The Bible: when and where? (plz help)

[MDK]

Luther’s concern was that the Deuterocanon were not part of the Jews bible correct?

“The Jews” is too big of a group to say that all agreed. The Septuagint written by Jews in Greek language had these 7 books included. Other Jews didn’t like them because they weren’t writen in Hebrew. However, when Christ quoted OT Scripture, it was from the Septuagint about 90% of the time. The issue with Luther was and is whether he had the right to and also was correct to remove those books from the OT. The answer is that he did not have the authority, nor was he on God’s side when he did it. He was on Luther’s side. The full Bible shows Luther’s doctrines to be false. Luther didn’t like James either, which clearly describes that faith alone will not save one, so Luther called this Holy Spirit inspired text “an epistle of straw.” Kinda arrogant to criticize the Holy Spirit’s work, wouldn’t you say? Yet, millions have been misled by what Luther did.

What matters is that the Holy Spirit protected the Catholic Church from error in writing the table of contents of the Bible. Luther had no such protection, and removed 7 of the OT books that the Holy Spirit had led the Catholic Church to include.

Secondly, I certainly would say that it’s not a good precedent to follow the pattern of selected people who rejected Christ, when you are making commentary or attempting to make doctrine. Luther had no authority to make doctrine either. He changed the doctrine which Christ taught. Luther tried to change men’s behaviors by changing the word of God. How did that work out for you Luther, wherever you are?

 

[SemperReformada]

The Septuagint written by Jews in Greek language had these 7 books included.

The only versions of the LXX that we have knowledge of are Christian manuscripts that date only to around the 4th century. If I remember correctly, none of the versions of the LXX match precisely the OT canon that the Catholic church has accepted. Some LXX manuscripts have more books, some have less but none are an identical match to the RCC OT canon.

Many times Catholics will make claims that their OT canon matches the canon that Jesus and the apostles used (based on the LXX) but they make this claim with no evidence substantiate their claim.

 

[lookaround]

Many times Catholics will make claims that their OT canon matches the canon that Jesus and the apostles used (based on the LXX) but they make this claim with no evidence substantiate their claim.

I know this is not true. I have heard Protestants say that Jesus used the LXX.
That was the first time I ever learned about the LXX.

 

[SemperReformada]

I know this is not true. I have heard Protestants say that Jesus used the LXX.
That was the first time I ever learned about the LXX.

I am not sure what you think isn’t true. Could you explain?

 

[MDK]

The only versions of the LXX that we have knowledge of are Christian manuscripts that date only to around the 4th century. If I remember correctly, none of the versions of the LXX match precisely the OT canon that the Catholic church has accepted. Some LXX manuscripts have more books, some have less but none are an identical match to the RCC OT canon.

Many times Catholics will make claims that their OT canon matches the canon that Jesus and the apostles used (based on the LXX) but they make this claim with no evidence substantiate their claim.

So, where is it that you disagree with what I posted, other than you don’t have a penchant for the truth (otherwise, you would not be Protestant)? Nothing you wrote would deny what I posted.

You disagree with what Christ taught, and so form your own ecclesial community. It’s not surprising that you would disagree with those who follow what Christ established, who listen to those whom He sent to continue His mission.

What is really ironic here, is that you can’t deny what I wrote, yet attempt some kind of lame disagreement as though there were one, all the while denying the Church Christ built, not listening to those Christ sent, and therefore rejecting Christ. You can’t tell us without error what our Bible means, then you tell us we’re wrong, when we’re not. Please remove giant plank first!

Here’s one for you. Catholics wrote the NT. The Catholic Church authored the table of contents of the Bible. This is done with the protection of God.

Luther acted on his own to not only remove Books that God had inspired, but distorted God’s meanings. It’s just sad that people actually believe Luther instead of God.

 

[SemperReformada]

So, where is it that you disagree with what I posted, other than you don’t have a penchant for the truth (otherwise, you would not be Protestant)? Nothing you wrote would deny what I posted.

You disagree with what Christ taught, and so form your own ecclesial community. It’s not surprising that you would disagree with those who follow what Christ established, who listen to those whom He sent to continue His mission.

