The Bishops and Music

[lak611]

GC is not going away, when done correctly it can be beautiful, but even then is no more spiritual than other genres. It is just one tool in the musical toolbox.

Where is it? I have been to many parishes in my diocese and have never heard it?

 

[benedictgal]

I have talked about policies and paper and how they are best applied in the real world. No need to rehash it now.

And he is only one Cardinal, only one opinion, and far from infallible (not official in this instance). Remember each layer down from Rome allows for local variances (I think Jim posted on that in another music thread).

GC is not going away, when done correctly it can be beautiful, but even then is no more spiritual than other genres. It is just one tool in the musical toolbox.

He may have been one cardinal, at that time (and, also, at that time, the No. 2 man on the Roman totem pole), but, he IS NOW the HOLY FATHER, and, that carries a lot of weight, along with a huge bully pulpit. And, what he has said as Cardinal Ratzinger is now coming to fruition under Pope Benedict XVI.

You still have not answered my questions as to whether or not you’ve read any of the documents. Anyhow, you can shoot all you want, but the ducks aren’t going to fall.

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

Where is it? I have been to many parishes in my diocese and have never heard it?

Just because the tool is available does mean there is any “conspiracy” to suppress it. Again, that decision is on the local level with the music ministers library plus ability of people who want but more importantly can sing it (as it is more difficult to do than other genres and most music ministers/choirs may not be up to the challenge).

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

He may have been one cardinal, at that time (and, also, at that time, the No. 2 man on the Roman totem pole), but, he IS NOW the HOLY FATHER, and, that carries a lot of weight, along with a huge bully pulpit. And, what he has said as Cardinal Ratzinger is now coming to fruition under Pope Benedict XVI.

You still have not answered my questions as to whether or not you’ve read any of the documents. Anyhow, you can shoot all you want, but the ducks aren’t going to fall.

Well, in your eyes I will get nowhere. The point is how the documents can be best applied on the local level. Remember application in day to day parishes is much different from an announcement on paper. Bishops and even priests have the ability to have variances on the local level worldwide. This is just one suggestion from Rome on the ideal setup but far from the only option. Rome knows that real life is far from theoretical ideals.

 

[benedictgal]

Just because the tool is available does mean there is any “conspiracy” to suppress it. Again, that decision is on the local level with the music ministers library plus ability of people who want but more importantly can sing it (as it is more difficult to do than other genres and most music ministers/choirs may not be up to the challenge).

Obviously, you have never heard Attende Domine, O Sun of Justice, Creator of the Stars of Night and Parce Domine. These are GC and are very easy to sing. Even the Salve Regina is quite easy. I had it sung for my grandmother’s funeral. It was beautiful.

Don’t make blanket statements like that, lest people like me can easily refute them.

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

Obviously, you have never heard Attende Domine, O Sun of Justice, Creator of the Stars of Night and Parce Domine. These are GC and are very easy to sing. Even the Salve Regina is quite easy. I had it sung for my grandmother’s funeral. It was beautiful.

Don’t make blanket statements like that, lest people like me can easily refute them.

Well, maybe that fact is not well known among music ministers. The library is so vast on what to choose from, it can be easily overlooked. If that is well known, things may or may not change, again it is then a local parish issue.

 

[benedictgal]

Well, maybe that fact is not well known among music ministers. The library is so vast on what to choose from, it can be easily overlooked. If that is well known, things may or may not change, again it is then a local parish issue.

Obviously, from the tone of your posts, you advocate a “cafeteria-style” Mass where you can sing whatever you want.

The Mass is about something beyond the “real world.” In fact, we encounter the totally Wholly Other who transcends time and space. Therefore, the music fitting for this enounter that we call the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass needs to be worthy of this noble activity. Unfortunately, what pases today for liturgical music is “only a shadow” of what we should have.

You still have not indicated the official documents that back your position. Or, do you quickly discount them because they are not to your liking, and, will subsequently prove you wrong?

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

Obviously, from the tone of your posts, you advocate a “cafeteria-style” Mass where you can sing whatever you want.

The Mass is about something beyond the “real world.” In fact, we encounter the totally Wholly Other who transcends time and space. Therefore, the music fitting for this enounter that we call the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass needs to be worthy of this noble activity. Unfortunately, what pases today for liturgical music is “only a shadow” of what we should have.

