The blessed Virgin and Traditionalism generally-speaking

[GloriousOrder]

Friends ,

Is it possible to be a traditionalist and not pray to Mary every single day? I find it a very interesting thought-experiment. Looking at the 1962 Missal (Angelus), the Morning and Evening prayer recommendations are saturated with this devotion. The Angelus is obviously bathed in Mariology. Just why, for example, do we say three Hail Marys each time “in honor of the Immaculate Conception”? Why not three Our Fathers in honor of the resurrection during morning, and crucifixion during the evening? Is St. Mary so crucial to salvation?

I’m asking this because I’m composing my own personal “traditional” morning and evening prayers to rise and to sleep. It’s a good substitute for the Divine Office when I don’t have it. There’s a logical sequence of the Sign, Our Father, a Creed, several Gloria Patri, Te Deum for every morning (“keep us this day without sin”), an Examination/Confiteor/Act of Contrition in the evening, and several prayers of my own invention from the Scriptures.

In creating this set of individual prayers, is it “un-traditional” of me to leave out all Marian hymns, prayers, and salutations? Can one actually be a traditionalist without devotion to the blessed Virgin in some form? It doesn’t seem so! I find this a very interesting question to ask, because everywhere I go I am (unintentionally, to be sure) made to feel guilty for having zero devotion to St. Mary, other than to ask for her prayers occasionally. Trads often seem to be so big on devotion to her that I find it somewhat distracting from Christ. That’s just me… and it isn’t necessarily part of the question.

 

[TimothyH]

I have no idea whether including or leaving out Marian hymns, prayers, and salutations merits or denies one the right to label onself “Traditionalist.” If your concern is really whether you can honestly use the title “Traditionalist” if you don’t have devotion to Mary, then I have nothing to add to this thread and beg everyone’s forgiveness for venturing off topic.

The fact that you have posted about it though, indicates that lack of devotion to Mary in the face of so much devotion to her in the Church throughout history is a concern for you. That concern is coming from somewhere. Consider that God might be calling you to his Mother.

I honestly think you are ignoring the quickest, shortest, and easiest way to Christ and would urge you, as I have been doing, to ask Jesus in prayer to introduce you to his mother. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

-Tim-

 

[GloriousOrder]

I have no idea whether including or leaving out Marian hymns, prayers, and salutations merits or denies one the right to label onself “Traditionalist.” If your concern is really whether you can honestly use the title “Traditionalist” if you don’t have devotion to Mary, then I have nothing to add to this thread and beg everyone’s forgiveness for venturing off topic.

The fact that you have posted about it though, indicates that lack of devotion to Mary in the face of so much devotion to her in the Church throughout history is a concern for you. That concern is coming from somewhere. Consider that God might be calling you to his Mother.

I honestly think you are ignoring the quickest, shortest, and easiest way to Christ and would urge you, as I have been doing, to ask Jesus in prayer to introduce you to his mother. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Several things to flesh out which bother me about it:

1. My concern is precisely that the Church has too much devotion, not that I lack devotion. It may be the other way around (humility dictates), but who knows? The Church can get hyperbolic; it isn’t perfect, except in preserving faith and morals.
2. Christ is not the one to whom we are going. He says this Himself. The Father is our end, and Christ is the way. We don’t need a “way” to Christ, since He is the very way we travel, right? The road begins where it begins, and there is no road leading to the first road. To call Mary the way to Christ is very confusing to me, because it seems to add a step which is not necessary. Did He not say “ask anything in my Name (God Saves) and it shall be given you”? I didn’t read “ask anything in Mary’s name and I will hear you”!

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

Friends ,

Is it possible to be a traditionalist and not pray to Mary every single day? I find it a very interesting thought-experiment. Looking at the 1962 Missal (Angelus), the Morning and Evening prayer recommendations are saturated with this devotion. The Angelus is obviously bathed in Mariology. Just why, for example, do we say three Hail Marys each time “in honor of the Immaculate Conception”? Why not three Our Fathers in honor of the resurrection during morning, and crucifixion during the evening? Is St. Mary so crucial to salvation?