What is really ironic here, is that you can’t deny what I wrote, yet attempt some kind of lame disagreement as though there were one, all the while denying the Church Christ built, not listening to those Christ sent, and therefore rejecting Christ. You can’t tell us without error what our Bible means, then you tell us we’re wrong, when we’re not. Please remove giant plank first!

Here’s one for you. Catholics wrote the NT. The Catholic Church authored the table of contents of the Bible. This is done with the protection of God.

Luther acted on his own to not only remove Books that God had inspired, but distorted God’s meanings. It’s just sad that people actually believe Luther instead of God.

You said “The Septuagint written by Jews in Greek language had these 7 books included. Other Jews didn’t like them because they weren’t writen in Hebrew. However, when Christ quoted OT Scripture, it was from the Septuagint about 90% of the time…”.

First we have no knowledge of precisely what books the LXX of the 1st century included.

Second, the manuscripts of the LXX we have are all Christian manuscripts from centuries later than the time of Jesus or the apostles.

Third, the manuscripts we do have (Christian though they are) do not match the OT canon of the RCC.

Whether or not my post was “lame” at least it’s accurate.

 

[MDK]

I am not sure what you think isn’t true. Could you explain?

Please come to the fullness of revealed truth, which is only available in God’s New Covenant Church, the same Church Christ built and later authored the Bible. Christ established the office of Head Bishop for His Church, starting with Peter. This one Church still exists today, with the office of Head Bishop occupied by Benedict XVI. Accept no weak imitations from those whose ecclesial communities cannot be called a proper church.

For starters, recommend a man who saw the light of what the Bible is and is not, former Protestant Steve Ray.

Another good article by By Kenneth J. Howell is worth reading.

 

[SemperReformada]

Please come to the fullness of revealed truth, which is only available in God’s New Covenant Church, the same Church Christ built and later authored the Bible. Christ established the office of Head Bishop for His Church, starting with Peter. This one Church still exists today, with the office of Head Bishop occupied by Benedict XVI. Accept no weak imitations from those whose ecclesial communities cannot be called a proper church.

For starters, recommend a man who saw the light of what the Bible is and is not, former Protestant Steve Ray.

Another good article by By Kenneth J. Howell is worth reading.

Re-read your post 25. Why on earth would I want to attend church with someone of your disposition?

 

[MDK]

You said “The Septuagint written by Jews in Greek language had these 7 books included. Other Jews didn’t like them because they weren’t writen in Hebrew. However, when Christ quoted OT Scripture, it was from the Septuagint about 90% of the time…”.

First we have no knowledge of precisely what books the LXX of the 1st century included.

Second, the manuscripts of the LXX we have are all Christian manuscripts from centuries later than the time of Jesus or the apostles.

Third, the manuscripts we do have (Christian though they are) do not match the OT canon of the RCC.

Whether or not my post was “lame” at least it’s accurate.

The lameness is that you present a false argument. There were several versions of the Septuagint. To say we have “no knowledge” is misleading, because it was not a defined canon of a specific set of books.

It is lame argument also because you have no idea of authority of God, and so you lump everyone in as though they all have equal weight. Nothing could be further from the truth (but, sadly Protestants adhere to this falsehood).

Please at least be decent enough to point to the manuscripts that you claim don’t agree with the OT which the Holy Spirit said was inspired, so I can correct you here too.

So, no, your post was not accurate. It was misleading,built on false arguments, tending to mislead in conclusion. If you adhered to Catholicism, you would not have to be wrong anymore.

 

[SemperReformada]

The lameness is that you present a false argument. There were several versions of the Septuagint. To say we have “no knowledge” is misleading, because it was not a defined canon of a specific set of books.

It is lame argument also because you have no idea of authority of God, and so you lump everyone in as though they all have equal weight. Nothing could be further from the truth (but, sadly Protestants adhere to this falsehood).

Please at least be decent enough to point to the manuscripts that you claim don’t agree with the OT which the Holy Spirit said was inspired, so I can correct you here too.

So, no, your post was not accurate. It was misleading,built on false arguments, tending to mislead in conclusion. If you adhered to Catholicism, you would not have to be wrong anymore.

