I condemn no one, I love you all my brothers and sisters. You keep openly condemning yourselves, though!
Self-effacement only goes so far until it makes no sense.
I am not worthy to approach such a king, he through whom the whole universe was created and is held in existence.
You
are worthy to approach such a King. Look at the Collect for the Feast of Christ the King, 1962:
“Almighty and everlasting God, Who in Thy beloved Son, the King of the whole world, hast willed to restore all things, mercifully grant that all the families of nations now kept apart by the wound of sin, may be brought under the sweet yoke of His rule: Who with Thee liveth and reigneth.”
Now, you may object that this is just for the priest to say, but it is a human prayer nonetheless. Many CAF members are holier than some priests, I’m sure, and they could say this prayer with ease. We can all say it, because Christ’s holy incarnation, nativity, and advent unto us has cleansed humanity. The divine was united fully to the human: not only in Christ, but in a way that lifted humanity up out of the dregs we had plunged into! We are worthy to pray to the Father now because we’ve been justified by Christ! I think that’s what the Church teaches. We don’t strictly require Maria’s help to open the way to God.
I am opposed to this extreme devotion because it seems, to me, to be the beginnings of a misunderstanding of Christ’s redeeming mission. As haughty as it may sound of me: this attitude about our lowliness can lead to heresy, not believing Christ has ontologically changed the course of history. We’re not the ancient Jews; we’re baptised, in Christ, right?
The rocks don’t sin but I sin, and so even the rocks in my backyard have more merit before God than I. And so I ask permission from my Mother and your Mother the Queen to enter the King’s throne room. And Mary’s will is perfectly conformed to God’s will. What she asks for, Jesus grants her, because she does not ask for anything which is not according to God’s will. Mary asks Jesus if I may enter, introduces me, and grants me an audience with her son. What’s better than that?
The things you say about her can be applied to any of the saints. How is St. Francis not now perfectly conformed to God’s will? Ignatius does nothing and asks nothing that is out of accord with His majestic and noble rule. Any of the saints may do this. What we are to do, as earthly saints (as St. Paul calls us), is come to Christ directly, or perhaps allow Him to knock on the door? Revelation doesn’t say He’ll bring a welcoming party (though I
would like to try the bl. Virgin’s cooking if He does bring her along at the End!!!)
Your contentions and hopes and dreams are good and righteous. I don’t want to destroy them or attack them…
And I don’t see why anyone would be bothered about the way I or anyone else prays when kneeling in adoration. That anxiety is coming from somewhere. Perhaps it bothers you because you are resisting?
Dear fellow! I’m not bothered by the way you or anyone else prays. My concern is the overall atmosphere of the devotion among and within the Body of Christ. Is it wrong to want to see right worship prevail, even if my idea is wrong? St. Thomas says the conscience that is incorrect, but still convicted of itself, cannot be considered evil when it does something wrong, because it did not know, and thought it was doing right.
It doesn’t bother me because I’m resisting it; I’m resisting it because it bothers me.
I converted because of Jesus Christ alone, leading me to the Father in the Scriptures. I paid almost no attention to the bl. Virgin, except by thanking her in prayers for humbly allowing God a way into the world as Man. Beyond this, I was quite sure her role was over, and that was that.
…] So clearly, such belief about Mary does go back to the very early church, and if someone as early and prominent as Irenaeus can call Mary “the cause of salvation for the whole human race” (and no other authors ever picked on him for it), then that belief, that type of language, must be consistent with the apostolic preaching. This is even stronger language than calling her a gate!
I never said anything to the contrary. She is indeed the cause of our salvation, but that event was 2000 years ago. Perpetual virgin she is, ever the Mother of God, but the specific moment in which she gave God a man is passed. It happened in time, not in eternity (for humanity, anyway), and it is over. God is now man, incarnate for eternity, and that has something to do with our salvation as we enter the judgment hall.
My belief mirrors what Irenaeus said, but he was proving a point about Christ’s bodily reality and carnal nature in a book specifically directed to those who would deny such things. He says nothing more about devotion to or adoration of the blessed Virgin, even if it is implied (perhaps).