I’m asking this because I’m composing my own personal “traditional” morning and evening prayers to rise and to sleep. It’s a good substitute for the Divine Office when I don’t have it. There’s a logical sequence of the Sign, Our Father, a Creed, several Gloria Patri, Te Deum for every morning (“keep us this day without sin”), an Examination/Confiteor/Act of Contrition in the evening, and several prayers of my own invention from the Scriptures.

In creating this set of individual prayers, is it “un-traditional” of me to leave out all Marian hymns, prayers, and salutations? Can one actually be a traditionalist without devotion to the blessed Virgin in some form? It doesn’t seem so! I find this a very interesting question to ask, because everywhere I go I am (unintentionally, to be sure) made to feel guilty for having zero devotion to St. Mary, other than to ask for her prayers occasionally. Trads often seem to be so big on devotion to her that I find it somewhat distracting from Christ. That’s just me… and it isn’t necessarily part of the question.

I do not thnik you have zero devotion for Mary. The way you think is disturbing you. Why could not be that way and that and that. It could be a millions schemes.

I think comparisons disturb. Do not compare. Do what you feel better. Thinking that others have their own reasons.

The Holy Spirit will lead you to whatever path He wants you to go.

Good Journey.

 

[Warrenton]

Friends ,

I find this a very interesting question to ask, because everywhere I go I am (unintentionally, to be sure) made to feel guilty for having zero devotion to St. Mary, other than to ask for her prayers occasionally.

Chesterton said in an essay that what attracted him about the Catholic Church was its ability to inform. Each day, he said, offered the hope of believing in something new, in contrast with Protestantism or secular ideas, which always seem to be decaying into reduced versions of themselves.

By way of example, he said he personally never felt the great veneration for virginity that marks the C.C. But, he said, the delightful thing is knowing that any day he might wake up and say “Aha! Now I see!”

I think that Chesterton has his finger on the pulse of the Catholic mindset - do not fret about not following all the Church’s thinking: there is just too much of it for one mortal to master. Rather, cultivate the power of suspending judgement while continuing with your own thoughts and beliefs that are consistent with sound doctrine.

Not only does this keep one safely “in the fold” (so to speak), it is, as GK said, rather good fun.

Cheers!

 

[At_Trent]

Only speaking for myself here…

I can’t imagine myself not asking Our Lady’s intercession on a daily basis. I can’t imagine attending Mass without thinking of her. God has sent her so many times to children, religious, clergy… her role in Catholicism is so deeply rooted.

Christianity/Catholicism began the day of the Immaculate Conception (imo). I couldn’t ignore Our Lady if I tried. I can’t imagine practicing Catholicism without her on my mind throughout each day. And thinking of her makes me pray.

Pius XII said “Her kingdom is as vast as that of her Son and God, since nothing is excluded from her dominion.”
ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4.htm

 

[TrueLight]

Several things to flesh out which bother me about it:

1. My concern is precisely that the Church has too much devotion, not that I lack devotion. It may be the other way around (humility dictates), but who knows? The Church can get hyperbolic; it isn’t perfect, except in preserving faith and morals.
2. Christ is not the one to whom we are going. He says this Himself. The Father is our end, and Christ is the way. We don’t need a “way” to Christ, since He is the very way we travel, right? The road begins where it begins, and there is no road leading to the first road. To call Mary the way to Christ is very confusing to me, because it seems to add a step which is not necessary. Did He not say “ask anything in my Name (God Saves) and it shall be given you”? I didn’t read “ask anything in Mary’s name and I will hear you”!

Glorious Order,

You and I have the same viewpoint when it comes to Marianology. If there is one thing that sets me apart from other trads is the Marianology . I too have wondered every now and then if that makes me – not traditional, especially since I’m going to start a traditional blog soon. Would it be weird if it didn’t have all sorts of Marian devotions and Novenas?