If I am wrong it should be a simple matter for you to list the books contained within the LXX that Jesus and the apostles used and then explain how you know which books were contained. Afterall, you have an infallible body to assist you in this matter.

BTW, you haven’t corrected me on anything thus far. I’ll give you the manuscripts in my next post.

 

[MDK]

Re-read your post 25. Why on earth would I want to attend church with someone of your disposition?

First, it’s God’s Church, and He only made one. The real question is why you would not want to be in it.

Second, I don’t like it when people try to distort the truth of God, which you are doing. It is damaging to yourself, and potentially others.

Third, you have no idea of my disposition in reality. I don’t even think you have a real clue of the reasons I write as I do, nor what it really means. Protestants create their own faith, and so take criticism very intensely personal, as though a personal attack. The truth is that Protestantism is a collection of bad habits and practices that are imprisoning God’s children. I decry these bad habits and bad customs that keep you and others away from God. Jesus is Truth. You won’t know him by believing in lies, such as those Luther had foisted and therefore mislead millions. I’d like to break you free of bad behaviors and false beliefs that keep you from knowing God (Truth).

Protestantism harms people. I tell others that to seek the truth without limits is to be on the road away from Protestantism and toward Catholicism. Former Protestant Henry Newman said “To be deep into history, is to cease to be Protestant.”

 

[MDK]

If I am wrong it should be a simple matter for you to list the books contained within the LXX that Jesus and the apostles used and then explain how you know which books were contained. Afterall, you have an infallible body to assist you in this matter.

BTW, you haven’t corrected me on anything thus far. I’ll give you the manuscripts in my next post.

You can lead a horse to water, right? I have indeed corrected you, and shared truth with you. You have to break free of the mindset of Protestantism, in order to see and accept the truth.

You post falsely again, claiming I said something I did not. I said the Septuagint had several versions, which is true. You’re treating it like it was only one set of completely defined books… which is once again misleading.

The only books I’ve discussed in the Septuagint were the seven deuterocanonical books. Decent people would agree. To post these seven books would be insulting, as I think we all know what they are, and it would take the focus off the real discussion here. If you really need them, though I will post them.

 

[SemperReformada]

Codex Vaticanus
Codex Alexandrinus
Codex Sainaticus

Spelling may be a little off.

I don’t recall you yet demonstrating how you know what books were contained within the LXX of the 1st century. Full of bluster are you?

 

[MDK]

…
I don’t recall you yet demonstrating how you know what books were contained within the LXX of the 1st century. Full of bluster are you?

Once again, you have a false accusation, perhaps of some confusion. Here is the truth. I said the seven Deuterocononical books were in the Septuagint, did I not? It would be insulting to list these for you. I also said that there were several versions of the Septuagint, and so you ignore this as well, and instead ask for some single canon as though there were only one at that time. I also said the authority of the Holy Spirit guided God’s one Church into the correct books for the Bible. This is the real disagreement. To claim otherwise is to be completely off the mark, and likely to have a side agenda.

Did you read the links that I posted for you? This could help you.

 

[MDK]

Re-read your post 25. Why on earth would I want to attend church with someone of your disposition?

This also is a good illustration of how the Protestant mindset keeps its adherents from really knowing what God has revealed for us, and His Sacraments.

The quote from the Protestant was an attempted jab (empty as it was), but also illustrates the mindset of Protestantism in relation to the Church. Protestant thinking is one where they join an ecclesial community based on what they like or prefer, someone they like or don’t like. It is a faith system of what they prefer, and not what God established. Do you hear them say that they will look for the Church of God, and not stop until they have found it? No. If they don’t like the one they attend, the option is to go to one that agrees with their thinking. So, the ecclesial community ends up being like-minded individuals whose “religion” agreess with their human thought and preferences, likes and dislikes including the teachings which are simply also a matter of their likes and dislikes. This is an arrogant and prideful mindset, that actually keeps people from Christ.

What we must do is seek God’s one Church, which teaches the fullness of revealed truth, has God’s Sacraments, and which changes us to conform to what He desires we be, and brings us closer to Him.

 

[SemperReformada]

This also is a good illustration of how the Protestant mindset keeps its adherents from really knowing what God has revealed for us, and His Sacraments.