You still have not indicated the official documents that back your position. Or, do you quickly discount them because they are not to your liking, and, will subsequently prove you wrong?

“Whatever you want” is putting words in my mouth.

We have a selection of books that the bishops have approved and are in use now. It is then up to the priest (or parish administrator) and liturgical coordinator/music ministers to go from there on the local level.

Bishops and priests are given variances on what can be done at the local level in relation to other documents from Rome. The mass as done in the real world is a mix of local and global discussions. Music is one that has been given a wide variance because of what the people in the pews actually experience. Not everyone gets enlighted to one genre of music, that is why there are choices, for people and season. We are a diverse church, not uniform church (nothing in life is truly uniform when many people are involved) and that is reflected by the choices on the local level.

 

[benedictgal]

“Whatever you want” is putting words in my mouth.

We have a selection of books that the bishops have approved and are in use now. It is then up to the priest (or parish administrator) and liturgical coordinator/music ministers to go from there on the local level.

Bishops and priests are given variances on what can be done at the local level in relation to other documents from Rome. The mass as done in the real world is a mix of local and global discussions. Music is one that has been given a wide variance because of what the people in the pews actually experience. Not everyone gets enlighted to one genre of music, that is why there are choices, for people and season. We are a diverse church, not uniform church (nothing in life is truly uniform when many people are involved) and that is reflected by the choices on the local level.

We are, indeed, uniform. We have to be in order to be in communoin with Rome. You want local level, try the Baptists or any other Protestant ecclesial community. It doesn’t work that way with the Catholic Church. Yes, there is diversity, but when it comes to the Mass and the sacraments, there must be uniformity.

You can’t have it both ways, ULM. It’s just not possible.

 

[RomanRevert]

Modern happy clappy music is absurd in the Mass. I was at Mass on Sunday the music of which, unfortunately, turned out to be a of the happy clappy genre. Having the priest chant and then having the schola kick in with a snappy beat was liturgical schizophrenia. It was penitential just being there and enduring that. It seems that music like that is intended to entertain the congregation and not so much to worship the Almighty… I am really at the point where I prefer weekday Masses with no music just so I don’t to participate in musical novelties.

 

[benedictgal]

Modern happy clappy music is absurd in the Mass. I was at Mass on Sunday the music of which, unfortunately, turned out to be a of the happy clappy genre. Having the priest chant and then having the schola kick in with a snappy beat was liturgical schizophrenia. It was penitential just being there and enduring that. It seems that music like that is intended to entertain the congregation and not so much to worship the Almighty… I am really at the point where I prefer weekday Masses with no music just so I don’t to participate in musical novelties.

My PV stopped having hymns during daily Mass. All we sing is the gospel acclamation, Sanctus, Memorial and Great Amen. He goes ahead and reads the antiphons. It’s much better that way.

One bright spot in this document is the fact that the bishops have set down priorities as to what needs to be sung during Mass and what we could leave out.

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

We are, indeed, uniform. We have to be in order to be in communoin with Rome. You want local level, try the Baptists or any other Protestant ecclesial community. It doesn’t work that way with the Catholic Church. Yes, there is diversity, but when it comes to the Mass and the sacraments, there must be uniformity.

You can’t have it both ways, ULM. It’s just not possible.

Not with music preferences. Different preferences in genres is allowed. Local parishes are not the same as Rome, there are variances, no two parishes worldwide are alike. Music preferences are different.

One of the best masses I was at was at a downtown Minneapolis parish using songs in English, French, and some African language, all in a daily mass of all things. The pronunciation was on the projectors off to the sides. While there is much similarity between music books, if you page through all of them it is a pretty diverse music genre selection. That is then up to the local parish on what to choose when. We do not have day to day music selected by someone in Rome for a worldwide usage every single day. That would not work well over many different local cultures worldwide.

 

[benedictgal]

Not with music preferences. Different preferences in genres is allowed. Local parishes are not the same as Rome, there are variances, no two parishes worldwide are alike. Music preferences are different.

One of the best masses I was at was at a downtown Minneapolis parish using songs in English, French, and some African language, all in a daily mass of all things. The pronunciation was on the projectors off to the sides. While there is much similarity between music books, if you page through all of them it is a pretty diverse music genre selection. That is then up to the local parish on what to choose when. We do not have day to day music selected by someone in Rome for a worldwide usage every single day. That would not work well over many different local cultures worldwide.