I also see it as an extra step. Coming from Protestantism, I am used to going to Jesus. I don’t see a need to add an extra step. Maybe some cradle catholics were raised that way and that’s how they were taught to pray. But I personally believe I can pray to the Father through Jesus, directly. Not because I’m worthy, or holy but because Jesus said I could.

That doesn’t mean I don’t ask for our Lady’s intercession in some things. But I cannot agree with the “only way to Jesus is through Mary” viewpoint.

I am only stating this to say I empathize.

Maybe this is something that will be revealed to me in time.

 

[GloriousOrder]

I fully reckon and concur that it will be revealed to us all, either one-by-one, or at the End. Such wise responses here give me hope and a lighter heart.

 

[At_Trent]

Glorious Order,

You and I have the same viewpoint when it comes to Marianology. If there is one thing that sets me apart from other trads is the Marianology . I too have wondered every now and then if that makes me – not traditional, especially since I’m going to start a traditional blog soon. Would it be weird if it didn’t have all sorts of Marian devotions and Novenas?

I also see it as an extra step. Coming from Protestantism, I am used to going to Jesus. I don’t see a need to add an extra step. Maybe some cradle catholics were raised that way and that’s how they were taught to pray. But I personally believe I can pray to the Father through Jesus, directly. Not because I’m worthy, or holy but because Jesus said I could.

That doesn’t mean I don’t ask for our Lady’s intercession in some things. But I cannot agree with the “only way to Jesus is through Mary” viewpoint.

I am only stating this to say I empathize.

Maybe this is something that will be revealed to me in time.

Hmm, someone will correct me if I’m wrong, but praying the the father through Jesus seems odd to me. As He is one in being with the Father.

At any rate, Mary as Mediatrix has been taught both before and since VII. You can pray to Jesus and the Father of course. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[GloriousOrder]

Hmm, someone will correct me if I’m wrong, but praying the the father through Jesus seems odd to me. As He is one in being with the Father.

At any rate, Mary as Mediatrix has been taught both before and since VII. You can pray to Jesus and the Father of course. Nothing wrong with that.

Traditionalists are fond of saying that the Mass is the perfect prayer of the Church. The Collects are always directed to the Father, and every one of these types of prayers in the Mass ends with some variation on “through Christ our Lord”. Formulae even exist for composing collects. If you have the Angelus 1962 Missal look at page XLVI. All Collects end with “per Dominum nostrum”, “per eundem Dominum nostrum”, “Qui tecum vivit et regnat”, and “Qui vivis et regnas”. Every last one is to the Father, or the blessed Trinity as a “whole”.

Perhaps if the Mass (again, the perfect prayer of the Church) said “per Maria mater nostra”, I’d be less concerned. If the Mass itself doesn’t offer prayers to Christ through Mary, but to the Father through Christ, that tells me something great.

 

[jmj1984]

Traditionalists are fond of saying that the Mass is the perfect prayer of the Church. The Collects are always directed to the Father, and every one of these types of prayers in the Mass ends with some variation on “through Christ our Lord”. Formulae even exist for composing collects. If you have the Angelus 1962 Missal look at page XLVI. All Collects end with “per Dominum nostrum”, “per eundem Dominum nostrum”, “Qui tecum vivit et regnat”, and “Qui vivis et regnas”. Every last one is to the Father, or the blessed Trinity as a “whole”.

Perhaps if the Mass (again, the perfect prayer of the Church) said “per Maria mater nostra”, I’d be less concerned. If the Mass itself doesn’t offer prayers to Christ through Mary, but to the Father through Christ, that tells me something great.

I think we should make one thing clear, the idea that one does not need or should not have a devotion to Mary is not catholic traditional catholic or otherwise. As such you will not be able to find any evidence from the church, doctrinal or otherwise to support your view. You can that view but it is not the view of the church or its saints.