The quote from the Protestant was an attempted jab (empty as it was), but also illustrates the mindset of Protestantism in relation to the Church. Protestant thinking is one where they join an ecclesial community based on what they like or prefer, someone they like or don’t like. It is a faith system of what they prefer, and not what God established. Do you hear them say that they will look for the Church of God, and not stop until they have found it? No. If they don’t like the one they attend, the option is to go to one that agrees with their thinking. So, the ecclesial community ends up being like-minded individuals whose “religion” agreess with their human thought and preferences, likes and dislikes including the teachings which are simply also a matter of their likes and dislikes. This is an arrogant and prideful mindset, that actually keeps people from Christ.

What we must do is seek God’s one Church, which teaches the fullness of revealed truth, has God’s Sacraments, and which changes us to conform to what He desires we be, and brings us closer to Him.

Despite all your blathering you have as of yet to demonstrate what I said was in error.

 

[SemperReformada]

Once again, you have a false accusation, perhaps of some confusion. Here is the truth. I said the seven Deuterocononical books were in the Septuagint, did I not? It would be insulting to list these for you. I also said that there were several versions of the Septuagint, and so you ignore this as well, and instead ask for some single canon as though there were only one at that time. I also said the authority of the Holy Spirit guided God’s one Church into the correct books for the Bible. This is the real disagreement. To claim otherwise is to be completely off the mark, and likely to have a side agenda.

Did you read the links that I posted for you? This could help you.

Your reading comprehension skills are very poor. Go back and read my original post.

As to your claim about the 7 apocryphal books appearing in the LXX, which version or versions of the LXX did they appear in? Were any additional apocryphal books contained within that particular manuscript? What is the earliest date of that manuscript?

You can rant all you want but unless I missed something you haven’t done anything to demonstrate that my original post was in error. Good luck.

 

[SemperReformada]

Did you read the links that I posted for you? This could help you.

I’ve read both articles before and I skimmed over them and didn’t see anything that addresses my original post. Perhaps you could be more specific?

Also, I highly recommend Steve Rays article about Jamnia because at least he admits the Jews at Jamnia DID NOT even discuss the apocryphal books.

 

[MDK]

Codex Vaticanus
Codex Alexandrinus
Codex Sainaticus

Spelling may be a little off…

Let’s recap before moving along. Your claim was “the manuscripts we do have (Christian though they are) do not match the OT canon of the RCC.”

To start, I really don’t think you understand what these three documents are. I think one who did would likely not make the claim you made.

Secondly, the Greek New Testament is inspired, and the Holy Spirit chose to have the inspired authors of this sacred document repeatedly cite the Septuagint (LXX). The importance and authenticity of the Septuagint is demonstrated by the Holy Spirit in this way.

The deception you propose is that these are different than the RCC OT, and so the RCC OT is not valid. This is a false claim from the Protestant or Protestant community. The deception by the Protestant falls apart in that none of these three documents represent a complete set of renderings, because original folios are missing from the Vaticanus. The Codex Sinaiticus, which originally likely contained the whole OT, has suffered severely from mutilation. Besides, the Codex Alexandrinus contains the Catholic Canon, obviously including the deuterocanonical books which we are discussing here. So, I don’t see any problem here with the RCC Bible, which was inspired by the Holy Sprit. Once again, it’s simply what the Protestant wants to be true, and not what is true. The important thing is what God has done here, and yet the Protestant prefers their own desires to what God desires and has done. This is why I maintain that adherence to Protestantism is harmful to anyone who truly desires to be close to God.

 

[MDK]

Despite all your blathering you have as of yet to demonstrate what I said was in error.

I forgive you for the lack of charity. I have indeed, but you can’t see it yet. It is a matter of authority, which you subscribe to a false authority which contradicts God’s authority. This is the root of the issue, from which the rest of your problems come. To answer you as you desire directly would not move us anywhere, which is pretty much what Protestantism does. I have asked you to come into the fullness of revealed truth, and you are doing the equivalent of looking at a small piece of bark on a tree and claiming to know the entire forest from it. I am describing the forest which God revealed, and telling you how certain trees fit into the forest. Protestantism doesn’t work for you, nor anyone. The reason is that God didn’t make Protestantism, which opposes His Church.