So now, you think that anything Rome hands down is bad? That is a new one. So, I guess you are against uniformity. Projectors are not suitable for use at the Mass. This is the Holy Sacrifice, not a powerpoint presentation.

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

So now, you think that anything Rome hands down is bad? That is a new one. So, I guess you are against uniformity. Projectors are not suitable for use at the Mass. This is the Holy Sacrifice, not a powerpoint presentation.

No, that is not what I said. What I am saying is that expecting total uniformity across the entire Church is unrealistic due to the diversity of the world it is in. The Church is diverse because the world is diverse. While there are similarities everywhere there is always a unique local flavor in every different parish you go to around the world.

The lyric projectors are very unobtrusive and turn off between songs.

 

[benedictgal]

No, that is not what I said. What I am saying is that expecting total uniformity across the entire Church is unrealistic due to the diversity of the world it is in. The Church is diverse because the world is diverse. While there are similarities everywhere there is always a unique local flavor in every different parish you go to around the world.

The lyric projectors are very unobtrusive and turn off between songs.

While the Church is diverse, there is still exists uniformity in the liturgy. That is the point that you fail to see. Furthermore, projectors have no place in church. It is not an auditorium or a meeting hall. It is the house of God.

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

So now, you think that anything Rome hands down is bad? That is a new one. So, I guess you are against uniformity. Projectors are not suitable for use at the Mass. This is the Holy Sacrifice, not a powerpoint presentation.

I also want to add this, I finally found it in the “abuse” thread. Jim is credited with the initial post.

From Redemptionis Sacramentum;

Bold, is my emphasis;

Quote:
21. It pertains to the diocesan Bishop, then, “within the limits of his competence, to set forth liturgical norms in his Diocese, by which all are bound.”45 Still, the Bishop must take care not to allow the removal of that liberty foreseen by the norms of the liturgical books so that the celebration may be adapted in an intelligent manner to the church building, or to the group of the faithful who are present, or to particular pastoral circumstances in such a way that the universal sacred Rite is truly accommodated to human understanding.46

I believe that this part is what you were looking for in the discussion about diversity in music selection on the parish level.

 

[benedictgal]

I also want to add this, I finally found it in the “abuse” thread. Jim is credited with the initial post.

I believe that this part is what you were looking for in the discussion about diversity in music selection on the parish level.

Well, you finally got a duck to fall off the ground. Both you and Jim should be proud of yourselves. However, I hope that you aren’t taking this quote out of context, as Jim did with his American citation. I’ll read the whole thing for myself.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Well, you finally got a duck to fall off the ground. Both you and Jim should be proud of yourselves. However, I hope that you aren’t taking this quote out of context, as Jim did with his American citation. I’ll read the whole thing for myself.

Taken out of context?

The document is very clear and is only taken out of context in your mind, because you don’t agree with it.

Rome knows that one shoe doesn’t fit all. People in Asian parishes are going to have a different taste in liturgical music
than a parish in Austin Texas. The document specifies the Bishop as the the authority to determine the norms that are proper for “human understanding,” in their situation.

Mandating that a Parish in Japan, use Gregorian Chant, would be foolish, just as it would be foolish to mandated it in every parish in the United States. Gregorian Chant is suited, means, you can’t go wrong with it, but it doesn’t exclude, other styles of sacred music.

Jim

 

[Wolseley]

Just because the tool is available does mean there is any “conspiracy” to suppress it. Again, that decision is on the local level with the music ministers library plus ability of people who want but more importantly can sing it (as it is more difficult to do than other genres and most music ministers/choirs may not be up to the challenge).

In other words, if the music ministers cannot play pipe organs, then the people in the pews will just have to be content with them playing kazoos.

I’d prefer Masses with no music at all.

 

[Wolseley]

Well, in your eyes I will get nowhere. The point is how the documents can be best applied on the local level. Remember application in day to day parishes is much different from an announcement on paper. Bishops and even priests have the ability to have variances on the local level worldwide. This is just one suggestion from Rome on the ideal setup but far from the only option. Rome knows that real life is far from theoretical ideals.

Odd that this problem didn’t seem to exist for 400 years before Vatican II…