen writes that the Gospel of Peter, the Gospel of the Hebrews, the Didache, the Shepherd of Hermas, the Epistle of Barnabas, the Acts of Paul, and Clement’s Epistle are probably divinely inspired.

246-258: Cyprian of Carthage denies the canonicity of Hebrews, 2 Peter, James, and Jude.

300: Eusebius questions the canonicity of Revelation, James, Jude, 2 Peter, and 2 & 3 John.

315: Cyril of Jerusalem omits Revelation when listing the inspired books to catechumens.

320: Dating of the Codex Vaticanus, which lacks 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon, and Revelation.

330-350: Dating of the Codex Sinaiticus, which includes the Shepherd of Hermas and the Epistle of Barnabas.

367: Athanasian Canon, which includes the New Testament as it is now regarded.

382: Following the Council of Rome, Pope Damasus I issues a decree setting the canon as it is now found in Catholic Bibles.

393: The Council of Hippo affirms the Decree of Damasus.

397: The Third Council of Carthage affirms the Decree of Damasus, sending its affirmation and the rest of the canons adopted at its proceedings to Rome for ratification.

418: Pope Boniface I ratifies the canons of the Council of Carthage and sends copies to the sees of Antioch, Alexandria, and Jerusalem, resulting in informal acceptance of the canon world-wide.

419: The Fourth Council of Carthage re-affirms the actions of Pope Boniface. Canonical discussions remain mostly settled for the next three centuries.

787: The Second Council of Nicea formally ratifies the canon for the Eastern Churches.

1546: Faced with Protestant questions regarding the canon, the Council of Trent again re-affirms the Scriptures traditionally recognized by the Church.

 

[MDK]

So the Deutrocanonical Books were the only ones not in the Bible in 416 AD?

No, the Deuterocanonical Books were already part of the Bible, and were also included in the first Bible ever printed via printing press by Gutenberg, a devout Catholic man. The first King James version also had the Deuterocanon. Martin Luther, with no authority from God took them out, because he didn’t like them. They are a part of the legitimate Bible. Protestants use our NT, that was written by inspired Catholic men. Protestants reject the proper OT, like some of the people who rejected Christ.

 

[lookaround]

No, the Deuterocanonical Books were already part of the Bible, and were also included in the first Bible ever printed via printing press by Gutenberg, a devout Catholic man. The first King James version also had the Deuterocanon. Martin Luther, with no authority from God took them out, because he didn’t like them. They are a part of the legitimate Bible. Protestants use our NT, that was written by inspired Catholic men. Protestants reject the proper OT, like some of the people who rejected Christ.

Luther’s concern was that the Deuterocanon were not part of the Jews bible correct?

 

[fermat]

Luther’s concern was that the Deuterocanon were not part of the Jews bible correct?

That’s part of it. There are also theological constructs present in those books that are counter to most protestant thinking: prayer for the dead, etc.

I have always found ‘the reason that we don’t recognize it is because the Jews don’t recognize it’ a rather specious reason. The Jews don’t recognize any of the NT, either.