As for trying to seek support for that view from the Mass, the amount of masses that mention the Blessed Virgin Mary in the collects or the feasts celebrated in her honour as well as the numerous saints who attest to the necessity of devotion to her should tell you something about how ‘Catholic’ your view is.

One should also point out that the mass being the unbloody renewal of the sacrifice on Calvary it is offered directly to God the Father by the priest who represents Christ, Mary is not therefore directly involved in the Canon of Mass, though she is of course mentioned in the Prayers after mass.

 

[TrueLight]

Hmm, someone will correct me if I’m wrong, but praying the the father through Jesus seems odd to me. As He is one in being with the Father.

At any rate, Mary as Mediatrix has been taught both before and since VII. You can pray to Jesus and the Father of course. Nothing wrong with that.

Personally, when I pray I sometimes pray to Jesus, and I sometimes pray to the Father. They are one.

Jesus said:

“And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.” (John 16:23)

So when I say pray to the Father through Jesus, what I mean is praying to the Father and asking for something in Jesus’ name.

 

[At_Trent]

Traditionalists are fond of saying that the Mass is the perfect prayer of the Church. The Collects are always directed to the Father, and every one of these types of prayers in the Mass ends with some variation on “through Christ our Lord”. Formulae even exist for composing collects. If you have the Angelus 1962 Missal look at page XLVI. All Collects end with “per Dominum nostrum”, “per eundem Dominum nostrum”, “Qui tecum vivit et regnat”, and “Qui vivis et regnas”. Every last one is to the Father, or the blessed Trinity as a “whole”.

Perhaps if the Mass (again, the perfect prayer of the Church) said “per Maria mater nostra”, I’d be less concerned. If the Mass itself doesn’t offer prayers to Christ through Mary, but to the Father through Christ, that tells me something great.

And that, reaffirms the correct way of looking at Mary. We don’t worship her. So there should be no concern

It is the honor of her that is the key. Honoring her is suggested in scripture She is mentioned in our Creed and our Liturgy. You don’t have to hold a private devotion to her, but you can’t take her out of the equation.

 

[Monica4316]

I guess the answer would be that, we gain many graces when we come “to Jesus through Mary”, because of the power of her prayers

 

[At_Trent]

Personally, when I pray I sometimes pray to Jesus, and I sometimes pray to the Father. They are one.

Jesus said:

So when I say pray to the Father through Jesus, what I mean is praying to the Father and asking for something in Jesus’ name.

fair enough, nothing wrong with that view

 

[Ceil-1]

1. My concern is precisely that the Church has too much devotion, not that I lack devotion. It may be the other way around (humility dictates), but who knows? The Church can get hyperbolic; it isn’t perfect, except in preserving faith and morals.

1. Christ is not the one to whom we are going. He says this Himself. The Father is our end, and Christ is the way. We don’t need a “way” to Christ, since He is the very way we travel, right? The road begins where it begins, and there is no road leading to the first road. To call Mary the way to Christ is very confusing to me, because it seems to add a step which is not necessary. Did He not say “ask anything in my Name (God Saves) and it shall be given you”? I didn’t read "ask anything in Mary’s name and I will hear you

"!

---

It is not the Church that is in error. It is that you have not been instructed in the Faith.

 

[TuAutem]

I also see it as an extra step. Coming from Protestantism, I am used to going to Jesus. I don’t see a need to add an extra step. Maybe some cradle catholics were raised that way and that’s how they were taught to pray. But I personally believe I can pray to the Father through Jesus, directly. Not because I’m worthy, or holy but because Jesus said I could.

I used to feel this way too (a long time ago!). But I would suggest that prayer to Our Lady actually doesn’t work like an ‘extra step’, the way it might look on the surface. Have you ever found a group of people to pray with, maybe your congregation, or a prayer group of fellow Christians that you really care about? That corporate experience of prayer is so powerful, more powerful than praying alone, because of the way we are all joined together in the body of Christ. In fact, if you always wanted to pray alone and never corporately, that would be some sort of heresy because you would be denying that following Christ means being a part of that cloud of witnesses that profess Jesus as Lord. We cannot be Christians in isolation.

Over time I came to recognise too (both in head and heart), that death is no barrier to that sort of corporate prayer and support, because we are still all one body of believers in Christ. This is why we can support the dead with our prayers, and they can support us.

So asking someone to pray for you, be it someone you admire on earth or someone you admire in heaven, is not an extra ‘step’–if I were to ask someone to pray for me on CAF because I was sick, that wouldn’t stop me from praying myself too!–rather it’s an expression of family love. We are all in this together, and we all support each other with prayers, whether its asking your friends to pray for you locally, online, or in heaven.

If I feel close to Catherine of Sienna or John Vianney when I’m praying for something, I will spontaneously ask them to pray for me, just because, through Christ, I feel close to them. And I admire and look up to them, and believe that their insights into the problem I’m facing will be particularly helpful.

And of all the saints, Mary is the one who is closest to Jesus. She had the closest relationship to Jesus, by far. She was chosen by God to receive the greatest blessing, meaning her will was the most perfectly attuned to God’s, and she is the one that Jesus from the cross told his beloved disciple to look to as Mother. Assumed into heaven and crowned queen, she is the living embodiment of the fulfillment of all Christ’s promises.

Given all that, I think it is impossible for any of the saints not to look up to Mary. Who would not want to be closer to Jesus, and more perfectly follow his will? Thus, I think devotion to Mary necessarily grows in us as we become more devout.

 

[TuAutem]

Is it possible to be a traditionalist and not pray to Mary every single day?

I think so. I know I just I posted above that I didn’t think it was possible to grow in love for Christ and not grow in devotion to Our Lady. But that devotion need not manifest itself in any particular prayer. Bl. John Henry Newman always had some reticence towards Marian devotion as a result of his Protestant upbringing, but he still did love Our Lady, and defended that he could do the one without doing the other:

“Such devotional manifestations in honour of our Lady had been my great crux as regards Catholicism; I say frankly, I do not fully enter into them now; I trust I do not love her the less, because I cannot enter into them.” (Apologia pro vita sua)

As for what’s ‘traditional’, I recommend the books “Mary and the Fathers of the Church” and “Mary in the Middle Ages” for a look at how Marian devotion existed and evolved in various centuries. They are scholarly books but I find them quite readable, and interesting. From the very early Church certain aspects of Marian devotion were quite important, as ways to defend orthodoxy. For instance the title “Mother of God” became important to combat the gnostic heresies that Christ was like an avatar of God, but not fully human. Emphasising Mary’s maternity was essential to bring home to people the reality of the Incarnation, and that Christ was both fully God and fully Man. The notion of Mary as a second Eve, as the fulfillment of God’s original design and destiny for mankind, was also developed from some of the very earliest Christian writings.

And so on and so forth, I can’t retrace the whole study here, but I do recommend looking into it. Ultimately every Marian doctrine and devotion can trace its root to bringing into relief some aspect of Christian truth; they owe their origins not to excesses, but to the Holy Spirit in the Church responding to excesses or errors that were threatening to lead people astray. (This has gone on right up until the modern era, with devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary being promoted by St. John Eudes, among other reasons, as a way to correct people from the errors of Jansenism.)

So, clearly, I think all such devotions have good reasons for existing, but I also think that knowing those reasons is important and useful. Especially since, if you think you have a reason not to, it may be because of some theological misunderstanding on your part–hopefully not the gnostic avatar one

And if some forms of Marian devotion resonate more than others, that is absolutely fine; there are many charisms in the Church, and even among religious orders dedicated to Our Lady, one finds a wide variety of ways in which this finds expression. There is nothing ‘one size fits all’ about it.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Litany of the Blessed Virgin [should be in your 62 Missal]

Lord have mercy.
Christ have mercy.
Lord have mercy.
Christ hear us.
Christ graciously hear us.
God the Father of Heaven, have mercy on us.
God the Son, Redeemer of the World, have mercy of us.
God the Holy Ghost have mercy on us.
Holy Trinity, one God, have mercy on us.
Holy Mary pray for us.
Holy mother of God, pray for us.
Holy Virgin of Virgins,
Mother of Christ,
Mother of Divine Grace,
Mother most pure
Mother most chaste,
Mother inviolate,
Mother undefiled,
Mother most amiable,
Mother most admirable,
Mother of good counsel,
Mother of our Creator,
Mother of our Saviour,
Virgin most prudent,
Virgin most venerable,
Virgin most renowned,
Virgin most powerful,
Virgin most faithful,
Mirror of justice,
Seat of wisdom,
Cause of our joy,
Spiritual vessel,
Vessel of honor,
Singular vessel of devotion,
Mystical Rose,
Tower of David,
Tower of Ivory,
House of Gold,
Ark of the covenant,
Gate of Heaven,
Morning star,
Health of the sick, pray for us.
Refuge of sinners,
Comforter of the afflicted,
Help of Christians,
Queen of Angels,
Queen of Patriarchs,
Queen of Prophets,
Queen of Apostles,
Queen of Martyrs,
Queen of Confessors,
Queen of Virgins,
Queen of all Saints,
Queen conceived without original sin,
Queen assumed into Heaven,
Queen of the most Holy Rosary,
Queen of Peace,
Lamb of God, who takest away the sins of the world, spare us, O Lord.
Lamb of God, who takest away the sins of the world, graciously hear us, O Lord.
Lamb of God, who takest away the sins of the world, have mercy on us.
V. Pray for us, O Holy Mother of God.
R. That we may be worthy of the promise’s of Christ.

Let us pray.
Grant, we beseech Thee, O Lord God, that we, Thy servants, may enjoy perpetual health of soul and body: and by the glorious intercession of blessed Mary, ever Virgin, may be delivered from the present sorrows and may rejoice in happiness eternal.
Through Christ our Lord.

Amen.

Whatever do you mean about the Blessed Virgin Mother of God?

Peace

 

[TimothyH]

Several things to flesh out which bother me about it:

1. My concern is precisely that the Church has too much devotion, not that I lack devotion. It may be the other way around (humility dictates), but who knows? The Church can get hyperbolic; it isn’t perfect, except in preserving faith and morals.
2. Christ is not the one to whom we are going. He says this Himself. The Father is our end, and Christ is the way. We don’t need a “way” to Christ, since He is the very way we travel, right? The road begins where it begins, and there is no road leading to the first road. To call Mary the way to Christ is very confusing to me, because it seems to add a step which is not necessary. Did He not say “ask anything in my Name (God Saves) and it shall be given you”? I didn’t read “ask anything in Mary’s name and I will hear you”!

I actually hesitated at using the term “Lack of devotion.” I changed it but couldn’t get the words to convey my message the way I wanted and so changed it back and submitted my post for the sake of expedience. Putting it in a negative connotation, that you “Lack” something which you should have is not what I wanted to communicate. Please forgive.

I would go further than recommending devotion to Mary. I would recommend total consecration of yourself to Mary. No less of a man than Blessed Pope John Paul II said that his total consecration to Mary was the turning point of his spiritual life. The fact is, whether you or any other Christian in the world realize it or not, every grace you have now came to you through Mary. Every conversion to Christ comes through Mary. Even Bl. John Henry Newman’s conversion and eventual sainthood came to him through Mary.

To all who feel Mary is in the way of Christ, recall how so many Protestants claim the same about priests and about the very Catholic Church itself, that priests and the Church have artificially inserted themselves between a man and his relationship with Jesus. Is this not the reverse of what is actually the case - that priests and the Church augment, embellish and magnify our relationship to Christ? The same is true of Mary, but infinitely more so.

Mary even said, “My soul magnifies the Lord” (Luke 1:46). What more is there to say?

-Tim-